A Tale of Four Traders

Imagine an outpost, orbiting a gas giant in some unimportant corner of human space. It’s an extraction facility, built long ago to take advantage of the mineral wealth that this particular system once had, and home to several thousand souls who spend their time mining the rings for what little of value now remains. At the moment most of them are asleep, as the outpost is drifting silently through the shadow of the planet, and this period of natural darkness has been officially observed as ‘night-time’ for as long as anyone on board can remember. But the limb of the world below has already started to brighten, and it will not be long now before a new day begins.

Hurtling towards this quiet backwater are four players. They do not know each other, and it is only by chance that they are all converging on the same location; soon, they will go their separate ways, and never cross paths again. Yet despite being complete strangers, they actually do have quite a lot in common, not least the fact that they are all about to face a conundrum that will test their trading credentials to the limit.

Take Player 1, for example. He only bought the game a few days ago, but already he is flying a shiny new Cobra Mk III, of which he is very proud. Unfortunately, in his enthusiasm to outfit it for trading, he has somehow ended up with no shield generator, and precisely 50 tons of cargo space; he also has a mere 10,000 credits left, a perilous circumstance for any trader to be in. But Player 1 has never visited the forums, so he knows nothing of rebuy costs – all he knows is that he is enjoying himself. Dropping out of supercruise and boosting towards the outpost, he requests docking permission and heads towards his allotted pad, cheerfully unaware of the risk that he is taking.

After wrestling a little with the unfamiliar handling of his new ship, Player 1 touches down safely and opens the Starport Services menu, eager to see what potential riches the commodity market might have in store for him. But much to his disappointment, he finds that this particular market has by far the most limited selection of goods that he has ever encountered in his short career, as there are just three types of commodity available for purchase:

Bauxite, selling for 200 credits per ton;
Uraninite, selling for 1,000 credits per ton;
and Gold, selling for 10,000 credits per ton.

His natural inclination is to buy the Gold, as he knows of a starport just a few jumps away that would pay him 13,000 credits for it, netting him a tidy 3,000 credits profit per ton… but with only 10,000 credits to his name, he quickly realises that he could only afford to buy 1 solitary ton of it, and that 3,000 credits is all the profit he would make. This seems like a bit of a waste to him, especially after he just went to all the trouble of giving his ship a 50 ton cargo hold; so he reluctantly turns his attention to the minerals, hoping that they might prove to be a better investment.

With his 10,000 credits, Player 1 could afford to buy 10 tons of Uraninite, which he could then sell to the Refinery where he so recently bought his Cobra. Racking his brains, he recalls that the going rate for Uraninite at that Refinery was 1,400 credits per ton – and so with 10 tons, he could make 4,000 credits profit, one thousand more than he would have made with the single ton of Gold. New player that he is, this all seems like a very good deal, and he wastes no time in selecting ten tons of Uraninite to be loaded onto his ship.

But just as he is about to confirm his purchase, Player 1 hesitates, his eyes drawn to the final item on the shelf. He has never traded in Bauxite before – the guide that he found online certainly did not mention it – but now, with his finger poised above the mouse, something about the lowly ore calls out to him. He dimly remembers that at the Refinery they were willing to buy Bauxite for 300 credits per ton, a profit margin of just 100 credits… but with Bauxite being so trivially cheap, he could afford to buy far, far more of it. In fact, after a few seconds of mental arithmetic, Player 1 reaches the startling conclusion that with the 10,000 credits at his disposal he could afford up to 50 tons of Bauxite, filling his cargo hold completely – and at 100 credits profit per ton, those 50 tons would allow him to make a huge 5,000 credits profit in total, better than either of the other, more valuable commodities!

Feeling pleased with himself for having successfully deduced this without the use of any third-party tools, and with a sense of vindication for his rather dubious outfitting choices, Player 1 smiles as he rejects the Uraninite and replaces it with Bauxite, safe in the knowledge that he has made the correct choice. But just a few hundred metres away on the other side of the station, our second player now finds himself confronted by this same puzzle… and for him, the ‘correct choice’ is entirely different.

