Add Secondary Keeper Gate to Habitats

[jelia]

Would love it if we can add a secondary keeper gate to habitats, so that we can make tunnels for the animals, both above and below ground, without having to make them tall enough for the keepers to fit. The keepers need to be able to reach all enclosures within a habitat, and therefore, we need the ability to place several habitat gates in the same habitat.

I wanted to build a habitat for my red pandas that had a tunnel-style bridge between two enclosures separated by guest paths. The tunnel-bridge was traversable for the red panda when I used 1x1m mesh, but not for the keepers, meaning they couldn't reach the other enclosure in the habitat and it couldn't be cleaned. Therefore, I had to use taller construction pieces than I wanted and it looks very wonky.

 

[Laura_91]

Would also like this. I wanted to do lemur islands but had to put bridge in that I didn't want for keepers

 

[BiologicalHorror]

I know this is an old thread but please frontier we need this!

I know it can be done since the mechanic already exists with the ability to add multiple guest gates. We just need the same option for staff only gates so keepers can access certain areas, even if it means having staff gates, guest gates, and a main habitat gate. It is so hard building useable realistic backstage areas because I have to make sure entry points are large enough for keepers all the time. It looks so silly when an small animal has such a tall entry door. Want a habitat connected via an overhead tunnel? Good luck because the keepers can't enter half of it currently.

 

[Xrystal]

I've used guest gates with staff path access to help multiple staff to access the habitat. I've noticed that they tend to only use the Habitat gate for the initial review but can't remember if they have to use it to feed and clean.
I haven't watched them long term though so can't confirm that they use guest gates to go out one portion and enter another portion in the same task cycle. One to look into methinks.
But .. they do make handy pass through paths to other areas of the zoo.

 

[BiologicalHorror]

I've used guest gates with staff path access to help multiple staff to access the habitat. I've noticed that they tend to only use the Habitat gate for the initial review but can't remember if they have to use it to feed and clean.
I haven't watched them long term though so can't confirm that they use guest gates to go out one portion and enter another portion in the same task cycle. One to look into methinks.
But .. they do make handy pass through paths to other areas of the zoo.

Staff can only interact with habitats through the Habitat gate. Found this out for sure in the Barnyard Scenario because I placed barriers in the two areas that are meant to be for only animals to go through to prevent guests from going back there, and it blocked staff from being able access any enrichment items in the other side despite a staff path leading to a guest gate. Also guests can walk on staff paths in an animal encounter habitat.

 

[NZFanatic]

The problem is that a habitat is defined by the keeper gate. Adding a second gate effectively layers a second habitat on top of the first, at least according to current functionality. While I would love this ability (would certainly make it easier to do convincing cross-path habitats and such if you can stick a gate on both ends), I imagine it's a fairly large hurdle for Frontier to jump. If it was easy to implement, it doubtless would have already been done.

 

[Xrystal]

Staff can only interact with habitats through the Habitat gate. Found this out for sure in the Barnyard Scenario because I placed barriers in the two areas that are meant to be for only animals to go through to prevent guests from going back there, and it blocked staff from being able access any enrichment items in the other side despite a staff path leading to a guest gate. Also guests can walk on staff paths in an animal encounter habitat.

I'll double check it, maybe things changed since I noticed them use them for access rather than walk throughs. And yes, the new walk everywhere in the encounter habitats may affect things differently in those habitats. But, from memory ( it was years ago ) the zoo keeper would go in through the habitat gate, do their inspection, leave through the habitat gate to make food and then I am sure they walked back in through the nearest gate again.

 

[Xrystal]

Well, it does indeed highlight an issue. A bunch of meekats in this habitat. Zoo keepers constantly complaining about having to clean it up because they literally do not access to work in the habitat via the guest gates, even when I added a guest gate/path route through the habitat sections rather than in and out . I was sure they were doing this a few years back but I'm getting old and memory may be wrong rofl.

