AI still cheating/bugged.

[Cugastratos]

This has been happening to me multiple times, and it's frustrating that I can't complete certain SOLO (not wing) missions because they're bugged.

I was doing a transport mission where I received a notice saying "Incoming Enemy Alert 0/3". When the first enemy shows up, it is a Dangerous Python so I drop out of FSD in order to take it on for the bonus reward. I'm only competent level in combat by the way... Everything goes fine, System Security shows up and assists. Target eliminated for 1/3.... for only 130,000 credits.... uhhh.... chump change bonus reward for taking on another ship that is much higher ranked that I am???

I start heading back to the drop off station, and the second enemy shows up. So I drop out of FSD again... and prepare for it. It shows up, Deadly Python I start combat. But about 7 seconds in ANOTHER (probably the 3/3 of the incoming enemy or random pirate ship) ship shows pops up in the same area and I start getting double teamed TO DEATH...

Can't escape because your wonderfully imbalanced AI doesn't have to fiddle around with PIPs, ammo reloads, maneuvering, and heat (AI loves their plasma accelerators, railguns, and insanely fast reloading chaff), etc and takes out my power distributor... which means I can't escape since my thrusters couldn't recharge... System security can ONLY focus on one ship, which is the one that first fired on me. So I get murdered because your AI isn't programmed to only send one ship at a time, or prevent any more ships from dropping in on the player (I play only private or solo so it is never going to be another player as in OPEN) while player is focused on completing the mission.

This type of scenario has happened to me before as well, but it was an incoming enemy and a random pirate ship. Out gunned, and out manned, and AI getting really precise shots to prevent the player from escaping. I've had my thrusters and FSD taken out by your AI in one shot because IT CAN DO WHATEVER IT WANTS TO WIN. Even though I have some reasonable engineering done to protect myself, your AI can run around with FULLY ENGINEERED LEVEL 5 EVERYTHING. Many players don't even have that.

I've had to chase down AI constantly because they can engineer their thrusters to boost out of firing range in one boost while still having hardpoints out AND charging FSD at the same time.... players CAN'T do this!

It's discouraging to try and enjoy this title when the losses extremely outweigh the rewards by such a drastic margin. The reward is only 1.2 million credits, and I have to pony up 7million to replace my ship AS WELL as pay the FINE for a reward that only gives you nowhere near to cost of the loss.

Instead of giving piddly mission/bonus rewards for allied factions, players should receive a hell of a lot more

Second LIMIT HOW MANY MAXIMUM level engineered items the AI can have. Instead of giving the AI 100% max engineered ships, allocate what builds the AI can be allowed to have in the FIRST PLACE... all out attack with weak armor/shields with at most 2 level 5 engineering for weapons/shields/hull etc. The deadly Python I went up against took way too long to take out it's shields with my own PYTHON combat/transport build using piddly level 1-3 engineered weapons, shield generators, shield boosters, thrusters, and FSD.

It takes players months/years to get everything they can to engineer whatever ship they want to maximum while your AI only has to just pick whatever YOU make available to it in seconds.

And obviously, check to see why the AI can reload and use chaff so quickly... there is no engineering for chaff reload time that the players know of because we're constantly getting stiffed since the AI is using super accurate fixed weapon attacks (as I said, they LOVE their PA and Railguns...) when we use our chaff and have to wait so long for reload that we can see the AI use chaff twice in the time it takes for us to use and reload one.

 

[Cugastratos]

I HAD to add this due to how broken your AI is. Just finished up another transport mission. Received incoming enemy alert 0/4.... The enemy shows up as an Imperial courier ( didn't identify it's difficulty level)... I yield to interdiction so I can take it down. Me and the AI trade blows until the AI decides to skedaddle... by identifying that the system security/major power group is going to show up... seconds BEFORE they ACTUALLY SHOW UP.... So it escapes with it's uber thruster out of player firing range in one boost. And I can't catch up before it's gone, and I look at the incoming enemy message and it counts it as 1/4... I'm a bit shocked as I thought 1/4 would only occur on destruction of target. So I go back towards FSD for my destination and the next incoming enemy immediately shows up... and it's turned into an Anaconda... Usually these enemies use the exact same type of ship over the course of the 0/4 incoming enemy alerts... Not only does it immediately interdict me as soon as I've gotten into FSD supercruise... IT STARTS FIRING IT'S WEAPONS for a split second WHILE INTERDICTING ME IN SUPERCRUISE!!!! That is the most broken thing I've ever experienced in this game!

I've learned over the time I've been playing this title when the AI wants me dead... it will ALWAYS sends a Deadly or higher level ANACONDA at me 100%... This is no different. So I'm in a python that should be capable of holding out against this ship, and wait for system security and I'm rather ticked because it had it's hardpoints available to it in supercruise...