In a remarkable coincidence, Player 2 is also flying a shieldless Cobra, with the same 50 tons of cargo space; but he has been playing the game for a few hours longer than Player 1, and has amassed the modest fortune of 50,000 credits. As a result, although he could simply buy the same 50 tons of Bauxite that Player 1 opted for (to make the same 5,000 credits profit), he could instead afford to buy up to 5 tons of Gold, which, with a profit margin of 3,000 credits per ton, would earn him a total of 15,000 credits.

But as Player 2 squints at the numbers in front of him, frowning in concentration and working his jaw absent-mindedly, it is upon the Uraninite that his attention ultimately comes to rest. With his 50,000 credits, he could of course afford to get 50 tons of the radioactive mineral, enough to fill his cargo hold precisely; and with a profit margin of 400 credits per ton, those 50 tons would equate to a 20,000 credit profit, easily the best option available.

No sooner has Player 2 made this decision than the landing pad beside him lights up, ready for the arrival of Player 3. In yet another coincidence, Player 3 also has 50,000 credits to spend, although he is at least not flying a Cobra – instead, he has an Adder, small but tough, with an engineered shield generator and only 14 tons of cargo space. Its little wingtips fold up smoothly as he deploys his landing gear and nose-dives into position, touching down with all the grace of a swan on ice.

Engines disengaged, Player 3 opens up the commodity market and stares in disbelief at what he finds. With just 14 tons of cargo space, there is no point even considering the Bauxite (which, at best, could make no more than 1,400 credits profit); and as for the Uraninite, 14 tons of it would still only make a profit of 5,600 credits. Of course, with 50,000 credits available, Player 3 could always just buy 5 tons of Gold, to make the same 15,000 credit profit that Player 2 briefly considered – and without any other commodities to choose from, it looks like purchasing those 5 tons of Gold will be the best option almost by default. After only a moment of hesitation, Player 3 selects the Gold, and begins choosing the quantity to be loaded onto his ship…

But wait! Player 3 has not bought 5 tons of Gold; instead, he has chosen to buy only 4 tons! And with his remaining 10,000 credits, he is at this very moment purchasing 10 tons of Uraninite… what could he be thinking? Has he lost his mind?

Far from it. Player 3 is in fact a much more experienced trader than his little Zorgon Peterson ship might suggest, and as soon as he saw the commodity market, the gears in his brain began to turn. Those 4 tons of Gold will yield a profit of 12,000 credits, while the 10 tons of Uraninite will yield a further 4,000… for a grand total of 16,000 credits, one thousand more than the 5 tons of Gold would have been worth!

Suddenly, the sleeping outpost re-emerges from the gas giant’s shadow, and a wave of light obliterates the darkness…

This is what trading should be about! The goal of maximising your profits should be a mathematical mini-game in and of itself, with every station you visit presenting you with a fresh challenge, and with the solution varying from one player to the next. All too often we think of traders as mere ferrymen, shuttling high-value goods backwards and forwards, grinding out their profits with scarcely a thought for any of the cheaper commodities available – but instead, the game should encourage players to take more of an opportunist approach, by rewarding anyone who has the good business sense to make full use of their ship’s potential. And as I see it, the best way to incentivise this kind of gameplay would be to raise commodity prices across the board.

In the three examples I have given so far, I had to impose a strict limit on the amount of money that each player had at their disposal – because after all, why would anyone bother purchasing Bauxite or Uraninite, if they could instead simply fill up their ship with Gold? But in the actual game, there can be no such limit on the bank balance of the player, so the only way to stop high-value commodities like Gold from becoming the path of least resistance is to make them much more expensive, enough to prevent most players from being able to buy them in bulk. This way, players would be left in the same position as the traders in my story, forced to rely on low-value commodities in order to maximise their profits – although, as long as all commodities rise in value, even trading in minerals should allow a player to earn a decent wage.

