A Skilled 'Wormhole' Jump To Previously Visited Nav Beacons Would Improve The Game

[VR Golgot]

I think the following form of optional, risky, 'faster travel' would improve the game on balance:


THE CORE IDEA:

• Having visited a habited system and scanned its Nav Beacon you can use it as an arrival destination in future.
• 'Wormhole' transit would have to be dangerous and require piloting skill to execute. (IE staying within the confines of a conduit tunnel, with damage caused by proximity to its edges, and extreme damage and potential marooning the outcome if you leave the envelope completely).
• The further the destination, the longer the skill game, the greater the risks.

POSSIBLE EXTRAS:

• For the path to vary in a way that reflects the geography it's passing through, allowing Stellar Forge to help drive the variety in the pathing.
• For plotting to be possible to try and establish preferable routes. (Possibly allowing you to eyeball the route and get an idea of the trickiest sections in advance).
• Branching as a challenge, with certain routes being longer than others, and the shorter paths requiring greater skill to make the turns.
• Wormhole jumps only being possible from key locations, making them hubs of activity.
• For ship mass to play a key role in mobility within the conduit. (IE so heavily loaded trade barges & armoured combat beasts would be at real risk).

RESULT:

• A risky, potentially deadly, option for those who dislike the sheer amount of transit time to reach gameplay opportunities within the bubble.
• A system that still preserves the benefits of slow-boating. IE the actual act of exploration etc, along with improved odds of survival.

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THOUGHTS?

• As a bubble / combat / trade focused player, would such an addition improve your gameplay experience?
• As an exploration focused player, would such an addition impact your own experience in an overly negative way? (Or potentially benefit it in any way?)

CAVEAT:

• This Braben quote (p17) suggests having the system stretch out beyond the Bubble significantly would be frowned upon. But given the focus here is Bubble transit think this is still a mechanic that FDev might consider. Personally I'd be fine with it only being operable within those parameters.

 

[Lestat]

Should this not be in Suggestions. Not in Discussion? Yes, you are trying to make some type of Teleportation but it still the Wrong forum.

When I pointed out Mining made Elite Traders fast. It was not a suggestion. It was an issue I wanted Frontier to look at.

Now that it on the Right Forum. Here what helps players if they use galaxy map and System map before accepting missions. We don't need teleportation or wormholes. Note Wormholes Been talk about by David Braben He doses not want them.

 

[Stabby_Dave]

........ and if DB don't want 'em, we aint getting 'em.

 

[Kenneth McGrew]

waste of time - the bubble can to be traversed in a handful of jumps, it takes like 15 minutes in a fully engineered heavy brick from one side to the other, you can even supercharge your brick in the bubble, and why anyone would require to wormhole between Nav beacons is bizarre...

as an explorer the places i visit dont have nav beacons.
as a combat player there is a system typically within 20ly i can do something in - be that PVP & more so PVE
As a trade pilot my systems are one jump apart for max profit - EDDB.io hundreds of one stop shops

Other than transporting you to colonia or Sag A in a matter of seconds it feels very pointless to me - my opinion of course.

 

[VR Golgot]

Now that it on the Right Forum. Here what helps players if they use galaxy map and System map before accepting missions.

This doesn't really relate to missions. My complaint on transit for combat craft within the bubble would more be about the sheer number of jumps to merely go shopping, or reach a point of interest such as a CG etc.

We don't need teleportation or wormholes. Note Wormholes Been talk about by David Braben He doses not want them.

........ and if DB don't want 'em, we aint getting 'em.

Can you guys source me a quote on this? I can't find anything from DB on this relating to ED at the moment.

 

[RexKraemer]

Sticking to the exact topic (no side notes to the reasons of this suggestions or to what David Braben thinks about it):

I would like that.
I would add some risk, which is purely random, which could harm you despite perfect skills. The grade of harm and the chances can be discussed by length, but this would be FDevs choice anyway, so I let this out. I generally tend to the extrems at this questions: lethal with non neglectable chance, but I know, it should be not so extreme.

The idea would not harm the game as it is now, but would add a dimension, e.g. fast but risky travel to squadron members in distress.
The balance between risk and time would be crucial for this to work.

What OP described would be the risky mhole travel without technical support. We could add technical supported long distance travel, a stargate in the bubble and e.g. one in Colonia. Clearly this should be expensive for the whole gaming community, like (again I tend to the extremes) ressources needed measured in years if, lets say 20% of the player base would take part in this effort. (Yes, clearly arguable, FDev would decide anyways).

But, on the other side, it could get wrong if Fdev takes the wrong decisions, and we would clearly discuss the results in excess here no matter what FDev would have given to us. But I like this, for me it is part of the complete game experience

 

[Ian Doncaster]

There is already a "fast travel to specific points" mechanism within the bubble, of course. It's mainly used accidentally by people complaining that they didn't mean to.

