A way to make smuggling a thing

[Trigg]

I have just thought of one potential issue: How would you handle stolen contraband? My gut feeling is that it would need to be sold to the 'fence' black marketeer at market value (price doubled because its contraband, then halved because its stolen).

There would also need to be an increase in the fine/bounty for these items, although simply adding the usual stolen goods and smuggled goods penalties together would probably be overly harsh.

 

[changtau2005]

I have just thought of one potential issue: How would you handle stolen contraband? My gut feeling is that it would need to be sold to the 'fence' black marketeer at market value (price doubled because its contraband, then halved because its stolen).

There would also need to be an increase in the fine/bounty for these items, although simply adding the usual stolen goods and smuggled goods penalties together would probably be overly harsh.

There should be no distinction between the prices, since you need no fence to do the paperwork to legalize the commodity. As for punishment, if they ever make the distinction between possession of illegal goods and stealing, then I suppose you'll get charged with both.

 

[Riff Rider]

I have just thought of one potential issue: How would you handle stolen contraband? My gut feeling is that it would need to be sold to the 'fence' black marketeer at market value (price doubled because its contraband, then halved because its stolen).

There would also need to be an increase in the fine/bounty for these items, although simply adding the usual stolen goods and smuggled goods penalties together would probably be overly harsh.

I think it should be treated the same as any other contraband. Prohibited goods don't get more prohibited if they're stolen, since they're already illegal. And the black market doesn't care how you acquired said contraband - 'just give us it!' - I see the problem in the mechanics of authority scans, they would have to blanket scan for illegal cargo and make no distinction between stolen or purchased contraband, yet make that distinction in ordinary legal commodities.

 

[Doctor Axel]

I have just thought of one potential issue: How would you handle stolen contraband? My gut feeling is that it would need to be sold to the 'fence' black marketeer at market value (price doubled because its contraband, then halved because its stolen).

There would also need to be an increase in the fine/bounty for these items, although simply adding the usual stolen goods and smuggled goods penalties together would probably be overly harsh.

Illegalception. =P If it were up to me, I'd just go with the contraband price boost - the black market doesn't care where it's coming from. As far as how the penalty would work, I'd say go with just the Illegal penalty - if you're caught with illegal drugs, the cops don't care that you stole them from someone, they care that you have drugs.

@Mohrgan, it's a good point that contraband missions already exist - which is good, and they are nice and lucrative. I think smuggling needs to exist outside of missions, though, just as trading and bounty hunting exist outside of missions.

I definitely know where you're coming from re: being wary of balance requests from players, because yeah, they are VERY often cases of "I tried to do this thing, and I failed at it, so it should be easier." Apologies if I came off that way originally. ^^ Mostly I'm interested in highlighting a game mechanic that maybe hasn't been thought through all the way, and to see if distinguishing more between -contraband- and -stolen- goods would produce some interesting gameplay.

 

[Mohrgan]

Do you not see a problem already? Look at the discussion so far. Every single permutation of what should happen comes up. Double this, then half that, full moon, new moon. It becomes too complicated to try and build a system like you are talking about. It's too much, and it's wildly self serving. Maybe smuggling isn't the most profitable, or realistic aspect of the game, but it isn't the boring grind trading can be.
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Smuggling is already a 'thing', we just have to learn how to maximize it. Asking for upsies from the Dev's is the wrong path. My pet forum phrase of late: the galaxy doesn't care.

 

[BigDaddio]

There is no problem, the deal with goods marked stolen is they are 100% profit. Find another good you can sell for double what you paid for it. YOU PAID NOTHING! There should be total risk.. Why doesn't anyone see this. They just prefer to cry about taking a chance.. I swear gamers are the biggest group of crybabies I have ever seen.

 

[Mohrgan]

There are the go fetch BB's, Rebel Transmissions, and Military Plans ect. Where the activity is considered illegal. And, there are the fetch items that are both stolen, and illegal, the Skull icon missions. So there are two types of Smuggling mission in the system.

 

[Trigg]

There is no problem, the deal with goods marked stolen is they are 100% profit. Find another good you can sell for double what you paid for it. YOU PAID NOTHING! There should be total risk.. Why doesn't anyone see this. They just prefer to cry about taking a chance.. I swear gamers are the biggest group of crybabies I have ever seen.