Raising prices would also be a boon to player pirates, of course, by making the cargo that they steal actually worth stealing – and what with the new changes to Crime and Punishment, pirates need all the help they can get. Smugglers would also benefit, as would miners; and although we know that there is a Mining Update coming later this year, I’m sure that buffing their profits in the meantime would help to tide them over. And if Frontier need some sort of in-universe reason to increase prices like this, well, isn’t there a Thargoid war on the horizon? Perhaps, now that the Bugs have reached the Bubble, the ensuing chaos will result in widespread shortages, causing the value of many commodities to naturally rise…

(Also, it has always seemed strange to me that there is such a difference between the prices of goods on the commodity market, and the prices of the modules that we can buy for our ships. There are dozens of cargo types that are worth less than an empty Class 1 Fuel Tank; and even Painite, one of the rarest and most valuable items in the game, has a galactic average price comparable to that of a 16-ton Cargo Rack. How can it be that in many systems, a literal ton of Space Diamonds is worth less than the shelf it sits on? It makes no sense…)

But it is the added depth to trading that must surely be the most compelling reason to raise prices in this way, the fact that it could transform one of the grindiest aspects of the game into a cerebral activity, something to challenge and reward players in equal measure. With so many variables to consider (the availability of credits, cargo space, and of the commodities themselves, not to mention their ever-changing prices on the galactic economy), efficient trading would become a skill, simple to learn but hard to master, and players would constantly need to adapt as their individual circumstances changed over time. In fact, it was the excitement I felt when I first saw this potential that inspired me to actually type up a story, transporting the reader to a neglected old mining outpost in the hope that this tale of four traders might spark your imagination more effectively than any mere description ever could have.

And now, right on cue, here comes Player 4, in a fully upgraded Lakon Type-6 with a 100-ton cargo hold. Skilfully he brings the box-like vessel into position, the light of the dawn reflecting off his cockpit as he turns, descends, and touches down. As luck would have it, he too has 50,000 credits, which as we have seen could buy him 5 tons of Gold (for a 15,000 credit profit), or 50 tons of Uraninite (for a 20,000 credit profit); or, he could simply fill his hold with 100 tons of Bauxite (for a 10,000 credit profit). Faced with options such as these, what will he choose?

We watch in anticipation as Player 4 goes to the commodity market, and smile at the eyebrow he raises when he sees it for the first time – but his surprise is only fleeting, and not even for a moment does he seem confused. Casting a practiced eye over the data presented to him, he thinks for a few seconds, reconsiders, and then grimly nods his head. With all the self-assurance that comes from being a Tycoon in the making, he purchases 38 tons of Uraninite (which, with a profit margin of 400 credits per ton, will make him 15,200 credits), and then spends his remaining 12,000 credits buying 60 tons of Bauxite (which, with a profit margin of 100 credits per ton, will make him 6,000 credits), earning himself not only a combined total profit of 21,200 credits, but also, perhaps, a round of applause.

And so we near the end of our story, the moral of which could so easily have seemed absurd were it not for the able demonstration provided by our small yet talented cast. Who would have believed that Bauxite could ever be more profitable than Gold? Or that by subjecting the raw materials of trading gameplay to the artificial pressures of this far-fetched scenario, we could refine them, and transform them into something a lot more versatile? Who would have thought that by reducing the purchasing power of the player, we could increase the range and variety of viable goods… and that as a result, we could enhance not only trading, but also a whole host of other occupations, all in one fell swoop. It might seem too good to be true, and even counter-intuitive, but I think that the examples of the traders above speak for themselves. Remember, two of them had identical ships; three of them had identical sums of money. And yet all four of them made radically different purchases in order to maximise their profits, and they did so despite the fact that they only had three commodities to choose from!

Their business concluded, each of our four heroes now turn their attention to the task of plotting a new course and preparing their ship for take-off, little realising the parts that they have played in this drama. One by one they launch, and resume their never-ending voyage across the stars, setting their sights upon bigger and brighter treasures, and leaving the little outpost behind. None of them will remember its name; and in a few short minutes it will once again be nothing more than an insignificant speck, lost against the epic vastness of space. And yet even here, at this small and feeble venue, there were meaningful choices to be made… and within each choice, the tiny seed of a player’s satisfaction, the most valuable commodity of all.

Player 1 is the last to leave. Thrusting vertically away from his pad, he stops, retracts his Cobra’s landing gear, and then boosts fearlessly into the void, rolling and pitching the heavily laden ship to align it with his selected destination. A second boost carries him out of the starport’s mass lock shadow, whereupon he begins charging the Frame Shift Drive – and as we watch, we see the distinctive Faulcon deLacy heat vanes start to rise from the ship’s hull, glowing ever brighter as their temperature increases, until they are ablaze with the surplus energy of a spacecraft under way. Seconds pass; the countdown begins; and in the early morning starlight, the Cobra appears to glide with supreme effortlessness as it prepares to make the jump to hyperspace, aiming beyond the fabric of reality, reaching out to the Frontier.

