AI Strength vs Player Ability

Here's a quick sloppy chart I did up to highlight the issue (as I see it).
454ZEjp.jpg
One of my accounts has a Competent combat rank (almost Expert) and has no issues in combat, interdictions or RES/CZ. The second account has just made it to Dangerous rank a month ago and I have severe issues killing a Dangerous or Elite opponent. It's only happened once (I had 25% hull left after doing so), I've died repeated times and am still at 0% rank. Obviously, this means my ability in combat lays between these two points and given the location on the chart, it makes me "average". I suspect most players are in or near this range. If you are currently not having problems, your rank may not be high enough yet.

The "Git Gud" crowd claim they have no issues and some say they actually want combat to be even harder. So how do we reconcile this disparity? The skill level of each player reading this will be at a different point on the above scale. A selector for easy, medium or hard AI is problematic and can probably be misused. There should only be one level for all, but obviously if this were done, the Git Gud perfect twitch combat pilots would moan it was too easy and the debate would go on and on.

There's been suggestions from some players (assuming they actually own the game and and not trolling) that those having issues write support and dial-back their combat rating which only offsets the problem. Not to mention, a reduction in rank also equates to a reduction in mission income, etc. which I would actually consider a punishment caused by onerous game mechanics. People are seriously saying the game is too hard for you to advance, so manually tweak your combat rating down to keep playing. How many games do you own where a manual override from support is needed? I have 224 games on Steam and Elite is the only one.

Elite is a game where the higher your rank, the higher the reward. It's worked that way since the game came out and until 2.1 I had no issues with that. The only way I see that AI combat level will work for everyone is to set it at a reasonable standard so that average players, like myself, can still advance, but have an optional check box that adds additional difficulty for the 1% of players who are infused with Red Bull and want harder combats.

There's other issues as well. Railguns and Engineer module mods should be removed from NPC ships until the AI is balanced to a reasonable point, then we can add them back one at a time and see what sort of impact that has on the game.

That's my $0.02. What's yours?
 
I'm one of those guys not having any problems with the current AI and am about 40% away from Elite-combat ranked. I do find Elite opponents not as deadly as I presume they should be, but all of the other ranks seem to fall in line (IMO Elite-ranked opponents should have the combat prowess of all other ranks combined).

However I don't believe I'm in the "Git Gud" crowd because I don't really consider myself good - I've been bested in PVP several times and have sweated getting jumped by 3 NPC Vultures, but one on one I've been able to defeat Elite Annies without breaking my shields.
 
They could simply calculate it based on ratio of kills vs times killed rather than simply # of kills you've made. That would more accurately reflect combat competence than what they currently do.
 
Seems fairly simple: Elite has always been about becoming Elite. The lore and and previous games show that only very, very few ever get there. The rest is somewhere between harmless and deadly. So the game should provide adequate challenge for every level. Right now that isnt happening: harmless missions are near impossible to fail, but Elite missions are far too easy: half the time literally nothing happens, which isnt very difficult to handle. :p Outside of missions, difficulty should be strictly based on your region, and rank difference:

1) The lower the security of the system, the more interdictions by more dangerous NPC
2) High-end NPC are not interested in newbies, and low-rank NPCs are not interested in commiting suicide by attacking an elite cmdr.

The only problem is that people have inflated ranks: if you're dangerous and cant kill dangerous or higher NPCs, you are one of them. It is indeed odd to have to ask support to lower it, but it is what it is. As for you gettting less money then: I'd consider the money you currently get to be too much as you arent really the level you 'claim' to have. Its not 'your fault', but it should be rectified. Finally, high-end NPCs should have high-end mods and railguns should stay. Its about scaling difficulty, dropping the top-end is nonsensical. Rather, we should find a way for you to experience less danger without making it too hard or easy for others. Regionalised difficulty is the way.

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They could simply calculate it based on ratio of kills vs times killed rather than simply # of kills you've made. That would more accurately reflect combat competence than what they currently do.