Get a token bounty, hand yourself in (or if you're in a real hurry and money is not an issue, just let yourself be shot down), be transported to the nearest detention centre of the appropriate superpower. With correct planning - a 3rd party site could allow this to be outsourced so you didn't spend more time planning the route than it would have taken to jump there conventionally! - there are some interesting fast travel routes which don't necessarily depend on your own ship's jump range.

.....

Anyway, on to the original idea:

For within-bubble transport, I'd support something like this. We spend quite a lot of time in hyperspace, it's not that interesting, and while it serves a purpose as a loading screen, that doesn't mean it can't do other things as well. (It may well mean, however, that there's an extended success/failure cutscene at the end to cover the actual loading once it knows where you've ended up!)

It would need a definite risk-reward balance, though - getting beyond the ~40 LY you could make with a conventional jump in a fast multi-role ship should require a lot of practice and a lot of ships needing expensive repairs getting that skill in the first place.


For out-of-bubble transport I don't think this should be viable except in minority cases (e.g. you'd probably be able to use it between the pair of settlements at Heart and Soul Nebula). Requiring a nav beacon to already be there helps - if the tunnel got extremely unstable after ~500 LY range, such that it was basically impossible to continue, it would be useful for transport within the bubble - and even as far as the Pleiades, but you'd have to use the existing neutron jumps, etc. for travel outside the bubble.

.....

Having spent the last 2.5 years in Colonia, I think the underlying problem that the game has is that there are too many competing factors on "how big the bubble should be".

Out in Colonia, the size of the inhabited region is ~100 LY diameter. You can get from one engineer to another in a single jump in many ships, and even with just a 20LY range you can cross the entire bubble in 6 jumps (or two, if one of them can be neutron-boosted)

If the main Sol bubble was only that size, there would be about 1200 systems within it, about 600 of them actually inhabited (comparable to the size of inhabited space in FE2)
- for any individual player, there would still be plenty of space and more systems than they would be likely to visit
- the superpowers would still have lots of systems
- the average distance between engineers would be a couple of jumps
- you'd basically already have "fast travel" because it would take five minutes of jumping to get from one edge to the other even in a slow ship - or maybe a minute in a fast one
- the importance of individual systems would be much higher: the Thargoid's "six systems a week" pace would be a major threat rather than a minor background detail. Even their original 2/week pace would have been threatening.
...but...
- there are already over 1800 PMFs, so 600 inhabited systems would be far too small. The territory would have been carved up between a few of the bigger and better organised groups long ago, with new PMFs having nowhere to go.
- rares trading just wouldn't work. If everywhere is nearby, distance-based pricing makes no sense
- they'd have needed to retcon the Alliance and Empire home systems from FE2/FFE, and Imperial space would basically have ended up entirely consisting of brown dwarf stars.
...and anyway, it's too late to change it now.

But with different game mechanics needing different jump ranges and bubble sizes, the whole thing is always going to be a messy compromise.

 

[VR Golgot]

waste of time - the bubble can to be traversed in a handful of jumps, it takes like 15 minutes in a fully engineered heavy brick from one side to the other, you can even supercharge your brick in the bubble, and why anyone would require to wormhole between Nav beacons is bizarre...

It's not a handful. Like you say, it can be 15 minutes plus, easily. If I want to take my combat Conda (with G5 engineered FSD & Guardian FSD booster) around the bubble to points of interest (CGs, Engineers, down to Merope for Tharg baiting etc), then it can be 20+ jumps.

as an explorer the places i visit dont have nav beacons.
as a combat player there is a system typically within 20ly i can do something in - be that PVP & more so PVE
As a trade pilot my systems are one jump apart for max profit - EDDB.io hundreds of one stop shops

Other than transporting you to colonia or Sag A in a matter of seconds it feels very pointless to me - my opinion of course.

Exactly the point on Explo. It wouldn't impact on standard exploration and it's designed not to, to preserve that aspect that explo players like.

The jaunt to Colonia, then Sag A, would be incredibly risky by design, not a jump of seconds. Read the brief again

On combat vehicles, although some aspects can be available within easy reach, there are plenty that aren't necessarily. CGs, unique locations such as the those in the Pleiades that are designed for combat encounters etc.

On trade it could open up new options IE trying to take technical equipment to terraforming worlds, but risking it all given the impact of your load on your trade barge's already poor mobility in the conduit. (Rares would be a tricky one though, given the lower quantities wouldn't imperil your steering so much. Need to think on that one.)