And then, with a flash, it winks out of sight.
 
This experience is what I expected as a new player. I remember being surprised that missions seemed to pay so much better than trading in the early game. Maybe I should have had more patience. :)
 
The very tricky thing is that, given the question "buy large quantities of bulk goods or small quantities of high-margin goods" ... once your bank balance gets high enough the answer always becomes "buy large quantities of high margin goods". And "high enough" will always come pretty quickly unless trading is a very low-margin activity in general.

Increasing the prices of the high-end goods would certainly delay that moment, but:
- I have a Python
- Due to not having had anything significant to *spend* money on for the last 18 months, I have about a billion in spare cash
- I have 192t of cargo space, and thanks to engineering excessively large shields

So to stop me just buying 192t of Gold, it would need to cost ... well, in fairness, 1MCr/tonne would probably make me think *very* carefully about it - I might just buy 128t and put that 6A SCB back on at that point *just in case*.

But then, at 1MCr/tonne purchase price, I'd expect rather more than 1,000 credits per tonne profit, too ... risking a couple of hundred million credits for a couple of hundred thousand in profit is ridiculous ... and of course it would make *mining* extremely profitable, well into the billions/hour. (But if it does make significantly more than 1000cr/tonne, all that does is make the point where you don't trade anything else sooner again.)



So another option is to severely limit the supply of these commodities - you can buy 50t of Gold, but that's all the market has. Of course, even a ~1000t freighter, that just means the decision is "buy up all the goods starting with the most expensive" - all it does is reduce the profit potential of the big ships compared with the small ships (making it even harder for the big ships to self-fund)

In the original 1.0 release rares trading covered this quite well - with shorter jump ranges and fewer ship classes, rare trading was more profitable than bulk up until about Asp-sized, when shorter range bulk trading for lower profit/tonne but many more tonnes/hour took over. But now with engineering, jump ranges are almost twice what they used to be, and mission, bounty and exploration payouts make routes other than trading at all better options in the smaller ships. Perhaps *rares* should have their sale price boosted significantly, but the optimal sale range also doubled.

It might also be possible to introduce greater differentiation within economy types, so for example, this particular Industrial pays much better profits on Indium (but the other expensive refined metals have marginal profits) - so if you're stocking up a T-9, you buy the small quantity of Indium and fill the rest with bulk goods, while an Asp you might buy the Indium and the Beryllium and sell them in a two hop trip. I'm not sure how effective this would be, though.



In the "real world", of course, containerisation means that the shipping cost of an item depends primarily on mass and volume, with what it actually *is* not making that much difference. That is just less interesting, of course.



Another option might be to have shipping of bulk cargo be *really bulk* - have cargo which is sold in units of 4t, 16t, 64t, 256t. It's both more expensive and more profitable per tonne than (most) single-tonne cargoes, but obviously you need a bigger ship (especially if you can't split a 64t item across 2x size 5 racks) - this would make it easier to balance trade profits so that both Sidewinders and T-9s could trade profitably.
(Mission cargo *sort of* does this at the moment, but not particularly well and being tied to missions takes a lot of the flexibility out of it)



Highly increased piracy levels can add balance - if your profit margin per tonne is 10%, you can lose only 9% of your hold to piracy before you're in trouble ... whereas if it's 75% you can lose half your hold and still make plenty of money. So deliberately padding your hold out with bulk goods to mitigate hatch-breaking or dump as decoys for pirates then becomes a strategy. But that would not, I think, be very popular with most traders ...



The ideal is there - actually getting it to work beyond the early game of small ships, highly limited budgets, and inexperienced traders? That's the bit I can't see how to do.
 
This experience is what I expected as a new player. I remember being surprised that missions seemed to pay so much better than trading in the early game. Maybe I should have had more patience. :)

For me, it was my memories of playing the original 1984 Elite that brought all this to mind... because in that game, you would start off trading in Food (because it was cheap & profitable), then after a while you could afford to start trading in Liquor/Wines (more expensive, but available in larger quantities), and eventually you would work your way up to Gold and Platinum (which were not very profitable, but which were sold by the kg instead of by the ton, so you could potentially carry far more units of them, & ultimately make more money!) It seems strange to say, but the trading gameplay in the original game had more depth to it, and gave you a greater sense of progression, than the trading gameplay in Elite Dangerous...

