A response to those who admonish "meta-gamers," "min-maxers," "people who want to progress," etc.

Wikipedia says:

"
Metagaming is any strategy, action or method used in a game which transcends a prescribed ruleset, uses external factors to affect the game, or goes beyond the supposed limits or environment set by the game."

I'm not sure how anything I've ever done in Elite: Dangerous is transcending a prescribed ruleset. Would you please explain? Also - why does your definition differ so greatly from that in Wikipedia?

As an aside, and not specifically regarding your post, all this "meta" talk is starting to sound like a a lot of nonsense to me.

Cheers! :)


This has basically hit the nail on the head for what meta-gaming actually is. ED doesn't really have much scope for real meta-gaming as the players toolset is so specific, each component of play style being fairly binary (you either have or haven't, did or didn't/don't or do).

Best example I can find for metagaming is in competitive Starcraft. A player scouts another players base, the other player sees the scout and starts to build a structure that suggests they are going to make a certain type of unit. The scout thinks: "hmm, is he trying to make me think he's going to start building those unit's and then not? Or is that just what he want's me to think and he actually is?" Meanwhile the other player is thinking. "Has he bought it? what if he hasn't, maybe I should make those units for real. I'd better go and scout him."

In this example the games mechanics have nothing to do with how the game is being played, the game is now actually taking place in the players heads, the game has just become a toolset to mess with each other mentally.
 
Wikipedia says:

"
Metagaming is any strategy, action or method used in a game which transcends a prescribed ruleset, uses external factors to affect the game, or goes beyond the supposed limits or environment set by the game."

I'm not sure how anything I've ever done in Elite: Dangerous is transcending a prescribed ruleset. Would you please explain? Also - why does your definition differ so greatly from that in Wikipedia?

As an aside, and not specifically regarding your post, all this "meta" talk is starting to sound like a a lot of nonsense to me.

Cheers! :)


That's because Wikipedia's definition of metagaming applies to the word in the broadest sense of the term, and is actually more concerned with the term as it applies to roleplaying, and not 'meta' in the video gaming sense.
 
This has basically hit the nail on the head for what meta-gaming actually is. ED doesn't really have much scope for real meta-gaming as the players toolset is so specific, each component of play style being fairly binary (you either have or haven't, did or didn't/don't or do).

Best example I can find for metagaming is in competitive Starcraft. A player scouts another players base, the other player sees the scout and starts to build a structure that suggests they are going to make a certain type of unit. The scout thinks: "hmm, is he trying to make me think he's going to start building those unit's and then not? Or is that just what he want's me to think and he actually is?" Meanwhile the other player is thinking. "Has he bought it? what if he hasn't, maybe I should make those units for real. I'd better go and scout him."

In this example the games mechanics have nothing to do with how the game is being played, the game is now actually taking place in the players heads, the game has just become a toolset to mess with each other mentally.

I'm not sure that is an example of meta-gaming is it? I think that's more in-ruleset misdirection. It doesn't require you to be a human being sat in front of a computer knowing he's playing a game in order to make sense. It makes sense entirely in the context of the rule-set - I'm a commander and I've scouted the enemy base and I'm using that intelligence to infer their next move. Metagaming would be experimenting with build orders to advance through the tech-tree more quickly, or in ED, trying many different loadouts to figure out the most effective one in combat. Here, the meta game is: experimenting with loadouts. The game itself is: flying a ship with a particular loadout in combat. Meta games are games that sit on top of the normal game mechanics. Games about/within games.
 
This is precisely the sentiment the OP is talking about though. You're putting the blame on the players for becoming "fixated" on the "wrong" stuff. The reason people become fixated on progress (ships, credits, rank) is because the game lacks content - stuff to motivate you, stuff to do. This then descends into a pointless argument about imagination or "making your own fun," which is unnecessarily condescending and patronising, and doesn't move the argument on. In any case, I'm not so sure that being unable to fill the gaps the game leaves in terms of content is a failure of imagination on the part of the player. Some players, myself included, just can't get over the sense of disappointment which comes from the perceived "wasted opportunity" to create a "living breathing universe".