Because the AI can just destroy anything it wants to in one shot to make sure I'm dead one way or another, it somehow is able to shoot through the back of my ship (with my shields up) and bust open my canopy in ONE hit FROM BEHIND... remember... I'm in a PYTHON. Canopy is not easily broken in a PYTHON. Now I'm obviously very angry about this turn of events, and luckily system security had shown up and we worked over the Anaconda down to about 6% HP...

Now, since the very first time this has happened to me (which cost me an 8mil rebuy because I couldn't land at the outpost station even though it has a MEDIUM sized landing pad...) with a busted canopy, I was able to take the time to craft some more oxygen, and hightail it to the nearest large starport (which depending on what system you're in, may not even have anything but outposts...). It' needs to be made sure that the player can get canopy repairs at ANY outpost/planetary landing as long as the players ship can fit on any pad it has available. The first time I've experienced a busted canopy, I was in a medium sized ship, but was not allowed to land on a medium sized landing pad at the outpost because for some stupid reason, I could only get the canopy fixed at a STARPORT.... And unfortunately for me, there were NO starports in the system I was in at the time and I couldn't go into high FSD to another system.

Fact is, the AI is playing by it's own rules that the player can't do at all. The AI needs to be better programmed to stay in the player lane and not be capable of doing what I just mentioned above. It's broken, it's unfair, and it's poorly implemented when it's it has capabilities extremely beyond the player's own accessibility in the game.

 

[Morbad]

Can't escape because your wonderfully imbalanced AI doesn't have to fiddle around with PIPs, ammo reloads, maneuvering, and heat (AI loves their plasma accelerators, railguns, and insanely fast reloading chaff), etc and takes out my power distributor... which means I can't escape since my thrusters couldn't recharge...

AI has to account for nearly all of these things and have delays programmed in for things like pip management. They also cannot utilize FA off. The only weapons they have unlimited ammo for are multi-cannon and they suffer the same effects from heat as CMDR vessels. They also have the same chaff launchers we do, but like CMDRs, some NPCs carry more than one.

Out gunned, and out manned, and AI getting really precise shots to prevent the player from escaping. I've had my thrusters and FSD taken out by your AI in one shot because IT CAN DO WHATEVER IT WANTS TO WIN. Even though I have some reasonable engineering done to protect myself, your AI can run around with FULLY ENGINEERED LEVEL 5 EVERYTHING. Many players don't even have that.

While it would be nice if AI could target specific subsystems, they don't. NPCs always aim for the center of the target, but shots land where they land.

NPC vessels are also almost never fully Engineered. Higher rank NPCs usually have many Engineered modules, but outside of ATR, wing assassinations, and Spec Ops, weapon specials are very rare and most NPCs, even high rank ones, fall far short of what high rank Horizons CMDRs will have.

I've had to chase down AI constantly because they can engineer their thrusters to boost out of firing range in one boost while still having hardpoints out AND charging FSD at the same time.... players CAN'T do this!

Now this is the one example you've mentioned of NPCs actually breaking the rules.

It's discouraging to try and enjoy this title when the losses extremely outweigh the rewards by such a drastic margin. The reward is only 1.2 million credits, and I have to pony up 7million to replace my ship AS WELL as pay the FINE for a reward that only gives you nowhere near to cost of the loss.

Losses are rare, rewards are not.

Instead of giving piddly mission/bonus rewards for allied factions, players should receive a hell of a lot more

The game practically throws money at CMDRs already.

Second LIMIT HOW MANY MAXIMUM level engineered items the AI can have. Instead of giving the AI 100% max engineered ships, allocate what builds the AI can be allowed to have in the FIRST PLACE... all out attack with weak armor/shields with at most 2 level 5 engineering for weapons/shields/hull etc. The deadly Python I went up against took way too long to take out it's shields with my own PYTHON combat/transport build using piddly level 1-3 engineered weapons, shield generators, shield boosters, thrusters, and FSD.

This is already done and your account is a gross exaggeration. Chances are your level of Engineering wasn't far off your opponents'.

It takes players months/years to get everything they can to engineer whatever ship they want to maximum while your AI only has to just pick whatever YOU make available to it in seconds.

Not in the current system it doesn't. Also, NPCs are supposed to represent non-Pilots Federation pilots that can actually die, and who have been around for however long they've been alive as in-game characters.

Your CMDR gets to ride home in an instantaneously fast escape pod and gets 95%+ of the cost of their ship back, no questions asked, no dings on their record. The NPC becomes a cloud of slowly cooling gore.

