A response to those who admonish "meta-gamers," "min-maxers," "people who want to progress," etc.

A response to those who admonish "meta-gamers," "min-maxers," "people who want to progress," etc.

First, I'd like to define what "meta" is with regards to games. "Meta" is some well-defined, well-tested, over-arching strategy in a game, though it is often used whenever a game's mechanics offer a select few, discrete, narrowly-defined viable strategies which stand far above any other strategies (e.g. E:D's "shield meta" is brought up often, because it refers to the narrow strategy of tanking shields, boosters, and SCB).

Meta isn't a necessarily problem in games - so long as there are indeed a variety of options for the player. The problem is that each of E:D's mechanics offer an extremely stringent meta. On top of that, those who do not follow this stringent meta are either put at a disadvantage or run the risk of progressing much more slowly.

For example, consider missiles. Once, they weren't as useless. When FD nerfed them to oblivion, we lost a whole set of "fun" combat builds (of course, you can still use missiles - I have fun with them sometimes, though running back to the station after every fight is not exactly fun for me). This has contributed to the current "shield-heavy," "lasers and maybe rails/MC" combat meta, which IMO is extremely stringent. For PVPers, not following the "meta" (at least in part) can mean death or just a bad fight. For PVEers, not following the "meta" can mean extreme inefficiency, and lack of progression.

Now, there are a number of vocal people on this forum who will bring up the following issues with the above:

- "I like the game where it is right now! Use your imagination if the limited options aren't enough for you!"
- "If you're thinking about progression, you're doing it wrong!"
- "I like puttering around in the same small ship for eternity, doing odd-jobs, etc.!"

It's great if you have fun playing like that! Of course, that will always be an option. However, not everyone wants to play like that. I'd even wager that the majority of players will, at some point, want to progress - simply because once you have exhausted the limited opportunities/environments at one stage, the only way to freshen them up is to experience them in a new ship, or with new modules. These things cost credits. At this point, you are faced with a choice - (1) do I "grind" for credits by doing repetitive things that I don't necessarily like, or (2) do I do "fun" things that make (significantly) less money. If you chose (1), you already following E:D's very stringent meta for credit-earning. If you picked (2), you might have fun for a bit - but, FD has dis-incentivized anything other than trade-grinding or repetitive combat to the point that you would have to do these "fun" options many, many more times to achieve the same amount of credits that you need for progression. This undoubtedly will end up being much more repetitive. No many how many "odd-jobs" you do, they will eventually start repeating - a lot.

My point is: There is something wrong with the game - not the players - when only a few viable options are given to the player. Min-maxers will always find the "best" options (this is true in any game) - the problem with E:D is that the "lesser" options that deviate from the meta are universally significantly worse. FD needs to properly balance options across the board (credit-earning, combat, ship builds, etc.) for this stringent meta to be shaken.
 
My point is: There is something wrong with the game - not the players - when only a few viable options are given to the player. Min-maxers will always find the "best" options (this is true in any game) - the problem with E:D is that the "lesser" options that deviate from the meta are universally significantly worse. FD needs to properly balance options across the board (credit-earning, combat, ship builds, etc.) for this stringent meta to be shaken.

I can take a mission to shlep cargo from one place to another and make credits (advance my character)
I can take a mission to kill a number of pirates/traders/civilians and make credits (advance my character)
I can ignore the mission boards and do some trading and make credits (advance my character)
I can mine and make credits (advance my character)
I can go explore and make credits (advance my character)
I can go sit at a nav beacon or resource site and bounty hunt npcs and make credits (advance my character)

They do not all make the same amount of credits and neither should they. Why? all take different amounts of effort in terms of time and/or credits to set a ship up for so there is no logical reason for them to make the same amount of credits otherwise the spreadsheet fiends will soon work out the most efficient way that takes the least effort and we are left with one profession as FOTM.

All of the above are viable ways of making credits, just because they do not make credits as quick as you would like does not make them broken, imbalanced or not viable.
 
First, I'd like to define what "meta" is with regards to games. "Meta" is some well-defined, well-tested, over-arching strategy in a game, though it is often used whenever a game's mechanics offer a select few, discrete, narrowly-defined viable strategies which stand far above any other strategies (e.g. E:D's "shield meta" is brought up often, because it refers to the narrow strategy of tanking shields, boosters, and SCB).