However, all of my multi section habitats in the proper zoos have zoo keeper access as well either through a gap, elevated path. etc. But backstage access would definitely be tidier.

 

[BiologicalHorror]

The problem is that a habitat is defined by the keeper gate. Adding a second gate effectively layers a second habitat on top of the first, at least according to current functionality. While I would love this ability (would certainly make it easier to do convincing cross-path habitats and such if you can stick a gate on both ends), I imagine it's a fairly large hurdle for Frontier to jump. If it was easy to implement, it doubtless would have already been done.

Right that's why I think we need probably a 3rd type of gate that gives keepers access but doesn't define the overall habitat like the habitat gate does:

I know it can be done since the mechanic already exists with the ability to add multiple guest gates. We just need the same option for staff only gates so keepers can access certain areas, even if it means having staff gates, guest gates, and a main habitat gate.

That or just allow it so staff can also access through Guest Gates.

 

[NZFanatic]

Right that's why I think we need probably a 3rd type of gate that gives keepers access but doesn't define the overall habitat like the habitat gate does:

Theoretically possible, but again, this has been a topic of discussion basically since release in 2019 so there's probably a good reason Frontier hasn't done it.

That or just allow it so staff can also access through Guest Gates.

They can access the habitat through guest gates, but they can't interact with it. The guest gate is technically just a path extension.

 

[Xrystal]

Theoretically possible, but again, this has been a topic of discussion basically since release in 2019 so there's probably a good reason Frontier hasn't done it.

One reason could possibly be to discourage super sized habitats .. because we could. And of course .. bigger habitats mean more animals ( in the huge adult count habitats ) which would impact on the gameplay even more than it does now.

I mean, I know I would create a savannah zoo with all those animals that can go together in one super super sized safari habitat. It was my first habitat during testing and the gate problem reared its head back then as you said. And I recall those discussions back then. Different ways to create that habitat around the staff buildings .. which we also found isn't physically possible due to how the habitats are designed to work.

 

[NZFanatic]

One reason could possibly be to discourage super sized habitats

I'm more inclined to think the reason is technical. Keeping in mind that staff navigation in Planet Zoo isn't like it was in Zoo Tycoon 2. Guest navigation and animal navigation seem to be the two main forms of movement in the game; guest navigation is tied to paths, animal navigation is tied to traversible terrain. On one side of the habitat gate, staff use guest navigation and are tied to paths, but on the other side, they switch to animal navigation and are tied to traversible terrain. Whereas in Zoo Tycoon 2 staff navigation and animal navigation was the same no matter what, and a gate was pretty much just a means of creating a gap in the habitat fence to allow staff to pass through it (IIRC if it was left open animals could escape through it, too). In that sense, you could place down as many gates as you wanted in ZT2 (but then staff would wander endlessly anyway to feed animals, so it was a moot point).

In PZ it's very different. The gate needs to be a switch between the two forms of navigation (in theory, I'm just parroting what I've seen others say and am not at all an expert) so the staff can move from the external path to the internal habitat (which is why habitat gates have to be linked to the paths to work). Again, in theory it ought to be possible to create a new gate that only has this function (which is, effectively, what the guest gate actually is, in a way), but in order for keepers to service the habitat, they need to recognise that the gate they are passing through is access to the habitat, not just an extension of the path (like the guest gate). It all sounds very confusing, but because the gate is the defining feature of a habitat, it seems like a complicated problem.

Effectively, staff go through the gate, and then the "this is a habitat" switch flips, so they can service the habitat. Also worth noting they only actually enter the habitat if they intend on doing something (cleaning, feeding, whatever). Otherwise they don't move beyond a 5m(?) gap in front of the gate. IMO that is where they switch to animal navigation, when there is something to do.

 

[Xrystal]

Yeah, technical is the other reason I had. It might involve more changes than is ideal and was never considered when they were setting up that stuff. But ... if they ever do plan on a future Planet Zoo 2 .. maybe they will have this planned in from the get go. Sometimes it is better to skip an addition that would be linked to various elements, in case it adversely affects those other elements. We all know that sometimes fixing 1 bug, usually creates 10 more rofl.