In these situations, Occam's razor applies: which is the simpler, and thus more plausible, explanation: large numbers of players are inexplicably "doing it wrong"? Or, the game isn't giving players anything "right" to do?

I think answer is very simple - no one's doing it wrong, it just might be wrong game for some people. Let me explain.

Major claim for min-maxer behavior is that there's no lot of content to start with. I don't agree that's the case, but I also don't believe it's very strong explanation why people look for min-maximizing in games. I think problem for min-maxers is that there's not much breathing space they can mock around within the game. I guess for them ED isn't a sandbox - well, it is, but isn't that reward total freedom experimenting. As some in this thread has pointed out they feel restricted in this game. There is full freedom to do whatever you like, but consequences are real nasty stuff that pulls them down.

And I think that's an issue here. When people say "open world sandbox space sim", for different players it means completely different things. For SC backer it means WoW/SWTOR like MMO just set in space (they love idea about automated landings, while regular ED player despise it being mandatory). For EVE player or Minecraft fanatic it means total control over events and stuff. However ED doesn't aim to be none of these things. It wants to be....hold on your hats....more like space captain's life simulation. Before you go "where's fun in that", that's not a point. There are people who look after such kind of escapism. Who doesn't look after being in control, just being in space, having adventure as they go around.

THAT'S biggest source of conflict I think. When people say 'use your imagination', it's not patronizing, it's suggestion. Elite for most of us has been role playing adventure. Do I want to see more tailored universe? Sure. However I believe FD is getting there with each release.
 
My understanding is that David Braben has said that all methods of profession are intended to be roughly balanced.

Having said that, the development team are adding new features at such a rate now that it would be largely pointless to spend a significant amount of time balancing when the next new features would require you to rebalance again. Balancing is a lot harder and takes a lot more time than you might think.

I work in software development and I suspect we'll see more attention being paid to balance once the dev team have the majority of their planned features in.

Having said *that*, I largely agree with the OP's frustration and think some more openness from FD would really help with the frustrations the player base are feeling at the moment.

That is the biggest cop-out i've ever heard, they will have to rebalance when they release the new things whatever the case. Its not a good idea however to make people sit with imbalance for years before that happens, especially when many of the cases of income disparity can be fixed with a miniscule amount of work, its like saying were gonna rebalance in a years time so I'm not gonna take the requisite 30 minutes to do it now. That logic is so awful Its 100% believable for FD :p

Sorry not targeted at you personally, your just post just frustrates me immensely as its the sort of thing FD would say.
 
I think answer is very simple - no one's doing it wrong, it just might be wrong game for some people. Let me explain.

Major claim for min-maxer behavior is that there's no lot of content to start with. I don't agree that's the case, but I also don't believe it's very strong explanation why people look for min-maximizing in games. I think problem for min-maxers is that there's not much breathing space they can mock around within the game. I guess for them ED isn't a sandbox - well, it is, but isn't that reward total freedom experimenting. As some in this thread has pointed out they feel restricted in this game. There is full freedom to do whatever you like, but consequences are real nasty stuff that pulls them down.

And I think that's an issue here. When people say "open world sandbox space sim", for different players it means completely different things. For SC backer it means WoW/SWTOR like MMO just set in space (they love idea about automated landings, while regular ED player despise it being mandatory). For EVE player or Minecraft fanatic it means total control over events and stuff. However ED doesn't aim to be none of these things. It wants to be....hold on your hats....more like space captain's life simulation. Before you go "where's fun in that", that's not a point. There are people who look after such kind of escapism. Who doesn't look after being in control, just being in space, having adventure as they go around.

THAT'S biggest source of conflict I think. When people say 'use your imagination', it's not patronizing, it's suggestion. Elite for most of us has been role playing adventure. Do I want to see more tailored universe? Sure. However I believe FD is getting there with each release.