Meta isn't a necessarily problem in games - so long as there are indeed a variety of options for the player. The problem is that each of E:D's mechanics offer an extremely stringent meta. On top of that, those who do not follow this stringent meta are either put at a disadvantage or run the risk of progressing much more slowly.

For example, consider missiles. Once, they weren't as useless. When FD nerfed them to oblivion, we lost a whole set of "fun" combat builds (of course, you can still use missiles - I have fun with them sometimes, though running back to the station after every fight is not exactly fun for me). This has contributed to the current "shield-heavy," "lasers and maybe rails/MC" combat meta, which IMO is extremely stringent. For PVPers, not following the "meta" (at least in part) can mean death or just a bad fight. For PVEers, not following the "meta" can mean extreme inefficiency, and lack of progression.

Now, there are a number of vocal people on this forum who will bring up the following issues with the above:

- "I like the game where it is right now! Use your imagination if the limited options aren't enough for you!"
- "If you're thinking about progression, you're doing it wrong!"
- "I like puttering around in the same small ship for eternity, doing odd-jobs, etc.!"

It's great if you have fun playing like that! Of course, that will always be an option. However, not everyone wants to play like that. I'd even wager that the majority of players will, at some point, want to progress - simply because once you have exhausted the limited opportunities/environments at one stage, the only way to freshen them up is to experience them in a new ship, or with new modules. These things cost credits. At this point, you are faced with a choice - (1) do I "grind" for credits by doing repetitive things that I don't necessarily like, or (2) do I do "fun" things that make (significantly) less money. If you chose (1), you already following E:D's very stringent meta for credit-earning. If you picked (2), you might have fun for a bit - but, FD has dis-incentivized anything other than trade-grinding or repetitive combat to the point that you would have to do these "fun" options many, many more times to achieve the same amount of credits that you need for progression. This undoubtedly will end up being much more repetitive. No many how many "odd-jobs" you do, they will eventually start repeating - a lot.

My point is: There is something wrong with the game - not the players - when only a few viable options are given to the player. Min-maxers will always find the "best" options (this is true in any game) - the problem with E:D is that the "lesser" options that deviate from the meta are universally significantly worse. FD needs to properly balance options across the board (credit-earning, combat, ship builds, etc.) for this stringent meta to be shaken.

Listen to Unfluffydave; not what you'll want to do, but in my opinion he's spot on...
 
My understanding is that David Braben has said that all methods of profession are intended to be roughly balanced.

Having said that, the development team are adding new features at such a rate now that it would be largely pointless to spend a significant amount of time balancing when the next new features would require you to rebalance again. Balancing is a lot harder and takes a lot more time than you might think.

I work in software development and I suspect we'll see more attention being paid to balance once the dev team have the majority of their planned features in.

Having said *that*, I largely agree with the OP's frustration and think some more openness from FD would really help with the frustrations the player base are feeling at the moment.
 
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I can take a mission to shlep cargo from one place to another and make credits (advance my character)
I can take a mission to kill a number of pirates/traders/civilians and make credits (advance my character)
I can ignore the mission boards and do some trading and make credits (advance my character)
I can mine and make credits (advance my character)
I can go explore and make credits (advance my character)
I can go sit at a nav beacon or resource site and bounty hunt npcs and make credits (advance my character)

They do not all make the same amount of credits and neither should they. Why? all take different amounts of effort in terms of time and/or credits to set a ship up for so there is no logical reason for them to make the same amount of credits otherwise the spreadsheet fiends will soon work out the most efficient way that takes the least effort and we are left with one profession as FOTM.

All of the above are viable ways of making credits, just because they do not make credits as quick as you would like does not make them broken, imbalanced or not viable.

Viable for what?
It will take you weeks of work to make enough money fit out a Python or Anaconda mining, Months of exploring. Literal months is not viable for anyone with a life outside ED. Now I am not suggesting that everyone must aim for an Anaconda, but the rate at which you essentially unlock ships early game means that you will access the Cobra within basically the first 1% of play time, and there the game basically ends if you don't want to engage in meta-gaming/grinding. That is where the fundamental flaw is with Elite currently. Those that invest time into this game are punished for it.
 