As was said earlier, this is about smuggling contraband that was purchased legally to be sold in a system where it is illegal. That contraband would obviously NOT be marked as stolen and WOULD have incurred a purchase price.

 

[Riff Rider]

There is no problem, the deal with goods marked stolen is they are 100% profit. Find another good you can sell for double what you paid for it. YOU PAID NOTHING! There should be total risk.. Why doesn't anyone see this. They just prefer to cry about taking a chance.. I swear gamers are the biggest group of crybabies I have ever seen.

There goes my hope that we could have a good brainstorming thread without someone throwing around insults.

 

[Doctor Axel]

There is no problem, the deal with goods marked stolen is they are 100% profit. Find another good you can sell for double what you paid for it. YOU PAID NOTHING! There should be total risk.. Why doesn't anyone see this. They just prefer to cry about taking a chance.. I swear gamers are the biggest group of crybabies I have ever seen.

Again - we're not talking about stolen goods. They work fine. We're talking about contraband, for which a distinction might be made.

EDIT

@Mohrgan - I definitely see where you're coming from re: existing support for smuggling through the mission system. I just think that smuggling opportunities outside of the mission system would be cool too. ^^

 

[changtau2005]

There goes my hope that we could have a good brainstorming thread without someone throwing around insults.

Just pretend they don't exist They don't have anything interesting to add to any sort of discussion.

So right now the way to acquire stolen goods by bulk is piracy, I suppose. That gives 100% profit, alright. It is an inconsistent and low-volume profession, however, and the black market still doesn't address the price difference between legal (stolen or otherwise) commodities and banned.

 

[DuQuesne]

It would also be nice if there was some sort of scale of prohibited items. Try and sneak in to the wrong station with a small amount of tobacco for personal use (honest officer), then expect a suitable fine. Get caught hauling multiple tonnes of battle weapons then you're facing instant armed response.

Rewards should scale with the risk of course.

As far as I'm concerned smuggling doesn't even exist in the game currently. Would really like to see it as a genuine career path. As a side note, I want to see salvaging as a fleshed out option too, but that's for another thread.

 

[Roybe]

My problem with this system is that it is based on fencing, rather than smuggling. I legally bought some tobacco, took it to a prohibited station and sold it on the black market, and lost money on the transaction. I did not steal these goods, nor did I find them in space floating around. I bought them in a legal market and expected some return on bringing an illegal good into a demanding market. Nope. It was treated as stolen contraband and had to be sold at a discount. This isn't smuggling. This is fencing. Smuggling is not a viable way to make a living. Fencing isn't to bad, find stuff floating in space for free to sell. Sorry, this has to change or there is no smuggling game.

 

[Riff Rider]

Just pretend they don't exist They don't have anything interesting to add to any sort of discussion.

So right now the way to acquire stolen goods by bulk is piracy, I suppose. That gives 100% profit, alright. It is an inconsistent and low-volume profession, however, and the black market still doesn't address the price difference between legal (stolen or otherwise) commodities and banned.

I wish I hadn't replied to that, it's not my nature to be confrontational.

I'm glad you brought up piracy - I was going to mention this but forgot; giving contraband it's due value would be a nice boost to piracy as an aside. Pirates are already outlaws, smuggling contraband isn't anything they'd be shy of - quite the opposite. Can't see a pirate objecting to higher profits.

 

[Mohrgan]

My problem with this system is that it is based on fencing, rather than smuggling. I legally bought some tobacco, took it to a prohibited station and sold it on the black market, and lost money on the transaction. I did not steal these goods, nor did I find them in space floating around. I bought them in a legal market and expected some return on bringing an illegal good into a demanding market. Nope. It was treated as stolen contraband and had to be sold at a discount. This isn't smuggling. This is fencing. Smuggling is not a viable way to make a living. Fencing isn't to bad, find stuff floating in space for free to sell. Sorry, this has to change or there is no smuggling game.

You brought the items to a station where the items are illegal. Why would you think there would be an open demand? You should have brought that legal cargo to a station that it wasn't prohibited in. There would still be the issue of demand. You, simply, shouldn't have sold that legal cargo on the black market. That error is on you.