I'd prefer 'total bounties vs total insurance paid': killing 100 elite condas while losing 3 eagles is more impressive to me than killing 100 harmless sideys without losing your corvette. :p
 
Could these forums for one second admit there are high skill players who are not part of the 'get gud' crowd and do not look down on players who are at lower skill levels and that in no way does that crowd define high skill players as a whole.

Perhaps you could add, 'bads' for anything below that.(sounds fun to be labeled something stupid because of overgeneralization yes?)
 
Could these forums for one second admit there are high skill players who are not part of the 'get gud' crowd and do not look down on players who are at lower skill levels and that in no way does that crowd define high skill players as a whole.

Perhaps you could add, 'bads' for anything below that.(sounds fun to be labeled something stupid because of overgeneralization yes?)
That was never my intention. I simply lumped everyone into that category for simplicity. I meant players who find the current AI to be not hard enough and that's all.
 
I am 65% Deadly. Elite soon. So yes. I have issues.
I have FDL A Graded (all only A) and engineered to grade 4. Some weapons have Special Abilities.
Well... Sometimes it is hard to kill even viper. But sometimes they die in about 2 seconds.
What does it mean? Frontier made complete anarchy about AI.
Really sometimes it takes full distributor to kill Eagle.
 
No, I don't like the idea of increasing difficulty with ranks.

I'm 46% towards Elite in combat, but recently I decided to do some cargo hauls in a Hauler.
I accepted a low rank mission with non-existant payment that involved fetching a ware from nearby system.
A         elite Fer-der-lance spawned behind my ass and kept interdicting me. He was persistent, logging off didn't do anything, high waking didn't do anything. They even offered me 5000cr if I kill that guy with my hauler, WOW.
I tried taking a small Viper and killed a Type 6 for fun, good old undermining times, eh?
No, the game spawns an elite Python that keeps constantly interdicting me. I can run away yeah, but I cannot do anything until he or I die because he's constantly disturbing my activities.

I don't like the idea of difficulty scaling by rank or player ship. You have no control over ranks, you get them over time. And after some time more powerful foes will spawn regardless of your mood/activity/ship, and thus you will be locked out from using cheaper ships, because the game expects you to always fly a heavily armored Anaconda.

But I want to buzz around in an Adder sometimes. Or do casual courier jobs in a Hauler.

The best idea is LOW/HIGH security systems. Low for casual experience, high for git gud.
 
I'm Deadly I combat. I've been playing since a clean save at 1.3. I fly a Cobra that has some nice mods. I run missions and drop into USS of interest along the way. I fight whatever come my way and run when it's clear I can't beat them.

I feel the balance is just right on the ships I encounter. I've been cat-n-moused by NPCs and CMDRs. It's not hard to break the cycle. Just drop to zero throttle in SC and point your nose at them. Watch them circle you in frustration while never getting behind. They eventually drop (I don't know why) and you can move again.

I find the combat much more exciting now. I'm not really a res farmer. My skill level feels about right for the ships the game throws at me.
 
No, I don't like the idea of increasing difficulty with ranks.

I'm 46% towards Elite in combat, but recently I decided to do some cargo hauls in a Hauler.
I accepted a low rank mission with non-existant payment that involved fetching a ware from nearby system.
A elite Fer-der-lance spawned behind my ass and kept interdicting me. He was persistent, logging off didn't do anything, high waking didn't do anything. They even offered me 5000cr if I kill that guy with my hauler, WOW.
I tried taking a small Viper and killed a Type 6 for fun, good old undermining times, eh?
No, the game spawns an elite Python that keeps constantly interdicting me. I can run away yeah, but I cannot do anything until he or I die because he's constantly disturbing my activities.

I don't like the idea of difficulty scaling by rank or player ship. You have no control over ranks, you get them over time. And after some time more powerful foes will spawn regardless of your mood/activity/ship, and thus you will be locked out from using cheaper ships, because the game expects you to always fly a heavily armored Anaconda.

But I want to buzz around in an Adder sometimes. Or do casual courier jobs in a Hauler.