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They do not all make the same amount of credits and neither should they. Why? all take different amounts of effort in terms of time and/or credits to set a ship up for so there is no logical reason for them to make the same amount of credits otherwise the spreadsheet fiends will soon work out the most efficient way that takes the least effort and we are left with one profession as FOTM.
"Spreadsheet fiends" - see? This is the kind of language I am talking about. Of course, such people exist in every game. But, are you seriously suggesting that leaving the professions/options unbalanced will somehow hinder that behavior? As it stands, the so-called "spreadsheet fiends" have it easy; trade is king (with RES in close second, but only for mid-to-low-range combat ships). No matter how much balance you do, there may be a profession/option that is "most efficient," but as long as you make the others close enough, people will still use them to earn money. I'm talking about giving players actual options; not the option "do this if you want to have fun, or do this if you want to make money."
 
Everything cant be balanced, in game or life, if youre only interested in profits/hour,trade. On the other hand you might have fun trying other stuff, and still make some credits.I do a little of everything and besides pirating all others ways of making credits are ok.
 
Now, there are a number of vocal people on this forum who will bring up the following issues with the above:

- "I like the game where it is right now! Use your imagination if the limited options aren't enough for you!"
- "If you're thinking about progression, you're doing it wrong!"
- "I like puttering around in the same small ship for eternity, doing odd-jobs, etc.!"

Funny I always felt that the most vocal players/forum users were saying the exact opposite.

Also, your argument about not getting into a grind fest (or following E:D's very stringent meta for credit-earning, as you call it) ultimately ending up into a much more repetitive game experience doesn't hold. I suggest you read again those three quotes you mentioned to understand why, because although they are criticizable, they give a pretty good idea as to how so many people do enjoy the game as it stands.

Lastly, and about say… shield meta. Well personally I don't get upset when blown up by a bigger/better ship or by another player, but when I come across a youtube video showcasing the efficiency of an Asp loaded with shields+shield cells+shield booster and nothing else, I can't help but thinking "how dull".

This is no reflexion on you, I respect the effort you put into your post. I'm simply not sold.
 
Viable for what?
It will take you weeks of work to make enough money fit out a Python or Anaconda mining, Months of exploring. Literal months is not viable for anyone with a life outside ED.

Huh? Why not? Is there some kind of rule in the UELA that I missed? Will I be banned after a certain number of months because I have a life? I have been playing since dec 16th and almost have enough for an FDL (technically could buy it if I sell my fleet). Took me half a year or so to get this far.

I think the main difference between meta-gamers (apart from the fact that the definition in the OP seems pretty... odd) and people like me is that we fundamentally differ on our idea of fun, and what the very purpose of games is. To me, it is not having a conda ASAP.
 
First, I'd like to define what "meta" is with regards to games. "Meta" is some well-defined, well-tested, over-arching strategy in a game, though it is often used whenever a game's mechanics offer a select few, discrete, narrowly-defined viable strategies which stand far above any other strategies (e.g. E:D's "shield meta" is brought up often, because it refers to the narrow strategy of tanking shields, boosters, and SCB).

Wikipedia says:

"
Metagaming is any strategy, action or method used in a game which transcends a prescribed ruleset, uses external factors to affect the game, or goes beyond the supposed limits or environment set by the game."

I'm not sure how anything I've ever done in Elite: Dangerous is transcending a prescribed ruleset. Would you please explain? Also - why does your definition differ so greatly from that in Wikipedia?

As an aside, and not specifically regarding your post, all this "meta" talk is starting to sound like a a lot of nonsense to me.

Cheers! :)

 
Wikipedia says:

"
Metagaming is any strategy, action or method used in a game which transcends a prescribed ruleset, uses external factors to affect the game, or goes beyond the supposed limits or environment set by the game."

I'm not sure how anything I've ever done in Elite: Dangerous is transcending a prescribed ruleset. Would you please explain? Also - why does your definition differ so greatly from that in Wikipedia?

As an aside, and not specifically regarding your post, all this "meta" talk is starting to sound like a a lot of nonsense to me.