 

[Riff Rider]

You brought the items to a station where the items are illegal. Why would you think there would be an open demand? You should have brought that legal cargo to a station that it wasn't prohibited in. There would still be the issue of demand. You, simply, shouldn't have sold that legal cargo on the black market. That error is on you.

Because prohibited goods are openly revealed in the system view? It's only logical to assume prohibited goods bring in better prices than legal goods, since that's how economics has worked since the days of the first proHIBITIONS.

Edited out bad comparison.

 

[Doctor Axel]

You brought the items to a station where the items are illegal. Why would you think there would be an open demand? You should have brought that legal cargo to a station that it wasn't prohibited in. There would still be the issue of demand. You, simply, shouldn't have sold that legal cargo on the black market. That error is on you.

Illegality reduces rate of consumption, but drives up prices - consider a certain highly illegal narcotic on this planet. In the countries where it is primarily produced, it is only loosely regulated to the point where it can be produced 'legally' (for the sake of our argument) in large amounts. In other nearby countries this narcotic is strictly regulated, which means it cannot be produced or held in large amounts. The regulation doesn't mean that the demand goes down - it just means that the acquisition is more difficult, and therefore more expensive. As such, a huge amount of effort is put into smuggling the narcotic into countries where it is tightly regulated, simply because the regulation drives the price up.

EDIT

@DuQuesne - What you're talking about sounds cool, but I think for a first pass at separating -stolen- goods from -contraband- goods, levels of illegality might be a bit much to chew. I'd save that for a 'maybe later,' if it were me. The fine for carrying stolen/illegal cargo already scales with the value of the cargo, so there's already SORT OF support for this idea. =P

 

[Mohrgan]

Illegality reduces rate of consumption, but drives up prices - consider a certain highly illegal narcotic on this planet. In the countries where it is primarily produced, it is only loosely regulated to the point where it can be produced 'legally' (for the sake of our argument) in large amounts. In other nearby countries this narcotic is strictly regulated, which means it cannot be produced or held in large amounts. The regulation doesn't mean that the demand goes down - it just means that the acquisition is more difficult, and therefore more expensive. As such, a huge amount of effort is put into smuggling the narcotic into countries where it is tightly regulated, simply because the regulation drives the price up.

I see your point, and here and now that's how it happens, but in the current Elite world it doesn't. I was commenting on your "and expected some return on bringing an illegal good into a demanding market." notion. The way this system works you could never sell a prohibited good on an open market. It's pretty well established that the Black Market buys at a reduced value. The BM buyer has to sell the stuff at the going rate, and make a profit. Wholesale vs. Retail.
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In the end, your taking a loss was your doing. You could have kept your cargo, and flew off to a system where it was legal and in demand. That's how trading is done. The only way to make a profit the way you describe is to get a missions asking you to bring the stuff to that station. Those missions are common enough.
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I do, however, think a mechanic, a simple one, like you describe would be cool. But it has to stay simple, and generally obvious in it's operation. It have to work where the Black Market sends out a call for items that are in very high demand. Someone is having a baby and they want contraband Tobacco to give out cigars. A short term, immediate demand that disappears after the event. But, the Skull icon smuggling missions do that. So there we are.

 

[DuQuesne]

@DuQuesne - What you're talking about sounds cool, but I think for a first pass at separating -stolen- goods from -contraband- goods, levels of illegality might be a bit much to chew. I'd save that for a 'maybe later,' if it were me. The fine for carrying stolen/illegal cargo already scales with the value of the cargo, so there's already SORT OF support for this idea. =P

True, but no harm in thinking big.

There's no rush anyway, they need to release my Imp Courier first.

 

[Zeeman]

I've posted my thoughts on smuggling/illegal goods previously (was aimed more at open play, bu tno reason it couldn't work just in general), so no need to rehash, though I'd like to see smuggling become a "rated" profession, align with piracy.

Obviously not by the pilot's federation, but perhaps come up with a "naughty peoples" equivalent...

Thus, piracy and smuggling can have their own ranks - but rather than "Elite", it could be "Legendary" or some such similar term...

Z...