(And with so many people complaining about the grind, and begging Frontier to improve payouts, I thought that raising commodity prices might be an ideal way to address that issue as well! All it would take is for the devs to tweak a few values, after all... such a simple fix, that could enhance the game for so many different people! Here's hoping Frontier take it under consideration.)


Nice write-up. Repped.

Thank you! :D
 
With prices raised, failing a 180t delivery mission would be insane. They would need to implement cargo insurance. I like your ideas, good post.
 
The very tricky thing is that, given the question "buy large quantities of bulk goods or small quantities of high-margin goods" ... once your bank balance gets high enough the answer always becomes "buy large quantities of high margin goods". And "high enough" will always come pretty quickly unless trading is a very low-margin activity in general.

Increasing the prices of the high-end goods would certainly delay that moment, but:
- I have a Python
- Due to not having had anything significant to *spend* money on for the last 18 months, I have about a billion in spare cash
- I have 192t of cargo space, and thanks to engineering excessively large shields

So to stop me just buying 192t of Gold, it would need to cost ... well, in fairness, 1MCr/tonne would probably make me think *very* carefully about it - I might just buy 128t and put that 6A SCB back on at that point *just in case*.

But then, at 1MCr/tonne purchase price, I'd expect rather more than 1,000 credits per tonne profit, too ... risking a couple of hundred million credits for a couple of hundred thousand in profit is ridiculous ... and of course it would make *mining* extremely profitable, well into the billions/hour. (But if it does make significantly more than 1000cr/tonne, all that does is make the point where you don't trade anything else sooner again.)

You're right - players with a billion credits or more will probably be immune to any changes like this, for exactly the reasons you describe. But I get the impression that most players do not have that kind of money - and even if they did, they might be reluctant to invest it all in cargo, since they would lose it all if they blew up (although for those willing to take the risk, the rewards may well be worth it). So even if poor players were the only ones who ended up being affected by my proposed price increase, I still think it would be worth doing, just to make trading more interesting for at least their first few hundred hours of playtime...

As for mining, I would like to see the most valuable commodities made much rarer - so a single ton of Painite might be worth a million credits or more, but you are unlikely to find more than one or two tons of it, because of how rare it is. I realise that this is a more controversial suggestion, but as long as the total payouts remain comparable (or better) to what is available now, I assume that most miners would not complain...? Likewise, if the less valuable commodities were easier to come by (ie, each chunk you mine has 65% of a ton of Uraninite, for example), then they might actually be worth mining - if you could mine 500 tons of Uraninite in the same time it took you to mine 5 tons of Gold, Uraninite could be hundred times less valuable than gold and yet still be equally profitable... (assuming you have a big enough ship).


So another option is to severely limit the supply of these commodities - you can buy 50t of Gold, but that's all the market has. Of course, even a ~1000t freighter, that just means the decision is "buy up all the goods starting with the most expensive" - all it does is reduce the profit potential of the big ships compared with the small ships (making it even harder for the big ships to self-fund)

In the original 1.0 release rares trading covered this quite well - with shorter jump ranges and fewer ship classes, rare trading was more profitable than bulk up until about Asp-sized, when shorter range bulk trading for lower profit/tonne but many more tonnes/hour took over. But now with engineering, jump ranges are almost twice what they used to be, and mission, bounty and exploration payouts make routes other than trading at all better options in the smaller ships. Perhaps *rares* should have their sale price boosted significantly, but the optimal sale range also doubled.

It might also be possible to introduce greater differentiation within economy types, so for example, this particular Industrial pays much better profits on Indium (but the other expensive refined metals have marginal profits) - so if you're stocking up a T-9, you buy the small quantity of Indium and fill the rest with bulk goods, while an Asp you might buy the Indium and the Beryllium and sell them in a two hop trip. I'm not sure how effective this would be, though.