And obviously, check to see why the AI can reload and use chaff so quickly... there is no engineering for chaff reload time that the players know of because we're constantly getting stiffed since the AI is using super accurate fixed weapon attacks (as I said, they LOVE their PA and Railguns...) when we use our chaff and have to wait so long for reload that we can see the AI use chaff twice in the time it takes for us to use and reload one.

Again, it's not rare for higher rank NPCs to have dual chaff. Many CMDR vessels carry even more. Two or more chaff launchers used sequentially can keep a constant cloud of chaff up until they are depleted...and CMDRs can synthesize more, but NPCs cannot.

Me and the AI trade blows until the AI decides to skedaddle... by identifying that the system security/major power group is going to show up... seconds BEFORE they ACTUALLY SHOW UP....

CMDRs also get warnings for incoming authorities, before they arrive.

So it escapes with it's uber thruster out of player firing range in one boost. And I can't catch up before it's gone

Well, you are in a Python.

Not only does it immediately interdict me as soon as I've gotten into FSD supercruise... IT STARTS FIRING IT'S WEAPONS for a split second WHILE INTERDICTING ME IN SUPERCRUISE!!!! That is the most broken thing I've ever experienced in this game!

I'm extremely skeptical of this actually taking place.

Are you positive you weren't confusing the interdictor use, or the basic scan, that will show a flashing sensor contact, with incoming fire?

Because the AI can just destroy anything it wants to in one shot

My CMDR has shot down twenty-five thousand NPC vessels since the last time he's lost a ship to NPC fire four years ago. These NPCs have been of all kinds of ships and ranks and my CMDR has used all kinds of ships, some completely devoid of any Engineering.

Even if NPCs could 'want' anything, they would struggle to shoot down any of a large fraction of CMDRs under any circumstances.

Fact is, the AI is playing by it's own rules that the player can't do at all. The AI needs to be better programmed to stay in the player lane and not be capable of doing what I just mentioned above. It's broken, it's unfair, and it's poorly implemented when it's it has capabilities extremely beyond the player's own accessibility in the game.

The NPCs are, by and large, far more limited than CMDRs. They have no persistence and will reset from instance to instance, unless a wake scanner is used; they also are able to use their FSDs in some circumstances where CMDR vessels could not; they have unlimited multi-cannon ammo; the rare example has phasing beam lasers; and ATR have absurd reverberating cascade burst lasers to make up for their general incompetence...but in every other way, their capabilities are well below what's possible for a Horizons CMDR.

 

[metatheurgist]

Ah, the I can't beat the Ai so it must be cheating thread. Thanks, haven't seen this one for a while, beats the other dead horses.

 

[moorison]

Not only does it immediately interdict me as soon as I've gotten into FSD supercruise... IT STARTS FIRING IT'S WEAPONS for a split second WHILE INTERDICTING ME IN SUPERCRUISE!!!! That is the most broken thing I've ever experienced in this game!

Is it possible you have seen the special damage type indicator blinking while being interdicted? I noticed that these remain active after combat finished, probably a UI bug.

Other unrelated NPCs can participate in a combat situation as well, especially if you have something in your cargo hold. Mission NPCs only appear one after another in my experience, but if you have more than ine active mission, NPCs from different missions can attack you at the same time.

 

[Sylow]

Target eliminated for 1/3.... for only 130,000 credits.... uhhh.... chump change bonus reward for taking on another ship that is much higher ranked that I am???

It's the normal money for such enemies. Also, if the attacker is much higher ranked than you are, it's because you took a mission of higher challenge rating.

Can't escape because your wonderfully imbalanced AI doesn't have to fiddle around with PIPs, ammo reloads, maneuvering, and heat (AI loves their plasma accelerators, railguns, and insanely fast reloading chaff), etc and takes out my power distributor... which means I can't escape since my thrusters couldn't recharge... System security can ONLY focus on one ship, which is the one that first fired on me.

As Morbad already explained: the only "cheating" NPCs do are with multicannon ammo. That's a known workaround for a bug. But if you survive long enough for an NPC to use up all multicannon ammo on you, then there's another problem...

All the other claims are wrong. Which of course means that enough people fully believe in them. For example it's very easy to check for chaff: find an NPC, check how many chaff launchers it carries. Yes, some carry more than one. Players can also do that. Shoot at it with a gimbaled weapon, see that it triggers chaff. Wait till chaff is over, rinse and repeat. You can see that it'll be able to use chaff 11 times per launcher installed. After that it stops using chaff.

At some time, when trying weird setups, i learned the same about SBCs. My ship didn't have the punch to burn through an Elite Anacondas SBCs. But after a while, the Elite Anaconda stopped using them. It ran out.

