A way too early Odyssey "Endgame" suggestion.

[Vekt Ey'doom]

So, one issue I have consistently had with Elite, over the years playing, is a complete lack of a compelling Endgame. Most of the game's "Grind" if you want to use that term, focuses on investing huge amounts of time into upgrading your ship, but all that really does is let you do existing content a little more efficiently. But the question is then, what actually makes an "Endgame" loop?

Odyssey as an expansion is fortunate, because it is not much different from traditional games, as opposed to Elite Dangerous: Horizons which has few peers that touch on its unique feature set. Honestly, the closest game I can think of is not actually a space game, but Mech games, like Armored Core and Mech Warrior. But Odyssey is much different, we have many first person shooter games to draw comparisons to, to see what works and what doesn't. Even stretching a little bit further, really even action adventure games can have some inspirational value. The breadth of content you can... let's not say copy, let's say emulate, is much wider. So I was thinking of how certain mechanics that already exist in Odyssey could be repurposed into an endgame I personally would find compelling. I think I already mentioned this briefly on the Odyssey forums themselves, but figured that section is better reserved for the glaring technical issues the game is experiencing right now.

So some of the games I draw inspiration from for what I consider the "Ideal" (Or more accurately, achievable) Odyssey "Endgame" would be

1: Bloodborn, specifically the Chalice Dungeon system (If you're unfamiliar, it's a system that generates procedural dungeons assembled out of hand-crafted rooms, hardly a new concept, but I think it's executed particularly well in Bloodborn)

2: Destiny, Specifically the Vault of Glass, and even more specifically, how the Vault of Glass made challenges not just on combat (I actually think the last boss fight sucks) but puzzles to solve. Something I think the ED Community would appreciate

3: Pretty Much every MMO/Persistent Online Game using RNG Loot on some level, this doesn't have to be a bad thing.

So, to bring these 3 elements into an Unholy Union, I propose the "Guardian Armory" which would be a content loop consisting of Procedurally generated Guardian Ruins, designed to test your skill in battle, you efficacy at resource management and your wits as you comb and battle through these ancient buried sites in the hope to find intact handheld guardian weaponry and technology to aid in Humanity's (Eventual?) confrontation with Thargoids in ground conflicts.

(1) These procedurally generated structures (Ideally underground with access at a traditional guardian ruin topside, I assume it could work, even if you have to use an elevator like in stations, since right now Planetary tech can't do caves) would be sprawling with little to no in-field resupply opportunity, built procedurally (But each ruin is static, generated only once, but many Perhaps thousands or more?) of these sites are spread across the galaxy. It's a logical, but huge extension of the existing Settlement system. Picture essentially assembling all of the room in a settlement together, underground

(2) While combat would undoubtable be a focus, the Elite Community is known for their love and ability to solve complex puzzles and mysteries. And any Endgame in Elite should be no exception. Best experienced with a team to combine tools, resources and abilities. (EG: Heavy combat encounters benefits a fully upgraded Dominator, areas where you have to cut through obstacles benefit the Maverick, and areas that might be far too high for any suit but the Artemis upgraded with enhanced jump to Reach benefit that) eventually culminating in a huge payoff with a cache of intact Guardian technology.

(3) An endgame loop is only as compelling as the rewards, and this is where our oft-maligned friend RNGesus comes into play. While humans can make cheap imitations, true Guardian technology is still far beyond the ability of even the most talented engineers, Instead, these intact guardian caches contain true guardian weapons of a Grade, and with attachments, generated by RNG (Think Loot drop), functioning essentially as a direct parallel to the current "Meta" game of trying to find a merchant in the Bubble with a pre-upgraded weapon/suit. The further you are from Sol, the more likely you are to find pristine caches of this technology. Find a Grade 5 "Perfect" weapon would be rare indeed. To push exploration, a single client can only receive rewards from a particular ruin once per week. (Thursday maintenance)

And such a system can be expanded by essentially just adding more art. If you wanted to do like Thargoid Base Incursions, well, the heavy technical lifting is already done, just have the art team assemble a new "Kit" of rooms and plug it into the system.

Ideas are cheap, I'm sure a million other people have had these and better ideas and I certainly don't have the talent to execute anything like this. But I had to say something. Feel free to brutalize this and take me down a few pegs, I'm sure there's some obscure piece of lore that's like "Actually, the Guardian weapons couldn't be used by humans, because Guardians operated all their personal weapons with their tongues, and thus all their weapons were in helmet or mask form." etc

 

[krm398]

the way the devs have been doing things since the game started, I really doubt they ever plan on a end game like other games do. its a massive galaxy that will go on so long as people will play it. wars will come and go, ship will be destroyed and rebuilt, but the game will only end when everyone dies or stops playing it.