I hadn't really considered rares, but everything you say sounds right, so I shall defer to your superior knowledge on the subject! As for limiting the availiability of the most expensive commodities, I had considered that, but I thought it could tie into missions, in a similar way to your 'greater differentiation in economy types' suggestion... Essentially, once you become wealthy enough to simply "buy up all the goods starting with the most expensive," trading by itself should no longer be a particularly profitable venture for you - but in its place, you could take missions (wing missions?) asking for '1,500 tons of Indium' or whatever, and they could/should allow you to make the kind of profit that mere trading would never allow. This may seem like a bit of a cop-out, since it isn't really trading anymore... but it would be dead easy for Frontier to do (or at least I assume so), and it should work!


Another option might be to have shipping of bulk cargo be *really bulk* - have cargo which is sold in units of 4t, 16t, 64t, 256t. It's both more expensive and more profitable per tonne than (most) single-tonne cargoes, but obviously you need a bigger ship (especially if you can't split a 64t item across 2x size 5 racks) - this would make it easier to balance trade profits so that both Sidewinders and T-9s could trade profitably.
(Mission cargo *sort of* does this at the moment, but not particularly well and being tied to missions takes a lot of the flexibility out of it)

I like this idea - I always wondered how 'crop harvesters' fitted into those little 1-ton cargo canisters anyway! But what if a pirate blows open your cargo hatch? Do you lose the whole 'shipment'? Honestly, I do love this, but it does raise some questions...

Highly increased piracy levels can add balance - if your profit margin per tonne is 10%, you can lose only 9% of your hold to piracy before you're in trouble ... whereas if it's 75% you can lose half your hold and still make plenty of money. So deliberately padding your hold out with bulk goods to mitigate hatch-breaking or dump as decoys for pirates then becomes a strategy. But that would not, I think, be very popular with most traders ...

I can't speak for most traders, but as long as the potential profit was there, I think at least some players would be okay with this... and it would encourage people to weigh up the risks before they set out into potentially hostile space, which is definitely something that appeals to me personally.


The ideal is there - actually getting it to work beyond the early game of small ships, highly limited budgets, and inexperienced traders? That's the bit I can't see how to do.

I admit that my idea may have its limitations (and it looks as if you have anticipated some of them better than I have!), but I would still like to see prices raised at some point in the future - even if it does not benefit everyone, it could make a big difference to new players who are just starting out. And at the very least, it would be better than what we have at the moment!
 
As a space trucker who loves trading this post was very inspiring. Frontier will definitely take notice of such a well written and well thought out post like this. It is food for thought. I wish more posts on the forum were as well thought out as this one. Repped!
 
Wow! nearly 16,000 characters of text... I copy and pasted it into Word just to count how many...

No - I'm not reading all of that!

Lord knows how long it took you to write it all!

Sooo needs a TL;DR...
 
You're right - players with a billion credits or more will probably be immune to any changes like this, for exactly the reasons you describe. But I get the impression that most players do not have that kind of money
Sure. But I think in practice the effect kicks in a lot sooner than that - in the original Elite, two or three trade runs if you knew what you were doing could get you enough cash that the 'end-game' Liquor/Computers were the optimal goods ... so it's better than that in Elite Dangerous already.

Let's say Gold becomes 10x more expensive - buy at 99.5k, sell at 100.5k
The risk is a bit higher, but so long as you're in a "good enough" ship, a 100t hold can be filled up for just 10 million credits. So even that's not a barrier for very long.

It'd perhaps keep trade good differentiation relevant until the Asp sort of size - which is better than now, but still smaller than any of the actual trade ships bar the T-6, and on the sort of scale where 'flatter' activities such as exploration or bounty hunting pay out much better anyway.

As for mining, I would like to see the most valuable commodities made much rarer - so a single ton of Painite might be worth a million credits or more, but you are unlikely to find more than one or two tons of it, because of how rare it is.
Depends how you implement this - if you do it by making Painite present in far fewer asteroids, but you still get a few tonnes out of the ones which have it, then expert miners will "bookmark" the Painite rocks and make mega-profits. (I mean, they already *do* make mega-profits. But more so...)