And yes, NPCs also don't target subsystems. They go for center mass and just destroy whatever is in the way. Which indeed for some ships means that the power distributor is often hit. But it's really on you. Know where your important systems are, turn them away from the enemy and you are good.

So I get murdered because your AI isn't programmed to only send one ship at a time, or prevent any more ships from dropping in on the player (I play only private or solo so it is never going to be another player as in OPEN) while player is focused on completing the mission.

Why should pirates always only send one ship at a time? Is there some secret pirates code of honor, to always only attack with one ship?

I've had to chase down AI constantly because they can engineer their thrusters to boost out of firing range in one boost while still having hardpoints out AND charging FSD at the same time.... players CAN'T do this!

That's more interesting. That's indeed a problem which existed for a while. It supposedly was fixed during the last big patch. I haven't experienced it since then, but i also rarely give NPCs the time to run. If it still happened to you, can you say when and where it happened? Outside of older threads on the forum, that is. Best with some evidence. FD might be very interested in this, as it's a supposedly fixed bug.

It's discouraging to try and enjoy this title when the losses extremely outweigh the rewards by such a drastic margin. The reward is only 1.2 million credits, and I have to pony up 7million to replace my ship AS WELL as pay the FINE for a reward that only gives you nowhere near to cost of the loss.

Losses happen when you take risks. Check the difficulty of the mission before you take it. Check around. People here complain that money is way too easy to be made. People are swimming in cash. Apply a bit of caution in what you do and you can do the same.

Second LIMIT HOW MANY MAXIMUM level engineered items the AI can have. Instead of giving the AI 100% max engineered ships, allocate what builds the AI can be allowed to have in the FIRST PLACE... all out attack with weak armor/shields with at most 2 level 5 engineering for weapons/shields/hull etc. The deadly Python I went up against took way too long to take out it's shields with my own PYTHON combat/transport build using piddly level 1-3 engineered weapons, shield generators, shield boosters, thrusters, and FSD.

Again: yes, deadly NPCs run plenty of engineered stuff. But they still are a joke compared to what players can field. Many of my ships can, if needed, just facetank an elite ranked Anaconda and burn it down before my shields even go low. Would NPCs have engineering just in the same league of my ships, doing so would be suicide.

It takes players months/years to get everything they can to engineer whatever ship they want to maximum while your AI only has to just pick whatever YOU make available to it in seconds.

That's in the nature of NPCs. They get spawned to be destroyed. They are cannonfodder, which just is there to entertain you. If you of course go for something well above your league, who is to blame? You picked the deadly or elite rated mission, so you get deadly and elite rated NPCs. You told the game you want the challenge, the game just went along.

So I go back towards FSD for my destination and the next incoming enemy immediately shows up... and it's turned into an Anaconda... Usually these enemies use the exact same type of ship over the course of the 0/4 incoming enemy alerts.

That indeed is a known issue. Instancing shows its ugly face here. Also note that an almost destroyed enemy returns at 100% health and shields again. I hope FD will fix that, but my optimism is limited.

IT STARTS FIRING IT'S WEAPONS for a split second WHILE INTERDICTING ME IN SUPERCRUISE!!!!

Do you have any evidence to support that? It's the very first time anybody says something like that. Considering how many things you wrote above, which obviously are wrong, i admit that i have a hard time believing it. Sorry.

 

[Azmuth Divarchchron]

Yeah the AI has been allowed to cheat for the longest time mostly because people complained when frontier made the ai smarter. So frontier made the AI dumb again and put their cheats back.

Its really disappointing, Id rather have smart AI that are actually good at the game and dont cheat, than dumb AI that are allowed to cheat but arent any good at the game.

 

[Kwaighos]

I don't know if it's cheating or working as intended but it is positively un-fun to be killed in 3 seconds. I was doing a salvage mission, low level not wartime high security system, and I had opened the scoop and was closing in my target and something popped out of nowhere and the only thing I had time to do was throttle up and then I was dead.

 

[count_headshot]

Well, I'm bad at combat as in combat missions (I can easily do the odd interdiction). While the NPCs do seem a tad too strong for a game of this type, the only thing I saw one could consider unfair was, when I was beating up two paltry Cobras in my armed-to-the-teeth Conda, that I suddenly started to overheat for no apparent reason. Not talking the usual uh-oh-101 percent, no, 100, 200, 300... and so on. All retracted that didn't break within seconds, fleeing, already far from the action, heating still continued until BOOM.

No idea if that was a bug or some kind of weapon Competent class Cobras can shoot through a Conda's good as new 7A shields.