 

[Ettanin]

(1) These procedurally generated structures (Ideally underground with access at a traditional guardian ruin topside, I assume it could work, even if you have to use an elevator like in stations, since right now Planetary tech can't do caves) would be sprawling with little to no in-field resupply opportunity, built procedurally (But each ruin is static, generated only once, but many Perhaps thousands or more?) of these sites are spread across the galaxy. It's a logical, but huge extension of the existing Settlement system. Picture essentially assembling all of the room in a settlement together, underground

There's a limited amount of patterns and algorithms to create such patterns. Sooner or later, the community finds the patterns or the algos and gives speedrun guides.

(2) While combat would undoubtable be a focus, the Elite Community is known for their love and ability to solve complex puzzles and mysteries. And any Endgame in Elite should be no exception. Best experienced with a team to combine tools, resources and abilities. (EG: Heavy combat encounters benefits a fully upgraded Dominator, areas where you have to cut through obstacles benefit the Maverick, and areas that might be far too high for any suit but the Artemis upgraded with enhanced jump to Reach benefit that) eventually culminating in a huge payoff with a cache of intact Guardian technology.

Solo is as much a valid gameplay choice as is private group and open. By making teamwork relevant, you gate solo players from the game content. And console players who don't pay an online play subscription.

(3) An endgame loop is only as compelling as the rewards, and this is where our oft-maligned friend RNGesus comes into play. While humans can make cheap imitations, true Guardian technology is still far beyond the ability of even the most talented engineers, Instead, these intact guardian caches contain true guardian weapons of a Grade, and with attachments, generated by RNG (Think Loot drop), functioning essentially as a direct parallel to the current "Meta" game of trying to find a merchant in the Bubble with a pre-upgraded weapon/suit. The further you are from Sol, the more likely you are to find pristine caches of this technology. Find a Grade 5 "Perfect" weapon would be rare indeed. To push exploration, a single client can only receive rewards from a particular ruin once per week. (Thursday maintenance)

No. RNG is a way to artificially prolong game content, and very frustrating. Elite Dangerous always allowed you to craft best in slot equipment. It shouldn't be different here.

 

[[VR] Bulbulunufus]

OP - you'll see a penchant on the forums for hobbling any gameplay suggestions with the sacred cow of mode choice . But in this instance it's taken to such a level of dogma as to be clearly false: in fact we already have plenty of features that incentivise team play (high threat POIs incl. thargoids, wing missions, combat zones, large scale minor faction support, PvP), or in the case of powerplay downright require coordinated activity to create any meaningful difference or strategy. Much of the above are already broadly considered "endgame" activities.

I for one would certainly welcome new additions to gameplay which incentivise cooperative play in response to a heightened NPC threat. These would remain, as you describe, fully accessible in all modes, but would naturally favour a tactically equipped team. This possibility for team play with specialisations has already been used as a selling point in Odyssey publicity. I actually think ganking would be much less a cause of anguish were the NPC challenge greater. CMDRs would be better equipped, more ready to encounter danger, and more likely to team up where possible. Instead we have people alone in paper ships because the NPC threat is so flaccid, who on encountering a player attacker are quickly overwhelmed and wrongly identify the reason why it was "too easy" for them to be destroyed. Then again, from what I hear, on-foot NPCs are the most over-powered gankers in the game currently . On the other side, gankers would have more challenging gameplay to keep them occupied without resorting to random PvP.

Where I disagree is the idea of endgame activity being a way to obtain loot, enhanced equipment, etc. Endgame should be the thing for which you acquire the best equipment, the thing that keeps you playing long after you've maxed out all your stats. To me it should feed into a narrative - powerplay and minor faction support do this (albeit the game doesn't really highlight that narrative). I'm not saying there should black and white no content-locked reward, but it shouldn't be the sole or perhaps even the main incentive.

 

[JTFireblaze]

Procedurally generated Guardian structures that incentivise team play and offer meaningful rewards, instead of the copy pasted structures we have strewn around the galaxy now?

Yes.

I could see them working in a similar way to the Derelict Freighters do in No Man's Sky. In that game every (I think every) star system has a unique derelict in it with a randomised layout of rooms. Because it's "in space" and derelict, the artificial gravity doesn't work, you have to use your magboots and it forces you to move around slower. It's pretty neat. Best of all is the rewards from them. After completing the tasks you get a bunch of credit rewards and whatever, but the real prize is the randomised upgrades for your freighter. It's really rewarding.