I think we're talking about two slightly different things. Min-maxing and complaints about particular careers being less profitable etc, are the symptom, not the disease. The disease is credit fixation, and the cause of THAT is a lack of stuff to do. That was my point. In a world where gameplay choices are vast, where there is involving content, where there are adventures aplenty, your bank balance is incidental. You probably always have just about enough to get where you want to get to, to buy new gear for new missions as and when you need it, which prevents it from becoming the thing you focus on at the exclusion of everything else. Sure, you might do some stuff on the side to save up for some slightly better gear, just like you might side-quest to get some decent loot in an RPG, but credits themselves are a sideline, not the main focus.

The problem with ED at the moment is precisely that it isn't a "space captain's life" simulator at all. I think most of the people who have become fixated on credits and thus are now complaining about balance issues, would love the game if it were that. Being a realistic simulation of life as a space captain requires more than just a decent flight model and good combat. It requires immersion. Real characters to interact with, real economy, real politics (not just coloured blob board games), real missions and real objectives. It requires diverse and realistic gameplay. It requires things like exploration to be more than just point and shoot gameplay (or, as the case may be, not even shoot, just point). It requires careful thought as to what sort of things a space captain might be doing every day, and how can we make them interesting? Like, for example, salvaging from space-wrecks, discovering abandoned stations, and a lot more besides. To give another example, RES sites should be realistic industrial areas with dynamic events, not just waypoints for random independent miners to drop into for no discernible reason. It is this thin veneer of "life as a space captain" simulation that leads people feeling like the only thing to do is grind for credits.

And that's the problem with imagination, as someone said elsewhere: when I drop in to a RES, I can imagine it being a much better proxy for a futuristic mining site than it actually is, and thus, my immersion is broken. That is a stumbling block that many can't get over. Maybe you're right, and that just means it isn't the game for them.
 
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Viable for what?
It will take you weeks of work to make enough money fit out a Python or Anaconda mining, Months of exploring. Literal months is not viable for anyone with a life outside ED. Now I am not suggesting that everyone must aim for an Anaconda, but the rate at which you essentially unlock ships early game means that you will access the Cobra within basically the first 1% of play time, and there the game basically ends if you don't want to engage in meta-gaming/grinding. That is where the fundamental flaw is with Elite currently. Those that invest time into this game are punished for it.

This is closer to what we ED should be thinking about, like the backers for this game. Once you have got your ships and more CR than you will ever use what next?
Maybe real jobs. A term/contact as a cop or maybe salvage rights for a system clear up (Someone doing this found Ripley in Aliens).

I am no where near getting Anaconda, and personally do not want one. Prefer Python. But I have to ask what else is coming to keep my interest in ED beyond just getting more CR, more ships,ranks and just exploring (Which I enjoy as change of pace).

Here's another interesting point, ALL commanders should be dead. Why? Not eaten or drunk anything since they started. i.e. no living expenses.
 
You also conveniently leave out the part where mining is the riskiest and least profitable profession by far.

Mining isn't risky if you know what you are doing (ie: use the meta). Its also quite profitable, probably more profitable than piracy and exploring once you have a big ship.
 
This is closer to what we ED should be thinking about, like the backers for this game. Once you have got your ships and more CR than you will ever use what next?
Maybe real jobs. A term/contact as a cop or maybe salvage rights for a system clear up (Someone doing this found Ripley in Aliens).

I am no where near getting Anaconda, and personally do not want one. Prefer Python. But I have to ask what else is coming to keep my interest in ED beyond just getting more CR, more ships,ranks and just exploring (Which I enjoy as change of pace).

Here's another interesting point, ALL commanders should be dead. Why? Not eaten or drunk anything since they started. i.e. no living expenses.
I agree with you; this game definitely needs more late-game content.

If you are making a gameplay suggestion, I don't agree with your "interesting point," though. Hunger mechanics hardly ever are good features, and these "living expenses" would only exist to create more tedium for a player. Besides, this is a space sim - we don't need to simulate every aspect of the CMDR's personal life.
 
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