Cheers! :)


Some people class "meta" as a form of 'emergent game play', which I think is one way of reading what Wikipedia is saying.

There's a video or two on YouTube of someone playing GTA V where they knock a huge ball-shaped sign off the top of a building. Then using vehicles along with game physics they get up to all sorts of mischief. This isn't necessarily directly designed by the developers, but the game allows it to occur nonetheless.

In Skyrim people would run up to the top of a mountain and spawn a thousand cabbages and create a cabbage avalanche. The developers didn't create vegetables or mountains with the idea that a player will set a thousand of them rolling down a hill. Yet the game enables that to occur nonetheless.

These are actions which transcend the pre-described rulesets of those games.

Leto is talking about another form of meta which is actions / ideas taken outside of the game, which can then affect the game itself. In this case using calculations and statictics to figure out the optimal way to play the game to achieve the maximum result for minimum input. He also uses the term min-maxing. Both terms are fine for describing this style of game play.
 
Huh? Why not? Is there some kind of rule in the UELA that I missed? Will I be banned after a certain number of months because I have a life? I have been playing since dec 16th and almost have enough for an FDL (technically could buy it if I sell my fleet). Took me half a year or so to get this far.

I think the main difference between meta-gamers (apart from the fact that the definition in the OP seems pretty... odd) and people like me is that we fundamentally differ on our idea of fun, and what the very purpose of games is. To me, it is not having a conda ASAP.

You make it sound like people want everything right now, which isn't the case. The problem is, in order to gain enough credits to purchase an Anaconda you need to be making 5-6mill per hour for a full 24hrs of play time. Then you need to multiply that by a factor of five to kit it out.

120hrs of play time to buy and build one ship.

That in its self isn't a problem for me. My issue is that the method for gaining those credits is incredibly tedious. There is no way to earn credits in a way that ISN'T grinding. Doing fluffy little missions here and there that bring in at best 250k for an hours play time is not viable. You'll simply never achieve what you want to achieve. Saying "Well don't get it then" is arrogant at best and a non-argument because at that point the ships might as well not be in the game.
 
Some people class "meta" as a form of 'emergent game play', which I think is one way of reading what Wikipedia is saying.

There's a video or two on YouTube of someone playing GTA V where they knock a huge ball-shaped sign off the top of a building. Then using vehicles along with game physics they get up to all sorts of mischief. This isn't necessarily directly designed by the developers, but the game allows it to occur nonetheless.

In Skyrim people would run up to the top of a mountain and spawn a thousand cabbages and create a cabbage avalanche. The developers didn't create vegetables or mountains with the idea that a player will set a thousand of them rolling down a hill. Yet the game enables that to occur nonetheless.

These are actions which transcend the pre-described rulesets of those games.

Leto is talking about another form of meta which is actions / ideas taken outside of the game, which can then affect the game itself. In this case using calculations and statictics to figure out the optimal way to play the game to achieve the maximum result for minimum input. He also uses the term min-maxing. Both terms are fine for describing this style of game play.

Indeed - your GTA and Skyrim examples fit the definition pretty well for me - not unlike the older definition of "hacking", using something for something other than its intended purpose to do something clever.

It seems pretty questionable to apply this to calculations/stats to figure out how to do something optimally - I'd say that's still very much part of the game, as-is. Elite is a spreadsheet game. Min-maxing, absolutely.

I'm just complaining because I think the word "meta" has been over-used and abused in the forums rather a lot lately, and also because I'm starting to get hungry - but my wife is in the process of sorting that out. :)
 
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I can take a mission to shlep cargo from one place to another and make credits (advance my character)
I can take a mission to kill a number of pirates/traders/civilians and make credits (advance my character)
I can ignore the mission boards and do some trading and make credits (advance my character)
I can mine and make credits (advance my character)
I can go explore and make credits (advance my character)
I can go sit at a nav beacon or resource site and bounty hunt npcs and make credits (advance my character)

They do not all make the same amount of credits and neither should they. Why? all take different amounts of effort in terms of time and/or credits to set a ship up for so there is no logical reason for them to make the same amount of credits otherwise the spreadsheet fiends will soon work out the most efficient way that takes the least effort and we are left with one profession as FOTM.