I'd love to see Elite double down on the procedural elements of the game. The procgen planets and stellar forge are fantastic (Odyssey teething issues aside). You could have those Guardian satellites give you a signal source which is the location of one of these "dungeons", go run it, find rare tech you can trade in for Guardian tier gear. Maybe even find some intact gear while you're down there.

In fact, why just Guardian. Add procedurally generated human "dungeons" to explore. And Thargoid ones too.

 

[Ettanin]

Just so you know. A suit limits which tools are available. If it requires tools of different suits, it will gate solo players because you cannot change suit impromptu.

 

[JTFireblaze]

Just so you know. A suit limits which tools are available. If it requires tools of different suits, it will gate solo players because you cannot change suit impromptu.

The only suit that provides utility is the Maverick though.

Dominator is pure combat with no unique tool. Artemis has a plant scanner, not going to have much use in a Guardian ruin I wouldn't think...

A solo player would probably have to have the Maverick suit on and it would be fine.

 

[Ettanin]

Artemis has a plant scanner, not going to have much use in a Guardian ruin I wouldn't think...

Depends. It could be repurposed as a scanner not just for plants.

 

[Sucette]

So, one issue I have consistently had with Elite, over the years playing, is a complete lack of a compelling Endgame. Most of the game's "Grind" if you want to use that term, focuses on investing huge amounts of time into upgrading your ship, but all that really does is let you do existing content a little more efficiently.

There's endgame content in elite base and horizon. It's called high level ax and pvp. It's just that people don't want to get involved in them.
Perhaps because it's not just about upgrading ships but also skills, I dunno

 

[Rubbernuke]

Or perhaps Powerplay, which requires knowledge on ships, engineering, BGS, PvP, Powerplay concepts themselves etc.

If FD had actually given the feature love, it would have been a mini Star Wars Squadrons for free.

 

[GloatingSwine]

When people say "Endgame" in videogames what they actually mean is "lemon flavour grind".

In most MMOs the "endgame" grind only feels different because the things you maybe get for it are "for keeps" (until the next expansion where they're all woefully underpowered again).

 

[Vekt Ey'doom]

Just so you know. A suit limits which tools are available. If it requires tools of different suits, it will gate solo players because you cannot change suit impromptu.

Yeah, I want to be clear because I kind of implied that team play was "Required" but I wasn't precluding solo in this idea. I'm actually mostly a solo player, but I think the skill ceiling if you're playing solo (Like with Thargoid ship combat) is going to be naturally higher for solo, or you're going to have to be more creative. Ultimately though, the advantage of doing something like a Procedural generated dungeon is you'll inevitably find different ones suited for different suit/equipment combos. One might not generate with much difficult combat areas, but have a lot of Platforming (Artemis) or have lots of stuff you need to clear out with the plasma cutter (Maverick). This is where the exploration community pays its dues, charting locations and indicating which builds are optimal for which routes. On the flip side, some might require two people because one person simply can't carry enough supplies with them (Particularly ammunition). That's kind of the strong point of RNG/Procedural stuff like you see with a lot of rogue like games lately.

When people say "Endgame" in videogames what they actually mean is "lemon flavour grind".

In most MMOs the "endgame" grind only feels different because the things you maybe get for it are "for keeps" (until the next expansion where they're all woefully underpowered again).

As opposed to the Lime Flavored Grind we have now? You're not wrong, but the idea of Endgame grind is to have something that actually puts all the work you've already invested into use. There is no persistent online game without this cycle of power creep. Even with no "Endgame" Elite has an absolutely abhorrent amount of power creep through engineering. Even solo games have it to some extent, at least any games that are meant to be played longer than "Main story length" which is an increasingly large percentage.

There's endgame content in elite base and horizon. It's called high level ax and pvp. It's just that people don't want to get involved in them.
Perhaps because it's not just about upgrading ships but also skills, I dunno

The problem with AX content is that it has no purpose. You get the best rewards before you've even started (The guardian modules). And you're better served financially just killing pirates in a ring system, not that credits are an important motivator for anyone at that stage anyway.

PVP "Endgame" is a non-starter. The networking this game uses is not sufficient to effectively separate skill from any other myriad of factors (Don't confuse this as me saying skill doesn't matter). Also, if you want to take PVP seriously as a true test of skill, you also have to standardize UI/Input and everything else. There's a reason why Competitive PVP games standardize all these things outside exhibition. Yes, PVP can be the endgame, but it's not In Elite for more reasons than any mortal can count.

