General / Off-Topic About equality, and ending the toxic aspects of "gamer" culture

[Adept]

If you don't live in a cave, you've probably noticed something is in the air. There is a really bewildering, and increasingly ugly trend of misogyny from some people, masquerading as "Defending gaming". This is the same phenomenon as people raging at "fake geek girls", but it goes even further.

Here is an excellent article on the subject. I hope to find out that the community here at the Frontier forums are healthy and sane. There is a small but loud minority of nutcases out there.


Announcement: Readers who feel threatened by equality no longer welcome

The terrible future

Literally the worst possible thing that can happen here is equality. That’s the worst outcome, that’s the nightmare scenario. If, today, every AAA publisher said “We will start to include women more in our games and represent them better”, the only actual difference this would make to anybody shrieking about how feminists are destroying games is that they might have to pick their gender in the next Call of Duty game. Terrifying, isn’t it. Stuff of nightmares.

The problem here is that these squealing man-children, so desperate to keep women out of their precious games, want it both ways. They want gaming to be taken seriously as a culture and art form, while at the same time throwing an unbelievable tantrum when subjected to serious criticism. This is ludicrous and immature on so many levels. Gaming isn’t for you, anymore. Gaming is for everyone. Everyone gets to have their say, to make their criticism, and gaming doesn’t need you to defend it.

 

[ErikNikolai]

Here we go again...

 

[Adept]

Here we go again...

Excuse me? Feel free to point me at a discussion that is going on. If you are just rolling your eyes on the topic, I guess it's pretty clear which side of the divide you fall on.

 

[Lasse B.]

So you mean to say we need that discussion here, too?



Ok, I'll play.

Most games are geared towards a male audience because for quite some time it was boys and men who made up most of the customer base. Things are slowly changing now as more and more female gamers emerge. This is a natural course of development and something I very much look forward to. The only problem is idiots who for various reasons don't want to share their toy(s) and put off people through disorderly conduct.

 

[ErikNikolai]

Excuse me? Feel free to point me at a discussion that is going on. If you are just rolling your eyes on the topic, I guess it's pretty clear which side of the divide you fall on.

I have nothing against female gamers. I'm however glad that certain games are designed to cater to male audiences, while other games are designed to cater to female audiences. Although there's some individual exceptions, men and women are drawn to very different kinds of gameplay, just as they're drawn to very different kinds of movies. Consequently, when games are designed to appeal equally to both genders you end up with very drab and unappealing products IMHO.

This is the third or fourth thread today where you've espoused your male feminist views. Why not seek out a political forum to vent your frustrations at the world, and use this forum for discussing Elite?

 

[Adept]

I just can't wrap my mind around what drives the bitter hatered towards women displayed by this small but vocal minority. It's as bewildering as young men embracing religions that want women shut away from view and covered up in public.

As a straight bloke, I just can't get this. For me girls & women in the same hobby has made things more fun. Scouts, roleplaying, larping, Sci-Fi conventions, martial arts and gaming. No exceptions.

 

[davelister]

I am from Germany what is he talking about?

I played with 12 Elite and i dont car who playes it because I loved it on my c64 which Girl hat a C64 in these days?? so what?

If you want Girls got to Facebook and play Farmville

 

[Adept]

. Although there's some individual exceptions, men and women are drawn to very different kinds of gameplay, just as they're drawn to very different kinds of movies. Consequently, when games are designed to appeal equally to both genders you end up with very drab and unappealing products IMHO.

I asked you before, what is your source? I told you who I am and where I come from. Return the facor, and show us where you draw this "women are different, and like different games" knowledge.

 

[ErikNikolai]

I asked you before, what is your source? I told you who I am and where I come from. Return the facor, and show us where you draw this "women are different, and like different games" knowledge.

No, I'm not interested in having that discussion. It'd be a time sink. It's also so bloody obvious, that anyone who aren't blinded by ideology are perfectly aware of it.

Again, I advice you to take this kind of discussion to a political forum where people are actually interested in arguing over this. If you're genuinely interested in learning about counter-arguments to the ideological view that genders are nothing but 'social constructs' (a view which I suspect you have adopted), you can easily do so with a little bit of research.

 

[Adept]

Then you are adding nothing here. Thanks for playing.


To recap, I have studied the biology and psychology of gender. With evolutionary psychology and behavioral ecology. I've been a gamer since 1982 and met my wife-to-be because she was a fan of Doom.

You seem to be the gamer the article talks about. It's too bad you aren't willing to actually have an open discussion about the roots of your dismissive attitude towards female gamers.

Oh well, I tried. The rest of us can talk though.

 

[Lasse B.]

Perhaps it was different with Finnish girls and in Finland in general, but here in Germany and during my upbringing in the 80s and 90s gamer girls were frowned upon. And it wasn't much different (some, but not a whole lot) for boys either. I was the oddball in my class because I was looking to play PC games when the time allowed.

I'm not sure about gender specific interests, but I remember having read something similar to what ErikNikolai has already written. It was a printed magazine, so unfortunately there's nothing to link to. But I also remember the article said that interests were merging and people are focusing more and more on games they can play for short periods of time.

Maybe some male gamers think "their" game is some sort of a gentleman's club. They show declining and even hostile behavior towards members of the opposite gender by whom they feel their perception of privacy threatened.

 

[Tomtom]

Okay, I have been following these threads with interest today, and now I've had some wine so...

To be fair I'm not sure where you have got this idea that ErikNikolai (or anyone else) has a "dismissive attitude towards female gamers" from, I just don't see it anywhere in his posts. He has stated an opinion that men and women are different, but that does not imply any prejudice against women. You could just as much claim that that same statement implies prejudice against men!

