A Potentially Feasible Cave System Proposal

[Simorth]

This cave system would consist modeled segments with designated connection points placed in a 3d grid space, the diagrams I have made for this demonstration are in 2D however the concept would still work with the 3rd dimension added.

Segments
The system would contain a number of segments with variations designed to attach at various points, these segments would be designed so that they could be rotated / flipped and colours changed to add additional variation with less work (and system resources)

Below are just some examples of possible segments (green lines designate connection points)

Generating the Cave
To start the cave a cave entrance would be place at random on a plant surface, you could then sample some points around the selected location to determine the the general direction of the terrain, pick a suitable entrance and cut a hole into the surfaces heightmap

From the selected cave point you would then begin by construct a grid around the area, and making any areas that intersect with the terrain as invalid

From here you would begin constructing the cave from the connection points selecting segments at random (could have various probabilities attached to different segments) and checking if the segment can fit, and if not selecting a different segment (at a certain number of tries it would just terminate the end)

this would continue to go though to build out the rest of the cave until all the connection points terminate, some points may reach the surface where a another cave entrance may be suitable to place, otherwise it would just terminate

Possible Gameplay Additions
Several gameplay opportunities could be added with the addition of caves such as hand mining for rare valuable materials, and combat with underground pirate bases, or potential hostile alien life (or benign for the exobiologists)

Possible Gameplay Issues
There are a couple of possible gameplay issues that I can see with caves, 1. being stranded and unable to get out of a cave, and 2. running out of oxygen and unable to get back in time to restock if the cave gets too deep

1: Although commanders are equipped with jetpacks, they still may find it hard to navigate on high g worlds, or have suits with poor thruster energy such as the dominator suits, so a potential solution I can see is the addition of a grappling tool could be added to assist in any climbing issues

2: hand minable materials and on foot synthesis could be added so that you could mine or collect materials that can be used to recharge your suit

Final Notes
Anyway that's my proposal for a way to add caves to elite dangerous, please feel free to pick holes in it, add additional ideas to it, or post your own potential system

 

[varonica]

Watch the CIG cave creation video.

 

[ebbrell]

I wish, this could make exploration on foot interesting.
Hand mine extract special materials and objects.

Even thargoid on foot combat if it ever appears

 

[LeoBartlet]

Final Notes
Anyway that's my proposal for a way to add caves to elite dangerous, please feel free to pick holes in it, add additional ideas to it, or post your own potential system

The planets are glorified height maps and the engine can't support caves as far as we know.

 

[varonica]

The planets are glorified height maps and the engine can't support caves as far as we know.

Already tried that approach on another thread!

 

[Factabulous]

Will we be able to sit down in caves? I think that could be the killer app for caves - being able to sit. And have a drink probably.

 

[Rubbernuke]

You can have hand built cave systems- surface bases have (most times) a gap in the surface mesh and could be adapted. Thargoid bases do something similar.

Building a whole new cave system that works with the geological processes in the Forge would be quite a challenge.

 

[Simorth]

The planets are glorified height maps and the engine can't support caves as far as we know.

The game already has caves in several locations, some planetary ports as one example, and Thargoid structures as another, both of these locations allow you travel under the heightmap terrain, and they do this the same way most games that have cave where they utilise heightmaps for terrain, by using a 3D model for the cave and cutting holes in the heightmap where the cave entrances will be (basically what I have suggested in this proposal)

Watch the CIG cave creation video.

I had a look at some and am not sure of what point you are trying to make, you're going to have to be more specific on what I'm meant to be looking for and maybe which specific video you are referring to

 

[Simorth]

Will we be able to sit down in caves? I think that could be the killer app for caves - being able to sit. And have a drink probably.

well they are adding chairs to fleet carriers so I don't see why not

 

[varonica]

The game already has caves in several locations, some planetary ports as one example, and Thargoid structures as another, both of these locations allow you travel under the heightmap terrain, and they do this the same way most games that make cave where heightmaps are used by using a 3D model for the cave and cutting holes in the heightmap where the cave entrances are (basically what I have suggested in this proposal)

I had a look at some and am not sure of what point you are trying to make, you're going to have to be more specific on what I'm meant to be looking for and maybe which specific video you are referring to

That had an entire video about creating the caves, using pre-made sections and joining them together randomly, your entire idea seems to be exactly the same, except that the planets in SC are hand made and there are very few of them so it's a practical thing to do.