And finally, PVP is just so boring at the highest skill levels. It's just two FDLs taking passing shots at one another. Boost, Shoot, Turn. Boost, Shoot, Turn. Boost, Shoot Turn. The most interesting PVP happens at wildly disparate skill levels in ganks and counter-ganks. Not exactly a robust and health PVP meta if I do say so myself.

On the subject or RNG, I know it's not the best solution, but it's the easiest solution to, at least what I think is a problem, and that's how players engage with certain kinds of content. If you simply (In my example) set static spawns for particular rewards, players will engage only in that narrow slice of the content. There is no compelling drive to look further, there is no reward for taking that extra time. Once the community documents the reward path, everything else becomes pointless. Now, a little bit of that is inevitable, but the idea behind RNG "Loot" in this instance as well as the seemingly arbitrary "Cooldown" timer on rewards, is that it drives people to chart more of these locations, as each found "Dungeon" is another weekly RNG roll. We know what would happen if it wasn't RNG, the exact same thing that happens with every other part of Elite Dangerous: Relog Spam.

The trick is you have to find a balance between rewarding the player's time, but not allowing them to cheese the system. Circling back to the Elite Dangerous we already know, people spam the HGEs and Data ports with relogging because the RNG is too aggressive and doesn't reward time. Do you really want to spend 4 hours visiting 12 settlements for 3 Manufacturing instructions? Probably not, you'd rather relog at the same data port on a satellite 12 times and probably get 20. In cases where you're making "Small" steps towards progress, RNG is anathema. I honestly think most people would rather know they can find 1 manufacturing instruction per industrial data port, and NOT be able to relog these locations, than sit and relog RNG at a POI data port. Maybe I'm wrong though. But I think the ideal scenario in this case is that Industrial Data Ports always contain at least 1 MFI, but impact POI data ports could contain 3-5. In this case, both systems exist, and compliment the player's time. A player may chart a route to manufacturing bases to gather a known quantity of MFI, but along the way they probe the planets and find an Impact site and hope for a huge lucky strike.

Now, where RNG can come in handy for rewards, is when it's the chance of a massive payoff (lottery logic) instead of tiny incremental RNG rewards. Like, would people be okay if HGE for example, couldn't be exploited and relogged, but instead of getting 3-9 you got 20-50? I'm sure some people wouldn't but I'm sure a lot more people would at least tolerate it more.

So that's the idea with RNG loot in my instance, you're always getting a top-tier weapon or something for your time, it might not even take that many attempts to get an "Almost, not quite" roll, something you're happy with for a long time, but to get that absolute perfect roll, you'd have to engage with the system for a considerably longer time.

 

[Sucette]

The problem with AX content is that it has no purpose. You get the best rewards before you've even started (The guardian modules). And you're better served financially just killing pirates in a ring system, not that credits are an important motivator for anyone at that stage anyway.

IMHO, when you're at endgame, that's as the name say. You're in the end. So I don't expect to earn things. I expect endgame to be an activity I enjoy doing and asking me to use my best stuff and skills. AX can do that.

PVP "Endgame" is a non-starter. The networking this game uses is not sufficient to effectively separate skill from any other myriad of factors (Don't confuse this as me saying skill doesn't matter).

Even if it's true that networking is a skill you need to learn if you want to pvp, most networking issues are about being able to start the fight, not when the fight is ongoing. Unless someone use a slf. But that's using a known bug and not networking issues. Or if someone watch 3 streams while playing. I can give you the name of players who will win against anybody whatever the networking is.

. Also, if you want to take PVP seriously as a true test of skill, you also have to standardize UI/Input and everything else.

That's not true in elite. If there are differences about kmb and Hotas, they are :
-Microgimbal more reactive, so easier to snipe modules : but everybody play shield tanks immune to module damages so it doesn't matter.
-Easier long tot weapons, such as fixed lasers. But the meta is not lasers at all, even more with thermal conduit.
So both those things are not significants.
For the PA /rails meta, rails snap shots are as doable with kbm and Hotas. And I'm an Hotas player.

And finally, PVP is just so boring at the highest skill levels. It's just two FDLs taking passing shots at one another. Boost, Shoot, Turn. Boost, Shoot, Turn. Boost, Shoot Turn.

2 things :

• being able to "turn boost shoot..." In pvp without ever leaving the 2km range with your opponent is a skill level very interesting to learn in itself
• more than that, you're making a confusion between 1v1 and pvp. Most of the best pvp players do 1v1 because they can be fun, but like wing fights a lot more. And wing fights are not at all "turn and boost and shoot"