If you do it by dropping the per-chunk Painite percentage to 1-2%, then non-expert miners will find it endlessly frustrating (more so than now!) as they have to keep a few refinery slots permanently set aside for the rare materials to very slowly accumulate.
(Storing a refinery clears its goods - which would be extremely expensive if it destroyed a 70% collected Painite - so you'd have to have a separate mining ship if you wanted to keep them while doing other things between trips)

Frontier do have some plans for reform of mining later this year - I'm interested to see where that goes as well.

I like this idea - I always wondered how 'crop harvesters' fitted into those little 1-ton cargo canisters anyway! But what if a pirate blows open your cargo hatch? Do you lose the whole 'shipment'? Honestly, I do love this, but it does raise some questions...
On the one hand, it works quite well with piracy because it gives a way for the pirate to get a decent value cargo off a ship without having to hatchbreak it 1t at a time and hitting per-instance limits on loose cargo. So yes, you'd lose the whole shipment in one go - bring some point defence? (Or you could take 64 barrels of "crop harvester components" for less profit but much less piracy risk)

The bigger ships might need some remodelling to make their cargo hatches wider, of course.
 
Let's say Gold becomes 10x more expensive - buy at 99.5k, sell at 100.5k
The risk is a bit higher, but so long as you're in a "good enough" ship, a 100t hold can be filled up for just 10 million credits. So even that's not a barrier for very long.

It'd perhaps keep trade good differentiation relevant until the Asp sort of size - which is better than now, but still smaller than any of the actual trade ships bar the T-6, and on the sort of scale where 'flatter' activities such as exploration or bounty hunting pay out much better anyway.

It might be that you're right, and I'm being naive as to how much of a difference this would make... but just based on my own experience, I find that I go from having millions in the bank (because I'm saving up for a new ship) to having just barely more than my rebuy (because I bought the ship, and a bunch of new modules). As it stands, this makes no difference to which commodities I trade in, because everything is so cheap that I can always afford to buy & sell the best goods; but if commodities were more expensive, then it would make a difference, and I'd be forced to work my way back up from next-to-nothing. Of course, I could avoid this by just waiting a little longer, & making a bit more money, before splashing out... and perhaps it would only take me a few hours to 'work my way back up' anyway. But I assume (?) that most players can hardly wait to get their hands on their next new ship, and so would not be able to fill it with Gold etc on their first flight... and if it did take a few days for me to work my way back up to Gold, it would at least make those few days feel more interesting and more challenging than they do at the moment, with prices as low as they are.


Depends how you implement this - if you do it by making Painite present in far fewer asteroids, but you still get a few tonnes out of the ones which have it, then expert miners will "bookmark" the Painite rocks and make mega-profits. (I mean, they already *do* make mega-profits. But more so...)

If you do it by dropping the per-chunk Painite percentage to 1-2%, then non-expert miners will find it endlessly frustrating (more so than now!) as they have to keep a few refinery slots permanently set aside for the rare materials to very slowly accumulate.
(Storing a refinery clears its goods - which would be extremely expensive if it destroyed a 70% collected Painite - so you'd have to have a separate mining ship if you wanted to keep them while doing other things between trips)

In my mind's eye, I imagined that Painite asteroids could be extremely rare, but that they would be guaranteed to yield just over one ton of Painite before being depleted - I hoped that this would make finding one feel like a special bonus, rather than a frustrating missed opportunity. However, I completely overlooked the fact that expert miners could bookmark these rocks, and just farm them over and over again... so, maybe it's not such a good idea after all!


Frontier do have some plans for reform of mining later this year - I'm interested to see where that goes as well.

As am I.
 
While I agree with the sentiments about forcing players to choose what to fill their holds with, as others have pointed out simply using price would only provide a brief hurdle rather than actually preventing it happening. Worse still, it just makes former (or current, if there's any around) exploiters with their near-infinite credit accounts have access to much stronger money making methods than those who have earned credits through normal activities.

If anything, I think that the same effect can easily be gotten by simply making the pirates much smarter about who and when they attack. Poorly protected freighters carrying low value cargo are likely to be ignored even in anarchy systems as the only pirates that would actually find it worth their time are harmless little ships (that a T6 with a pair of burst lasers could likely defend itself from, or at very least escape from). Meanwhile, a T9 with a 5A shield that has stuffed its entire cargo hold with palladium is likely to attract the attention of powerful pirates even in high security systems. Meanwhile, stronger ships would deflect attention away from themselves, as the increased risk from the pirates point of view mean they are less likely to engage unless said trader has particularly valuable cargo. It would change the dynamic from "can I fill my hold with these valuables" to "should I fill my hold with these valuables". It would also make trading using the multirole ships more valid for trading (even when outfitted with beefy shields) and give the keelback a reason for existence, as they can trade in much more valuable cargo to make up for their lack of capacity.
 