I think we're a pretty good bunch here though. A large portion of us (according to the polls) fall into the more mature age groups. That, combined with the fact that we have great moderators, makes this a friendly and accommodating community, and I think the vast majority of us would prefer an equal balance.

And yet the fact remains: according to the polls, the gender balance here falls heavily on the male side. That is a fact, not an opinion. And certainly not the way it should be! So the question is: why? The answer is: I have no idea.

 

[McLaine]

No problem with women gamers.

No problem with there being games aimed at women.

No problem with females being considered by any game dev/artist because that dev/artist WANTS to.

I do have a problem with an dev/artist being told and pressured into including more female oriented stuff in their work in the name of equality.

That is utter felgercarb.

It's the dev/artists perogative what goes into their creative endevour. If there aren't enough artists making games that appeal to women, then women need to step up, learn to code, and be that artist that makes those games.

 

[QuantumTron]

Here's what I said in another thread a while back, relevant to this topic...

It doesn't matter to me if you're female or male - to me you're a player, just like me, and you'll either be friendly, or unfriendly during the game.

Gender doesn't come into it, and I won't give female players any special leniency just because of their gender - I'm fair like that

rgds.

Which was very well received by the player in question.

A commander's a commander, male or female.

 

[gripped]

I don't want me missus getting into gaming cos I might be served me tea late and there's always cleaning to be done

 

[Adept]

Here's what I said in another thread a while back, relevant to this topic...


Which was very well received by the player in question.

A commander's a commander, male or female.

Perfect. People are just people. There is no need to be trapped into gendered thinking.

Btw. I felt pretty silly about trying to have a debate with him once I realised his "avatar pic" was a "not equal" symbol. That's pretty entrenched, I guess.

 

[Meynard Mayhem]

I love Internet drama. especially the fact that now everybody is criticizing gaming "journalism" their response is to post articles about how "GAMERS ARE DEAD, WE ARE WITNESSING THE DEATH OF AN IDENTITY"

 

[Adept]

I love Internet drama. especially the fact that now everybody is criticizing gaming "journalism" their response is to post articles about how "GAMERS ARE DEAD, WE ARE WITNESSING THE DEATH OF AN IDENTITY"

It's amusing, but then my "gamer identity" was always inclusive, not exclusive and propriatory. The way some gamers and gamer communities have treated females and gay people has always been surprising and sickening to me.

If that "identity" is dying, I say good riddance. Gaming is more mainstream than going to the movies already. The exclusivist hobbyists need to get over themselves IMO

 

[Cosmo]

The gaming community is not a wretched hive of sexism and misogyny
Alex Mahan, September 1, 2014

The SJW crowd interpreted all criticism aimed at Quinn as misogynistic attacks from a male-dominated community that wants to keep females away from their "boys only" club. Websites began to publish articles like "The sexist crusade to destroy game developer Zoe Quinn" and "Why we need more developers like Zoe Quinn", describing Quinn as a victim of Internet bullies while portraying the gaming community as a vile den of cruel sexists.

The focus then shifted away from Quinn herself and to the state of gaming journalism, which has become over-saturated with articles about social justice. Prominent figures in the gaming community commented on the controversy through Twitter and YouTube; everyone from Tim Schafer to TotalBiscuit to JonTron had an opinion to share. The Internet has finally begun to talk about SJWs and their influence on the gaming community.

Gaming websites are currently posting articles with titles such as "The End of Gamers" "Gamers are Over" and "The Death of an Identity", painting a picture of a racist, sexist, misogynistic, homophobic, bigoted community that is wailing with despair as it collapses. But the journalists posting these articles don't understand the situation correctly. Gamers don't oppose the SJW agenda because they are bigots; they oppose it because it's annoying.

It's annoying to hear someone tell you that you must be politically correct at all times. It's annoying to hear someone tell developers what kind of content should and should not be allowed in video games. It's annoying to hear someone give a low score to a game because something in it offended them. It's annoying to hear someone complain about the content in a game, when the game was clearly designed for a different target demographic.

Game developers should be able to develop whatever games they want. If a game developer wants their protagonist to be a white, straight, cis male, that should be okay. If a game developer wants their protagonist to be a black, lesbian, transgendered female, that should be okay, too. If a game developer wants their protagonist to be a busty girl wearing nothing more than dental floss, that should also be okay.

Game developers should be free to develop any kind of game they want, with whatever content they want, with whatever protagonist they want - and that includes straight, white, cis males. No game developer should feel obligated to please every possible minority. No game developer should feel obligated to be 100% politically correct at all times. And no game journalist should feel entitled to slander game developers for developing content that isn't aimed towards them.

Presently, the gaming community has focused its attention on the subject of SJW game journalism; now is the time for gamers to speak out about what kind of content they do and do not appreciate seeing on gaming websites. One can only hope that the editors and moderators of such websites will not misinterpret gamers as bigots when they voice their opposition to the abundance of SJW articles that have been flooding the Internet in recent years.

On a side note, this does not mean that it's ever okay to harass someone else over the Internet.

http://www.examiner.com/article/the-gaming-community-is-not-a-wretched-hive-of-sexism-and-misogyny

 

[Rhombeus]

My now wife seduced me by dropping by my hotel room to ply me with Jack Daniels and to play Hogs of War on the nintendo. Later on in our relationship we would stay up and hammer each other all night long playing Empire Earth.

She hated me playing Vietcong and GTA and various other games.

So what I would say is, Men, don't try and make games for females as they are a complete confusion. Females making games for females may work though.
Setting out to make a game to appeal to both sexes as a selling point is going to be pointless. Setting out to make a game that's going to fun to play is more important.

One thing of note that does get me a little concerned is the way female NPC's are portrayed. There seems to be quite a bit of female degradation in games.