 

[Florenus]

I don't see the point in making whole thread about cave ganeration methods. Not that it hurts, just seems pointless.
I think Fdevs can easily figure it out themselves - especially after determining whether it's even doable or worthwhile in this engine we currently have.

Caves would be nice, yes.
I'm not holding my breath though.

 

[varonica]

Of course all this is pretty immaterial, FDEV have repeatedly stated every time the question has been asked that the planetary tech doesn't support caves, I have asked a few times myself. It's their custom engine being used to create the planets, I should think they would know if it could be done. I really don't think you are proposing anything "new" or amazing here, as I said the entire system seems, apart from being pretty simplistic, a copy of the method used in Star Citizen.

Your original post covers none of the major objections raised in the other thread, it appears to have major editing of the height map to insert your cave system, and this simply can't be done for proceduraly generated planets. Yes it's possible to insert caves made in the same way as planetary ports, but that requires hand editing the planet surface to insert the caves and that can't be done for the vast majority of systems in the galaxy, so you would end up with a small group of relatively similar caves on a few systems in the bubble or Colonia. That would be just....silly.

If they are going to do cave systems, they need to be done properly, and this isn't what I would call done properly

 

[Simorth]

That had an entire video about creating the caves, using pre-made sections and joining them together randomly, your entire idea seems to be exactly the same, except that the planets in SC are hand made and there are very few of them so it's a practical thing to do.

Ah ok, yes I did notice they used the same principle that I presented here, so what your saying is there is already a proof of concept!

But jokes aside, although Star Citizen surface are hand crafted, but hand crafting something in reality just contributes to making the environment look better (and maybe just making it more navigable, since they don't have jetpacks and the movement in SC is more restrictive in nature), so you could still do procedural caves, they just may not look as good as the ones that have been hand crafted

You can have hand built cave systems- surface bases have (most times) a gap in the surface mesh and could be adapted. Thargoid bases do something similar.

Building a whole new cave system that works with the geological processes in the Forge would be quite a challenge.

You could cover most issues with just having sufficient rules in it's generation, since caves would mostly be underground, you really just have to ensure three things are meet, one you can get into the cave, and two the cave doesn't go above the ground, and thirdly it looks decent, it would be more challenging to try and make overhangs using models, as you would need to figure out a good way to place them and where to place them, and how would you place them, what edge cases would there be etc.

I don't see the point in making whole thread about cave ganeration methods. Not that it hurts, just seems pointless.
I think Fdevs can easily figure it out themselves - especially after determining whether it's even doable or worthwhile in this engine we currently have.

Caves would be nice, yes.
I'm not holding my breath though.

I agree, FDev would easily be able to figure it out for themselves, I made this post for two purposes, one to suggest caves be added but also to show people who rule out caves because they have come the conclusion that it can't be done whether that be because of heightmaps, the tech cant handle it or some other reason, and so this is just a way of saying, Actually, yes, they can be done, and here is a way that they could be done.

 

[Simorth]

Of course all this is pretty immaterial, FDEV have repeatedly stated every time the question has been asked that the planetary tech doesn't support caves, I have asked a few times myself. It's their custom engine being used to create the planets, I should think they would know if it could be done. I really don't think you are proposing anything "new" or amazing here, as I said the entire system seems, apart from being pretty simplistic, a copy of the method used in Star Citizen.

Your original post covers none of the major objections raised in the other thread, it appears to have major editing of the height map to insert your cave system, and this simply can't be done for proceduraly generated planets. Yes it's possible to insert caves made in the same way as planetary ports, but that requires hand editing the planet surface to insert the caves and that can't be done for the vast majority of systems in the galaxy, so you would end up with a small group of relatively similar caves on a few systems in the bubble or Colonia. That would be just....silly.

If they are going to do cave systems, they need to be done properly, and this isn't what I would call done properly

There really would not be any editing of the heightmaps, save for the small cutout which could easily be done using Boolean operations

They would just need to add a cave pass after to the generation of planets to build them, as one you have the heightmap data, you could just randomly pick an amount of caves to place determined on some factors such as planet size, pick a place and run the cave generation processes to build the model and just place it, since the universe is static you only really need to do the generation process once, could even be done on a separate server from the game, and then they system would just load the generated cave data from a database (speaking of which and on a semi-off topic note, does any body know how they store the planets? are they stored just a set of parameters with a set seed, do they store the hightmaps, or some other method?)

oh and they randomly place assets on the planet all the time, all those random signal sources on planets that you can visit

 

[varonica]

(speaking of which and on a semi-off topic note, does any body know how they store the planets? are they stored just a set of parameters with a set seed, do they store the hightmaps, or some other method?)

oh and they randomly place assets on the planet all the time, all those random signal sources on planets that you can visit

Oh dear, oh deary deary me.......