The best idea is LOW/HIGH security systems. Low for casual experience, high for git gud.

You got nabbed because your combat rating is high but you didn't set up your little truck the best way.
Rails, military hull, HR and sinks for stealth, for example make Adders and Haulers competitive.
They can out turn the FdL easily and hide with the use of heat sinks. a couple of well placed targetted thruster shots from behind will hurt that red and white pimpmobile. Mines help immensely as well, whatever the ship you're in.

Never let them joust you, learn to use FA off, boost turns and stick to his six.

There are already low/high security systems: Anarchies with compromised beacons and black markets, Fed or Imp hubs with high populations and the like.

When you improve so should the challenges you face.
The game in no way expects you to always fly a Conda either.
Medium size specialized ships made for the task at hand do best in this game.
IE tanked Vultures, short range interdictors like Fdls, stealth Diamondback smugglers, longrange AspX etc.

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I'm Deadly I combat. I've been playing since a clean save at 1.3. I fly a Cobra that has some nice mods. I run missions and drop into USS of interest along the way. I fight whatever come my way and run when it's clear I can't beat them.

I feel the balance is just right on the ships I encounter. I've been cat-n-moused by NPCs and CMDRs. It's not hard to break the cycle. Just drop to zero throttle in SC and point your nose at them. Watch them circle you in frustration while never getting behind. They eventually drop (I don't know why) and you can move again.

I find the combat much more exciting now. I'm not really a res farmer. My skill level feels about right for the ships the game throws at me.

Nose on zero throttle has saved my goat many a time. Repped.

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Oh, so I guess I'm in the "Get Good" crowd.

*Wears it like a badge*

<raises hand>

i lak badjges.
 
Part of the problem is the game sees you with Elite rank and takes you as an Elite pilot.
But Elite rank is based on the kills you've made. I suck at PvP so play a Grp game with my brother.
Unfortunately for us, we're not exactly as good as our Rank implies but the game don't know this.
I'm Elite, he's Dangerous. Even in my conda full equipped for combat, ie: no cargo just hull rnf &
SCB's I still get kicked. In my Cargo Vette they just rip me up unless I can get help.
NPC Elite pilots have Elite gear. It's been that way since I've been playing, but I used to be able to hold my own,
most times and prevail. Now I fight 1 ship and if I win, I'm a crippled wreck praying I don't get bounced again b4 finding a port!
And when I do get bounced, 98% of the time it's an Elite Conda. The rest of the time it's an Elite Ferdy.
Besides. I always got a kick out of the Eagle Drivers' Trash Talk when it bounced me in my vette. :]
I haven't upgraded to Horizons yet so it's been a lot harder since the 2.1.1 update. And I KNOW it's supposed to be "Dangerous",
but at what point does it start to seem suicidal? I would not like to try hauling a load of cargo a cpl hundred LY, cause I'd never survive.
I'd be getting bounced every cpl jumps and in a vette you're talking a TON of jumps, avg 10ly ea. And every one is an Elite Anaconda.
 
I noticed something today, running about the bubble in my unarmed (and non modded at the time) exploration asp (carrying cargo), I was only getting interdicted by small ships (dbx/asp scouts etc) equipped with standard non modded weapons. Interdictions were happening about 1 in every 10 jumps.

When I switched to my corvette (modded with thermal weapons and carrying the exact same cargo), the interdiction rate was about the same but I was getting interdicted by Anacondas and FDLs with modded weapons. In fact I experienced the first effective heat attack by an NPC, I was running away as I didn't have time to kill him, but he got my temp up to 85%. The temp seemed to stop there but if I had been firing/boosting or using an SCB I would have cooked!

I suspect NPC ships are set up to match your ship/load out and any mods you're using as well as taking into account your rank.
 
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No, I don't like the idea of increasing difficulty with ranks.