While I agree with the sentiments about forcing players to choose what to fill their holds with, as others have pointed out simply using price would only provide a brief hurdle rather than actually preventing it happening. Worse still, it just makes former (or current, if there's any around) exploiters with their near-infinite credit accounts have access to much stronger money making methods than those who have earned credits through normal activities.

If anything, I think that the same effect can easily be gotten by simply making the pirates much smarter about who and when they attack. Poorly protected freighters carrying low value cargo are likely to be ignored even in anarchy systems as the only pirates that would actually find it worth their time are harmless little ships (that a T6 with a pair of burst lasers could likely defend itself from, or at very least escape from). Meanwhile, a T9 with a 5A shield that has stuffed its entire cargo hold with palladium is likely to attract the attention of powerful pirates even in high security systems. Meanwhile, stronger ships would deflect attention away from themselves, as the increased risk from the pirates point of view mean they are less likely to engage unless said trader has particularly valuable cargo. It would change the dynamic from "can I fill my hold with these valuables" to "should I fill my hold with these valuables". It would also make trading using the multirole ships more valid for trading (even when outfitted with beefy shields) and give the keelback a reason for existence, as they can trade in much more valuable cargo to make up for their lack of capacity.

Making pirates more intelligent, and inviting the player to weigh up the pros & cons of hauling valuable cargo in a vulnerable ship, is an idea that I fully support (especially with regard to giving the Keelback more of a legitimate purpose!) Indeed, if implemented ruthlessly enough, intelligent pirates might even help to reduce the game-breaking influence of those exploiters you mentioned (all the money in the world will not help them if they lack the skill to break through the pirate's blockade, or the patience to haul less valuable cargo that the pirates have no interest in).

As for my own suggestion, even if it did only provide a 'brief hurdle', I still think it would be nice to see - if nothing else, it would definitely add depth to trading for newer players, which can only be a good thing. (Also, as it stands, nearly all of the commodities in the game are effectively redundant, which just feels wrong to me... everything should be worth trading sometimes, because otherwise, why is it there?) And we cannot allow our fear of super-rich exploiters to hold us back, because they will stay wealthy no matter what we do; all we can do is focus on improving the game for poorer players, and if we do that, maybe people will be less inclined to use exploits in the future!
 
This is a really good thread, very thought provoking. I'm old school and way back each station was less diverse in it's commodities but there was only one big station in each system too.

I think general trading would be more engaging if it paid better than deliver/source missions which isn't the case at the moment.

Back in the day the unscrupulous went to narcotics and slaves very quickly for high risk/high profit (no pun intended) but new C&P and a lack of black markets, plus the fact you can only sell to a black market makes this tricky now.

You can tell I'm a really terrible smuggler right.

"Don't scan me man I'm clean."
 
Great post mate. Brings me back to the days of the original Elite from 30+ years ago.

IMO, Frontier have developed a great space sim but the economic and mission systems are borked.

Raising prices would also be a boon to player pirates, of course, by making the cargo that they steal actually worth stealing – and what with the new changes to Crime and Punishment, pirates need all the help they can get. Smugglers would also benefit, as would miners; and although we know that there is a Mining Update coming later this year, I’m sure that buffing their profits in the meantime would help to tide them over. And if Frontier need some sort of in-universe reason to increase prices like this, well, isn’t there a Thargoid war on the horizon? Perhaps, now that the Bugs have reached the Bubble, the ensuing chaos will result in widespread shortages, causing the value of many commodities to naturally rise…

Bring on some Weimar Republic hyperinflation to reset the galaxy.
 
Thank you. That was a lovely read.

I can't help but feel a little sad, knowing that I may never again see commanders I come across during my travels. But I feel that's what makes interactions so much better. I've learned a lot just by chatting with other commanders while docked at space ports. All the stories and knowledge shared between commanders at different stages of their careers.
 
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