 

[VR Golgot]

For out-of-bubble transport I don't think this should be viable except in minority cases (e.g. you'd probably be able to use it between the pair of settlements at Heart and Soul Nebula). Requiring a nav beacon to already be there helps - if the tunnel got extremely unstable after ~500 LY range, such that it was basically impossible to continue, it would be useful for transport within the bubble - and even as far as the Pleiades, but you'd have to use the existing neutron jumps, etc. for travel outside the bubble

Yep absolutely, I think any jaunt pitching for the distant settlements should be super risky, with increasing risk the longer the distance.

Instability is an interesting option for sure! (I'd like a version where the tunnel itself actually flexed and moved with increasing volatility, leaving you with an agonising 'Oh god was this a good idea' moment as you neared the end of a judiciously chosen jump )

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EDIT: Soz didn't mean to ignore your Colonia example. The disparate bubble sizes is an ongoing issue re balance for sure. I think in this case the system would work out ok though (IE in the bubble it would have utility, but in Colonia it wouldn't be worth the risk so would be rarely used etc).

 

[Stealthie]

Not entirely sure what the OP is suggesting, TBH.

If the idea is that players could set specific arrival-points in a system, I'd be against that.
The whole point of things like CGs is that you arrive at the nav-beacon and you're vulnerable to attack as you travel to your destination.
The ability to travel directly to a chosen arrival-point in a system would completely negate the ability interdict ships in-system.

If we're talking about the ability to jump long distances quickly then I'm not really sure what the OP is hoping for.
I mean, if I was to try and do a "wormhole jump" from Sol to Colonia, would I be expected to play the "wormhole mini-game" for a couple of hours while my ship travelled the 20KLy?
Also, given how interdictions work, I can't help thinking that something like this would end up simply being "easy mode" for those who currently have ships that can't travel quickly.

Lastly, there's the lore issue.
If FDev decide that travelling around, in the ED universe, is done between nav-buoys using an FSD that carries out jumps based on a ship's mass then that's the way it is.
If you can't accept that, go find a game that has a fast-travel system you do approve of.

 

[VR Golgot]

Not entirely sure what the OP is suggesting, TBH.

If the idea is that players could set specific arrival-points in a system, I'd be against that.
The whole point of things like CGs is that you arrive at the nav-beacon and you're vulnerable to attack as you travel to your destination.
The ability to travel directly to a chosen arrival-point in a system would completely negate the ability interdict ships in-system.

Nope that's not the pitch. (Although I do make a pitch for inter-system skilled leaps in my sig. Click that if you'd like to disagree with it further )

If we're talking about the ability to jump long distances quickly then I'm not really sure what the OP is hoping for.
I mean, if I was to try and do a "wormhole jump" from Sol to Colonia, would I be expected to play the "wormhole mini-game" for a couple of hours while my ship travelled the 20KLy?
Also, given how interdictions work, I can't help thinking that something like this would end up simply being "easy mode" for those who currently have ships that can't travel quickly.

The pitch suggests jumps to Colonia etc would be incredibly risky. The focus is on use in and around the bubble. The removal of interdiction risk is replaced by the skill-based risk of navigating the wormhole. (And also amplified by the fact that you'd arrive at a sun in a damaged state, and potentially amplified further if fixed jump gate starting points were used).

Lastly, there's the lore issue.
If FDev decide that travelling around, in the ED universe, is done between nav-buoys using an FSD that carries out jumps based on a ship's mass then that's the way it is.

Well they don't. That's why you can jump to any old sun, based purely on its mass. This system would return that usage to the Navs. (Which I believe was initially mooted early on).

If you can't accept that, go find a game that has a fast-travel system you do approve of.

If you can't accept people constructively criticising the game please get a new trope. That one is worn out.

 

[VR Jay Le Chardon]

I often turn to passenger missions for cash generations, and would welcome an alternative means of getting to the waypoints my passengers have on their ittenary, one that involved more player agency and less repetition so , yeah, I like and support this idea.

 

[Stealthie]

If you can't accept people constructively criticising the game please get a new trope. That one is worn out.

I think you misunderstand.

The point is that it's FDev who dictate the reality of the ED universe and if they say we jump between gravity-masses (rather than nav-buoys, as you correctly say) then that's what we should expect to do.

It'd be a bit silly to, say, play a Star Trek game and complain that you want to fly the Millennium Falcon cos it simply doesn't exist within that universe.

Course, you're perfectly entitled to petition FDev to reconsider what exists in the ED universe but you'd need to provide a compelling reason why that change would be a good thing (for everybody and not just for you) and, even so, you'd have to be willing to accept the possibility that they might just flat-out not want to make that change for no other reason than it contradicts their vision of the ED universe.

Personally, as I've said before, I think it would have been a good idea for FDev to have dotted a dozen or so Guardian Beacons around the galaxy for us to find and then, as we find them, reveal some kind of storyline where they're revealed to be some kind of jump-gate - for which the sort of mini-game you're talking about would be ideal.