They don't "STORE" the planets they are proceduarally generated using a key derived from the data supplied by the stellar forge, every time a player enters a system the planets are generated from this data, it all happens live, even the key is never stored but generated again every time a player jumps into a system, that's why making changes to the Stellar Forge can potentially change every system in the galaxy. It's never actually "stored" anywhere! I mean really? Here you are proposing a "cave system" and you don't even understand how they generate the planets?

And how many of those random signal sources are bugged, with hatches buried under the ground and objects floating and concealed by rocks. A lot of them, but they are small objects so they only need a small flat area and they don't in any way interact with the planet height map, well except for sometimes poking through it and being inaccessible! The same with plants and other objects like fumaroles and the surface rocks, they are sometimes often bugged, floating and sometimes buried, invisible as well. Be fun right, having a floating cave entrance!

Until a player enters a system and the seed is first run no-one knows what is in that system, not even FDEV. This is procedural generation, the fact you are only now asking that means you have been making suggestions for caves the entire time with zero understanding of how the planets are actually generated, so maybe you don't actually have an easy way to put caves onto planets.

 

[Factabulous]

Not sure the best argument against adding caves to a space game is the fact they don't understand the game ... probably something more like

 

[zikolach]

In general I like the idea of having more variety for planet surfaces, being so trenches, ravines, canyons etc.

Also speaking of procedural generation - if such a system can reproduce a crater of certains size on the same planet coordinates, why would it not be able to place cave entrance on the surface?

To me it is more of the question about development time and what game loops it can involve. Maybe less dev effort than developing ship interiors, but probably also less opportunities for gameplay.

 

[varonica]

In general I like the idea of having more variety for planet surfaces, being so trenches, ravines, canyons etc.

Also speaking of procedural generation - if such a system can reproduce a crater of certains size on the same planet coordinates, why would it not be able to place cave entrance on the surface?

To me it is more of the question about development time and what game loops it can involve. Maybe less dev effort than developing ship interiors, but probably also less opportunities for gameplay.

The crater is part of the height map, part of the planetary terrain, it's generated from running the seed that generates the system and planets, that's not difficult and it has to be in the same place every time because we are all running the same seed. A cave is an addition to the planet that's not generated from that seed because you can't generate caves using a height map, it would have to have its own seed like geo and bio. With the original geo sites the placement process had to find suitable areas for the geo site to actually be placed, but even then it often resulted in bizarre oddities like lava spouts poking out of the side of cliffs and fumarole floating in the air, it still happens sometimes.

So it's difficult enough placing small objects on the surface, a cave entrance isn't just an object, it needs to edit the height map to create an opening, but the height map doesn't actually exist until the seed is run so you don't know if there will be suitable locations, or enough, and I am not sure how you would go with trillions of planets and moons and a system that actually cuts into the height map completely unsupervised. I had plenty of fun falling through planetary surfaces when I first started playing Horizons, I don't think FDEV would ever set up an unsupervised system that edited the height map of planets that don't even exist.

FDEV have stated multiple times that the planetary tech doesn't support cave systems, I don't really think anyone here would know better than them, it's their engine, their game.

 

[BDelacroix]

Ah, the old dungeon master's trick of generating cave systems.

 

[zikolach]

The crater is part of the height map, part of the planetary terrain, it's generated from running the seed that generates the system and planets, that's not difficult and it has to be in the same place every time because we are all running the same seed. A cave is an addition to the planet that's not generated from that seed because you can't generate caves using a height map, it would have to have its own seed like geo and bio. With the original geo sites the placement process had to find suitable areas for the geo site to actually be placed, but even then it often resulted in bizarre oddities like lava spouts poking out of the side of cliffs and fumarole floating in the air, it still happens sometimes.

I imagine height map as some sort of 2d array of values from 0.0 to 1.0, and in current setup probably never reaching any end of the scale.
I see that having a height map is not possible (sort of) to make caves on the slopes of mountains.
But why could not caves entrances be areas on a map, where the level is lower than certain threshold (assuming that the threshold is low enough to make caves rare)? Like 3 middle cases in small sections row (see OP image).