But I do concur with your thoughts on how they work.

1. Time trigger : Check Habitat
2. Enter Habitat gate and run through check list
3a. Zoo Keeper : Start with top priority - go away and make food
3b. Vet : Collect up ill / dead animal , watch them for research purposes
3c: Engineer : Start Repairs
4. Zoo Keeper: Come back with food and enter habitat to place it
5. Zoo Keeper : Start cleaning
Now we can help speed up the process by having 2 zoo keepers - one to feed and one to clean and let them work in tandem

 

[NZFanatic]

Yeah, technical is the other reason I had. It might involve more changes than is ideal and was never considered when they were setting up that stuff. But ... if they ever do plan on a future Planet Zoo 2 .. maybe they will have this planned in from the get go. Sometimes it is better to skip an addition that would be linked to various elements, in case it adversely affects those other elements. We all know that sometimes fixing 1 bug, usually creates 10 more rofl.

But I do concur with your thoughts on how they work.

1. Time trigger : Check Habitat
2. Enter Habitat gate and run through check list
3a. Zoo Keeper : Start with top priority - go away and make food
3b. Vet : Collect up ill / dead animal , watch them for research purposes
3c: Engineer : Start Repairs
4. Zoo Keeper: Come back with food and enter habitat to place it
5. Zoo Keeper : Start cleaning
Now we can help speed up the process by having 2 zoo keepers - one to feed and one to clean and let them work in tandem

Yeah, but it still doesn't fix the problem of a habitat only recognising one gate as a point of entry. A second gate wouldn't be a 'habitat gate', it would just be an access point. So in theory the keeper still has to go to the actual gate, figure out priorities, and then would only use the second gate if it was faster to get to than walking through the habitat because of how habitats function. Otherwise it's like I said, the game thinks a second gate is the same as a second habitat and it turns into a buggy mess.

 

[Xrystal]

Yeah, but it still doesn't fix the problem of a habitat only recognising one gate as a point of entry. A second gate wouldn't be a 'habitat gate', it would just be an access point. So in theory the keeper still has to go to the actual gate, figure out priorities, and then would only use the second gate if it was faster to get to than walking through the habitat because of how habitats function. Otherwise it's like I said, the game thinks a second gate is the same as a second habitat and it turns into a buggy mess.

I know, hopefully planning from the get go to have a staff access ( rather than walk through ) gate would mean future iterations ( if they choose to do that ) would have it considered at the early stages.

So what we have at the moment is ..
Habitat Gates - check point and access gate for staff
Guest Gates are weird combinations - access gate for guests, but walk through gates for staff and guests

What if we can do this instead .. ( obviously this is where the technical issues may come into play )
Habitat Gate - Check Point for staff
Staff Gate - Access Point for staff
Guest Gate - Access Point for guests / walk through for staff and guests

This of course would mean that they would have to be able to identify whether the staff member is in checkpoint mode or access mode. If they are doing this already then adding a gate or gate option with access mode usage should make this relatively easy. Path find nearest gate with access mode usage - use it. Path find nearest gate with checkpoint mode - use it.

Programming wise it seems easy enough, but it does rely on how they have things coded to work now. I suspect the fact that they haven't added this functionality already means that the code is not currently compatible with this idea.

 

[TaroMe89]

I recently found a way to install a second habitat gate, but to do this, a second enclosure had to be drawn around the first one (as a solution, the "fence" can also be placed underground to cross to the other "fence") (ps.: if you don't draw it around it and only make two enclosures that are connected with components, for example, the animals will be shown as having escaped as soon as they cross the border). The disadvantage is the path calculation of the habitats. Since climbing opportunities and toys can only be assigned to one habitat, an animal must also be placed in the enclosure through each habitat gate, otherwise the enclosure in which no animal has been placed will not be recognized as an occupied enclosure and thus will not be maintained.