If FDev had done that, it would have, at least, given us something to do for the next 18 months (searching for Guardian beacons throughout the galaxy) and it might lead to other interesting developments as well, since it'd be likely those Beacons might provide a gateway to places where interesting things happen in future.

In general, I like the idea of having to build a ship that's useful for anything and then taking it off into the unknown and having to be all independant while achieving some objective or other.

 

[VR Golgot]

Course, you're perfectly entitled to petition FDev to reconsider what exists in the ED universe but you'd need to provide a compelling reason why that change would be a good thing (for everybody and not just for you)...

Excellent, because that's what I'm aiming to do. Glad we're on the same page

Personally, as I've said before, I think it would have been a good idea for FDev to have dotted a dozen or so Guardian Beacons around the galaxy for us to find and then, as we find them, reveal some kind of storyline where they're revealed to be some kind of jump-gate - for which the sort of mini-game you're talking about would be ideal.

Sure, that could be cool indeed. That would be a more explo-leaning addition though, and this change is primarily aimed at fixing issues for non-explo ships within the bubble.

 

[JonesTheFilm]

I'm a bit tired. I misread the thread title as "Skilled Womble Jump" ...

In the absence of Wombles though, If we were going to have an extra jumping mechanic I'd prefer manufactured gates of some sort, that's purely my personal sci-fi preference. They're an accepted sci-fi staple, (B5, Mass Effect, etc),they could come from Guardian hybrid tech maybe (pretty blue glowiness). There could be CGs to build them similar to stations and megaships. FD could control where they were and how numerous they were so they wouldn't get out of hand. Voila, more cool, useful tech.

So, in summary... for me at least, if not Wombles, then jumpgates.

 

[VR Golgot]

I'm a bit tired. I misread the thread title as "Skilled Womble Jump" ...

In the absence of Wombles though, If we were going to have an extra jumping mechanic I'd prefer manufactured gates of some sort, that's purely my personal sci-fi preference. They're an accepted sci-fi staple, (B5, Mass Effect, etc),they could come from Guardian hybrid tech maybe (pretty blue glowiness). There could be CGs to build them similar to stations and megaships. FD could control where they were and how numerous they were so they wouldn't get out of hand. Voila, more cool, useful tech.

So, in summary... for me at least, if not Wombles, then jumpgates.

Yeah fixed jump nodes is definitely another viable option. (This version would pretty much have to utilise 'start point' gates I reckon, rather than freeform leaps, so it would have some of the benefits).

The advantage of CG-built / FDev-built ones is they could balance them somewhat, and they could be notorious arrival points, which would probably be more useful for piracy gameplay etc.

Failing all that, Wombles it is

 

[Kenneth McGrew]

It's not a handful. Like you say, it can be 15 minutes plus, easily. If I want to take my combat Conda (with G5 engineered FSD & Guardian FSD booster) around the bubble to points of interest (CGs, Engineers, down to Merope for Tharg baiting etc), then it can be 20+ jumps.

15 minutes is pennies in this game, in fact i dont even think 15 minutes registers on the time currency scale in elite dangerous

 

[Vedmo]

I don't personally see travel as being something in need of change or repair, but if it were to change I'd say add the risks and challenges you are talking about to the current jump mechanism while also altering the mass/fuel limitations that currently restrict our range, so a ship can jump its max range in one jump while also extending the amount of time they are fighting off destruction while getting tossed around the conduit we travel through during high wakes.

So if someone wants to travel relatively safely and efficiently in regards to fuel they could stick to a safe or optimal jump range and travel like we currently do, or they could load up a Conda with fuel and get tossed around like crazy trying to survive a massive jump. Aren't we pretty much making wormholes right now when we jump, manipulating space time to bypass the speed of light?

 

[VR Golgot]

15 minutes is pennies in this game, in fact i dont even think 15 minutes registers on the time currency scale in elite dangerous

15 minutes of fun flies by.

15 minutes of skill-lite repetition feels like an hour. A dull hour.

That's the currency I'm dealing in. Letting all the playstyles ED purports to support derive some amusement from their core passtimes.

 

[VR Golgot]

I don't personally see travel as being something in need of change or repair, but if it were to change I'd say add the risks and challenges you are talking about to the current jump mechanism while also altering the mass/fuel limitations that currently restrict our range, so a ship can jump its max range in one jump while also extending the amount of time they are fighting off destruction while getting tossed around the conduit we travel through during high wakes.

So if someone wants to travel relatively safely and efficiently in regards to fuel they could stick to a safe or optimal jump range and travel like we currently do, or they could load up a Conda with fuel and get tossed around like crazy trying to survive a massive jump. Aren't we pretty much making wormholes right now when we jump, manipulating space time to bypass the speed of light?

That would be a very neat combo! +10!

Has the added benefit of mainly leveraging existing tech & UI potentially