I'm 46% towards Elite in combat, but recently I decided to do some cargo hauls in a Hauler.
I accepted a low rank mission with non-existant payment that involved fetching a ware from nearby system.
A elite Fer-der-lance spawned behind my ass and kept interdicting me. He was persistent, logging off didn't do anything, high waking didn't do anything. They even offered me 5000cr if I kill that guy with my hauler, WOW.
I tried taking a small Viper and killed a Type 6 for fun, good old undermining times, eh?
No, the game spawns an elite Python that keeps constantly interdicting me. I can run away yeah, but I cannot do anything until he or I die because he's constantly disturbing my activities.

I don't like the idea of difficulty scaling by rank or player ship. You have no control over ranks, you get them over time. And after some time more powerful foes will spawn regardless of your mood/activity/ship, and thus you will be locked out from using cheaper ships, because the game expects you to always fly a heavily armored Anaconda.

But I want to buzz around in an Adder sometimes. Or do casual courier jobs in a Hauler.

The best idea is LOW/HIGH security systems. Low for casual experience, high for git gud.

That's funny I haven't really had this experience. I'm the same as you.. about 50% deadly. When I fly my Corvette, it's an Elite Conda/FDL every time, when I'm flying a hauler, I often find it's an Elite eagle/adder.. I'm pretty sure that what you're flying does matter to what gets spawned..
 
That doesn't make any sense. Rails, heat sinks, military armor, hull reinforcements? That's a combat build, not a casual fetch-a-ware build.

And nope, heat sinks and silent running don't help, I've done lots of tests on this when 2.1 dropped. Silent running does make you almost immune against scanning, but when the enemy is already after you (like mission spawned FDL of mine), it doesn't have any impact on anything.
 
The "Git Gud" crowd claim they have no issues and some say they actually want combat to be even harder. So how do we reconcile this disparity? The skill level of each player reading this will be at a different point on the above scale. A selector for easy, medium or hard AI is problematic and can probably be misused. There should only be one level for all, but obviously if this were done, the Git Gud perfect twitch combat pilots would moan it was too easy and the debate would go on and on.

Back in the original games you would generally select the level of risk by where you went, or what sort of missions you took.. With ED Frontier seem to be on some sort of happy management tip which whilst well intended comes at a cost of the entire integrity of the game. As you say this is the only company I know of who does these sort of things.

No one needs perfect twitch skills to be competent at combat but FD have got things very badly wrong. I'm constantly interdicted by bots who say the same old drivel and far from being a challenge (Always ELITES [zZzZz])or there being any context its become little more than a nuisance. The NPCs ironically have no character which is why I refer to them as bots. There is zero context as well and this is now one of the weakest and most irritating parts of the game: much like before when we'd have to go into a gazillion uss to find mission targets etc..

The game should really reward skill, not punish it. As much as I like ED the predictable and contrived interdiction cycle needs a serious rethink. Then again, the game would have benefited from a more EvE like approach to security and gameplay.

I think Frontier can do way better than this..
 
Then again, the game would have benefited from a more EvE like approach to security and gameplay.

I think Frontier can do way better than this..

Actually, they can just look at how they did it in previous games. And notice they've already have all the variables in place...
 
I noticed something today, running about the bubble in my unarmed (and non modded at the time) exploration asp (carrying cargo), I was only getting interdicted by small ships (dbx/asp scouts etc) equipped with standard non modded weapons. Interdictions were happening about 1 in every 10 jumps.

When I switched to my corvette (modded with thermal weapons and carrying the exact same cargo), the interdiction rate was about the same but I was getting interdicted by Anacondas and FDLs with modded weapons. In fact I experienced the first effective heat attack by an NPC, I was running away as I didn't have time to kill him, but he got my temp up to 85%. The temp seemed to stop there but if I had been firing/boosting or using an SCB I would have cooked!

I suspect NPC ships are set up to match your ship/load out and any mods you're using as well as taking into account your rank.

Yes, however some suspect that trading rank might be added into the equation and not just combat rank. If combat was like the start of 2.1 when the game first started that would have been fine. However there was a whole year of freebie bulk trading where you didn't even need to bother with shields let alone anything else.
 
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