If Frontier were to link the path finding of the toys to the animals instead of to the habitat, the above would be a good solution.

If you turn off the animal requirements settings for toys and climbing equipment in the sandbox, there are no problems here either.

a professional solution from frontier would of course be desirable

 

[1989Kitsune]

One reason could possibly be to discourage super sized habitats .. because we could. And of course .. bigger habitats mean more animals ( in the huge adult count habitats ) which would impact on the gameplay even more than it does now.

I mean, I know I would create a savannah zoo with all those animals that can go together in one super super sized safari habitat. It was my first habitat during testing and the gate problem reared its head back then as you said. And I recall those discussions back then. Different ways to create that habitat around the staff buildings .. which we also found isn't physically possible due to how the habitats are designed to work.

What about just shifting the 1-gate limit to a 2-gate limit that way you don't have the option of a supersized habitat with numerous entry points.

Besides. You can use a terrain trick to overlap habitats so they still count as separate habitats but where theres less space used. I use it to make a polar bear/penguin habitat that takes up half the space it would otherwise if i kept them side by side. (ie see picture. The first is the PB traverable area. The second shows the penguin overlapping the polar bears shelter area and looking like the underwater penguin viewing cascades to the PB swimming pool. But they are entirely seperate barriers and seperate habitat gates. Nor can the keepers traverse both without exitting one and reentering on the otherside). Or for having lemurs/monkeys traversing above guest paths without interfering with pathing/other habitats. I don't know if the same trick would allow for covering for something like an overpass in a habitat, haven't tried that yet since most of my overpass habitats are big cats, bears, etc that already require so much space its easier just to make it keeper traversable too. I'll ocasionally use it to give the illusion of a single habitat but being two seperate ones so i can get bigger groups of animals together like four tigers instead of two for breeding and not set off the welfare issues.

 

[Xrystal]

What about just shifting the 1-gate limit to a 2-gate limit that way you don't have the option of a supersized habitat with numerous entry points.

Besides. You can use a terrain trick to overlap habitats so they still count as separate habitats but where theres less space used. I use it to make a polar bear/penguin habitat that takes up half the space it would otherwise if i kept them side by side. (ie see picture. The first is the PB traverable area. The second shows the penguin overlapping the polar bears shelter area and looking like the underwater penguin viewing cascades to the PB swimming pool. But they are entirely seperate barriers and seperate habitat gates. Nor can the keepers traverse both without exitting one and reentering on the otherside). Or for having lemurs/monkeys traversing above guest paths without interfering with pathing/other habitats. I don't know if the same trick would allow for covering for something like an overpass in a habitat, haven't tried that yet since most of my overpass habitats are big cats, bears, etc that already require so much space its easier just to make it keeper traversable too. I'll ocasionally use it to give the illusion of a single habitat but being two seperate ones so i can get bigger groups of animals together like four tigers instead of two for breeding and not set off the welfare issues.

Yeah, that would work for animals that wouldn't normally be together .. although I have trouble with things like deep water habitats and tree climbing species. I end up either destroying the landscape trying to create a deep water viewing area or 7m default walls with anti climbing features and no trees or climbable objects remotely close to the walls .. to make sure they don't escape rofl. But, for things like a conservation area, there could be tons of animals with several members of staff looking after them. Granted not quite the same as zoos but sometimes I like to make things that look more natural rather than zoo like.

But yeah, any improvement on the 1 gate limit would be good, but if you could put the zoo keepers on a rotating schedule so that you don't get them trying to enter at the same time would be a good feature too. But, maybe in the next incarnation of the game or some major content patch in the future if the next incarnation is still nowhere in site.

 

[Mjmannella]

I think the detection should be tweaked so it's defined as long as 1 gate is present. Extra gates would be applied but not counted as extra habitats if the perimeter already contains a gate.