 

[Kenpachi85]

Ever since I got long range beam lasers and multicannons the npcs have seemed like fluffy bunnies to me even if they dont follow the same rules as us. The biggest problem I have is they dont seem to want to stay and fight anymore and are too quick to run away. I take on elite wing assasination/massacre missions all the time and even get jumped by multiple targets at a time and have never had my shields drop from a npc since I got better at combat.

Pirate activity areas are a different story I've never been to a P.A.D. signal and can't speak to how hard the npcs in those would be. I hear they are engineered to the max and that fighting em is like fighting another cmdr though I wouldn't know yet.

 

[Azmuth Divarchchron]

Well, I'm bad at combat as in combat missions (I can easily do the odd interdiction). While the NPCs do seem a tad too strong for a game of this type, the only thing I saw one could consider unfair was, when I was beating up two paltry Cobras in my armed-to-the-teeth Conda, that I suddenly started to overheat for no apparent reason. Not talking the usual uh-oh-101 percent, no, 100, 200, 300... and so on. All retracted that didn't break within seconds, fleeing, already far from the action, heating still continued until BOOM.

No idea if that was a bug or some kind of weapon Competent class Cobras can shoot through a Conda's good as new 7A shields.

you probably accidentaly activated silent running and didnt realize it. Silent running also deactivates your shields

 

[MDHansen]

Excellent thread, would read again, 10/10

(sorry I got nothing constructive, it's late and I really enjoy a sour rant in the evenings)


fly safe



EDIT: first responder at post 3 nails it

 

[Cugastratos]

I've been getting better at combat and trying to learn just how the AI works. It's still pretty imbalanced in many areas unless you get the exact engineered mods needed for specific situations. I just recently bought an Annie Conda, and was sick and tired of PvE Ships chaffing, then super-boosting about 5km in 2 seconds with 100% HP and or shields, so I put long range engineering on my multicannons. Thankfully that has helped put a few of these cocaine hyped FSD bunnies out of MY misery.
I'm wondering if they don't have enough of a throttle between the response time of the AI by the time the player sends an input action to the server. I've heard that in many games the AI opponent has to have it's reaction time slowed down on the server side to not outpace the player in speed. Seeing as how many of us experience PvE ships with 0% HP still firing, or boosting, or flying away before finally blowing up or super jumping I can see why.
I've heard someone say that Elite Dangerous is very different from many other flight combat games (like AC7) because most flight combat games involve chasing and firing on your opponent.
When I got into ED, I didn't see it as chasing, but more of maneuvering into a better attack position. The lower level AI ranging from "Harmless to Expert" have so far maneuvered into more advantageous positions for the player. The higher ones have a habit of always having their nose pointed directly at you unless they get distracted by system security or something else allowing the player to get a better firing position for the moment.
Also it seems like since the most recent update, taking out PvE ship modules is becoming more useless. I've taken out a few power plants, drives, and the AI doesn't seem fazed at all and carries on like nothing happened. I thought the point of taking out modules was to make it easier to take down the target. Take out it's weapons so it can't hit you with anything serious... take out the drives so it has a harder time moving... take out the FSD so it can't jump... and yet it still usese these things with 0% health to those modules.

 

[Sylow]

Also it seems like since the most recent update, taking out PvE ship modules is becoming more useless. I've taken out a few power plants, drives, and the AI doesn't seem fazed at all and carries on like nothing happened. I thought the point of taking out modules was to make it easier to take down the target. Take out it's weapons so it can't hit you with anything serious... take out the drives so it has a harder time moving... take out the FSD so it can't jump... and yet it still usese these things with 0% health to those modules.

Can you prove anything of that? I mean, it's true that NPCs now can continue fighting with the PP at 0%. Just like we players always were able to, when setting our priorities accordingly.

But for the rest i have my doubts. I haven't specifically tested these things since the last big patch. So yes, things could have changed. But last year it was still possible to drop a targets shields, hammer it with a few missiles and most of its weapons go offline. Drop the engines to 0% and it drifts in a straight line. What is true: many players run into drive problems earlier, as malfunctions randomly put you into FAoff. NPCs have direct thruster control, so as long as they are not destroyed yet, NPCs can handle them rather fine. For the FSD i have to admit that i never bothered to destroy that one. I rather just destroy the ship itself.

But if these bugs now really exist, i'd be interested in some evidence beyond forum postings.

 

[Northpin]

I can confirm that destroying npc's thrusters will send them tumbling in a straight line flight path, straight but speedy.
Not sure how speedy tho. My NPC crew in F63 can keep up with them, but myself in a conda/vette have to perma boost to be able to close the distance, albeit rather slowly