All of the above are viable ways of making credits, just because they do not make credits as quick as you would like does not make them broken, imbalanced or not viable.

You're missing the point though. The point is that the changes that "min-maxers" are suggesting are meant to bring more diversity, excitement, balance, and fun to the game. Right now if you want to mine you can enjoy making a pittance as far as credits are concerned. There's nothing stopping you from doing it of course, but why can't it be balanced to make ANYWHERE NEAR the amount of money you can make literally doing anything else? You also conveniently leave out the part where mining is the riskiest and least profitable profession by far. Trading takes little effort and has minimal risk and is by and far the most profitable profession, and even scales with ship advancement to boot.

I'm not even going to get into the combat meta right now, but the short of it is every battle is Elite: SCB. I hope a more knowledgeable player discusses the issues with it.....it'd be nice to equip things that aren't SCB's on my ship. I wasn't around when missiles were fun and I don't know if they'll ever be.
 
You're missing the point though. The point is that the changes that "min-maxers" are suggesting are meant to bring more diversity, excitement, balance, and fun to the game. Right now if you want to mine you can enjoy making a pittance as far as credits are concerned. There's nothing stopping you from doing it of course, but why can't it be balanced to make ANYWHERE NEAR the amount of money you can make literally doing anything else? You also conveniently leave out the part where mining is the riskiest and least profitable profession by far. Trading takes little effort and has minimal risk and is by and far the most profitable profession, and even scales with ship advancement to boot.

I'm not even going to get into the combat meta right now, but the short of it is every battle is Elite: SCB. I hope a more knowledgeable player discusses the issues with it.....it'd be nice to equip things that aren't SCB's on my ship. I wasn't around when missiles were fun and I don't know if they'll ever be.

I'd argue that CZ's are the riskiest ways to make money at the moment. Considering you can be ganked by a dozen ships as soon as you drop in...
 
You're missing the point though. The point is that the changes that "min-maxers" are suggesting are meant to bring more diversity, excitement, balance, and fun to the game. Right now if you want to mine you can enjoy making a pittance as far as credits are concerned. There's nothing stopping you from doing it of course, but why can't it be balanced to make ANYWHERE NEAR the amount of money you can make literally doing anything else? You also conveniently leave out the part where mining is the riskiest and least profitable profession by far. Trading takes little effort and has minimal risk and is by and far the most profitable profession, and even scales with ship advancement to boot.

I'm not even going to get into the combat meta right now, but the short of it is every battle is Elite: SCB. I hope a more knowledgeable player discusses the issues with it.....it'd be nice to equip things that aren't SCB's on my ship. I wasn't around when missiles were fun and I don't know if they'll ever be.

So min-maxers want to grind more efficiently, while enjoying the view? :)
 
It's true, we need interesting choices other than "do I make credits tonight or just stuff around?"

Imagine trading was the slowest but safest way to make credits, but mining was fast and dangerous. It'd be a real choice which one to do. You'd weigh up whether the risk was worth the extra profit. Choices like that are fun.

Or imagine if kinetic weapons ignored shields 50% and had more ammo, but modules were armoured. We would see a mix of weapons and internal slots being used for things other than shields and lasers. Need more armour and less SCBs, in case they have canons. Fight loadouts should be a case of rock paper scissors lizard Spock, with no best option, and every loadout being weak to a certain other loadout. Then, even with a top ship you'd always be wondering when you'd meet your match. The closest we have now is the 3 armour types which are bypassed by targeting.
 
No, they want to be able to partake in an activity that isn't suicide inducing in order to actually get anywhere in the game.

You know there is a middle ground.
I think the problem with Meta gamers/min-maxer/whatever is the attitude of if you aren't earning the absolute max CR/Hr then;
it isnt fun
you cannot have fun
no one else can have fun
It isnt possible to have fun
you're playing the game wrong
the game is wrong
the game is broken.
This game makes me want to commit suicide <- Your own words

And then you are surprised when people say
"Well perhaps you should go do something else."
Because either you are serious, and have a problem
Or you are screaming loudly with hyperbole using something that should NOT be joked about, trying to get your own way yet expecting people to not onlytake you seriously but give you what you want.
 
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