Alien Signal as Spherical Coordinates

[mls]

iirc, it's 3 digits per hand, and 4 hands per Thargoid. It's been hinted by dev's that the numbers are base 6 (senary). So if the numbers are a binary representation on base 6 then each finger would represent a 1 or a 0 depending on whether it was extended. So each three digit hand could count to 5:

000=0
001=1
010=2
011=3
100=4
101=5

however in order to count to 6 and above in senary base, you'd need another binary digit, or two Thargoid hands.

001 000 = 6
001 001 = 7
001 010 = 8
001 011 = 9
001 100 = 10

This could explain why none of the individual binary numbers in the signal are higher than 5. Each of the 4 numbers could represent a single 3 digit Thargoid hand. 4 hands, 4 numbers.

These use could be combined to create a four "digit" senary base number (or 2 two "digit" senary base numbers):

with the biggest number possible being 5555 = 5*6^3 + 5*6^2 + 5*6^1 + 5*6^0 =1080+180+30+5= 1295

so with 4 hands thargoids could count from {0,1,2,3,...1295}

and with 2 hands thargoids could count from {0,1,2,3,...35}

a 3 digit hand can count to 7, but no one counts in binary with their hands since the sum of extended digits on a hand gives the number. therefore a 3 digit hand can count to 3, just like our hands can count to 5

 

[who?]

iirc, it's 3 digits per hand, and 4 hands per Thargoid. It's been hinted by dev's that the numbers are base 6 (senary). So if the numbers are a binary representation on base 6 then each finger would represent a 1 or a 0 depending on whether it was extended. So each three digit hand could count to 5:

000=0
001=1
010=2
011=3
100=4
101=5

however in order to count to 6 and above in senary base, you'd need another binary digit, or two Thargoid hands.

001 000 = 6
001 001 = 7
001 010 = 8
001 011 = 9
001 100 = 10

This could explain why none of the individual binary numbers in the signal are higher than 5. Each of the 4 numbers could represent a single 3 digit Thargoid hand. 4 hands, 4 numbers.

These use could be combined to create a four "digit" senary base number (or 2 two "digit" senary base numbers):

with the biggest number possible being 5555 = 5*6^3 + 5*6^2 + 5*6^1 + 5*6^0 =1080+180+30+5= 1295

so with 4 hands thargoids could count from {0,1,2,3,...1295}

and with 2 hands thargoids could count from {0,1,2,3,...35}

I was working from this, but I've no idea how authoritative it is.

The upper limbs are dedicated manipulatory limbs. These are jointed at the elbows and wrists. The elbow is jointed to the rear, similar to human arms. The hands end in four clawed digits, one of which is an opposable thumb. These digits are more flexible and agile than the ones on the middle limbs.

If there are any parallels between their civilisation and ours, I'd expect their numeric system to be based on the number of digits on their 'hands' (manipulatory limbs), for the same reason our numeric system is base 10 and not base 20. But if the devs say they use base 6 then... stupid Thargoids, not using their thumbs for counting. Who knows how much that's set back their civilisation?

 

[Ziljan]

a 3 digit hand can count to 7, but no one counts in binary with their hands since the sum of extended digits on a hand gives the number. therefore a 3 digit hand can count to 3, just like our hands can count to 5

Using digits to count in binary is far more efficient than simple child-like addition of fingers. The reason humans don't count to 31 on one hand is because we simply aren't that smart as a species. Thargoids may not be quite so immune to good ideas. Especially if binary or mathematics is more natural to their way of being, or if they are essentially more intelligent than humans. All the technological evidence points to the later.

I was working from this, but I've no idea how authoritative it is.

Yes there may be some conflict then because I was basing it off of the first reference in Alioth.net which apparently conflicts with the 2nd reference in the same blurb!!!:

http://wiki.alioth.net/index.php/Thargoids

Spoiler

Appearance

The common Thargoid warrior is a dark chitin-covered insect measuring just over 7 feet / 2 metres in height. They have six limbs, two of which are dedicated walking limbs (legs).The remaining four limbs have jointed hands each possessing three digits, one of which is an opposable thumb.
The head is a triangular ovoid in shape, with prominent faceted eyes mounted to the front. In general, the overall impression is similar to that of a praying mantis. There are two short antennae that protrude from the top of the head. The mouth is on the underside of the front point of the triangular head, and is relatively small. It is surrounded to two strong mandibles. The neck is very short but thick and sturdy, and can rotate 60 degrees.
The body of a Thargoid is segmented into two distinct sections. The upper segment is approximately egg-shaped with a slight distension at the upper end just below the junction to the neck and head; this is where the upper limbs join the body. The lower segment is a tapered oval that arcs slightly towards the rear and forms a rounded point. The junction of these two segments is a heavily muscled narrow waist which the Thargoid can twist to approximately 100 degrees.
The lower four limbs are attached to the lower body segment. The lowest pair, or the traditional legs, are attached just above the point where the segment begins to bend rearwards. These legs have knee joints and ankle joint, and are terminated with clawed appendages. The ankles allow the Thargoid to use the lowest part of the limb as feet, providing stability and agility when standing erect. These legs are also double jointed at the knees. The middle pair of limbs are primarily used as manipulating limbs, but are also seen as propelling limbs when a Thargoid is running. These limbs are jointed at elbow and wrist, and end in clawed hands. There are four digits, including an opposable thumb, and these are clawed. The claws are short and horny. These legs are usually held folded against the front of the body.
The upper limbs are dedicated manipulatory limbs. These are jointed at the elbows and wrists. The elbow is jointed to the rear, similar to human arms. The hands end in four clawed digits, one of which is an opposable thumb. These digits are more flexible and agile than the ones on the middle limbs.
Thargoids can walk erect on the hind legs, but have been seen to drop to four legs when running, using the middle limbs in addition to the rear legs.
Not much is known about the internal workings of Thargoid anatomy. Dissection of specimens have revealed the presence of several organs analogous to humans, as well as some that are common in insectoid races. Oresrian medical personnel have verified the presence of respiratory and circulatory organs as well as the digestive organs and system. They have also identified several glands such as excretory, pheromonal and communication glands (most insectoid communication is a hybrid of aural and pheromone methods). The fabled 'fear glands' thought to be removed from Thargoid warriors are thought to be located in the upper thorax, where scar tissue has been found. No notable reproductive organs have been found in specimens, leading scientists to theorise that there must be a separate phenotype of Thargoid that is responsible for the reproductive act.

So which is it? 3 or 4 digits? We'd need a dev or Drew Wagar to step in say for sure.

 

[Jackie Silver]

The reason humans don't count to 31 on one hand is because we simply aren't that smart as a species.

Or more simply, our fingers get really stressed trying to hold them in binary counting positions!

 

[who?]

Yes there may be some conflict then because I was basing it off of the first reference in Alioth.net which apparently conflicts with the 2nd reference in the same blurb!!!:

http://wiki.alioth.net/index.php/Thargoids

So which is it? 3 or 4 digits? We'd need a dev or Drew Wagar to step in say for sure.

The mystery deepens...

I do agree with your original point (back up <-- that way some distance). If these are numbers, we pretty much have to assume they're binary given that we can only see two digits and have no way of inferring or verifying any other base. And if they're binary, they're very unlikely to be any kind of coordinate given the lack of precision. So I'd suggest if they're numbers, they're more likely to be for sequencing.

 

[popuptoaster]

Counting on fingers can get even more complicated if you use the knuckles, with two joints each finger can have three obvious positions plus the main knuckle joint to the hand giving you up/down and as many in between as is practical to recognise.

Maybe my comment wasn't as smart as i thought it was.

 

[Ziljan]

The mystery deepens...

I do agree with your original point (back up <-- that way some distance). If these are numbers, we pretty much have to assume they're binary given that we can only see two digits and have no way of inferring or verifying any other base. And if they're binary, they're very unlikely to be any kind of coordinate given the lack of precision. So I'd suggest if they're numbers, they're more likely to be for sequencing.

I think that they can still be coordinates. It's just unlikely that they are spherical coordinates. Spherical coordinates come in 3 dimensions (r, θ, φ). However, there are 4 visible numbers so far, and that lends itself more to a 2 dimensional coordinate system like a plane or the surface of a globe, with possible parings of the 4 binary numbers into 2 sets in some other base (maybe base 10, maybe base 6, who knows?).

Or it could just be a simple progressive "quadrant" designation 1,2,3,4. Quadrants of what though? Number space? For all we know, the binary is the human decoding and the lines on the globe are the representations of those numbers in a base 4 Thargoid counting system? The ambiguous nature of the numbers could have been used to confuse any would be decoders.

 

[mls]

Using digits to count in binary is far more efficient than simple child-like addition of fingers. The reason humans don't count to 31 on one hand is because we simply aren't that smart as a species. Thargoids may not be quite so immune to good ideas. Especially if binary or mathematics is more natural to their way of being, or if they are essentially more intelligent than humans. All the technological evidence points to the later.

actually we dont count to 31 with one hand because it is not practical. there are at least 3 different ways to dat to show the number 3 that all based on their own cultures. showing numbers with your hand has to have the same result when viewed from any angle. this means a shown number with your finger will be an absolute value.

Or more simply, our fingers get really stressed trying to hold them in binary counting positions!

very much this

I think that they can still be coordinates. It's just unlikely that they are spherical coordinates. Spherical coordinates come in 3 dimensions (r, θ, φ). However, there are 4 visible numbers so far, and that lends itself more to a 2 dimensional coordinate system ...

http://i.imgur.com/GSOv8xI.png

a 3d coordinate can have 4 numbers when you accoubt for the vector (x y z) and the lengt (l)


also binary is usually no human encoding but the easiest numberformat available and base to all logic no matter where or by whom it was created. therefore it is very likely that a race of thargoidian intelligence uses the same system to do its thingand communicate

 

[Ziljan]

actually we dont count to 31 with one hand because it is not practical.

a 3d coordinate can have 4 numbers when you accoubt for the vector (x y z) and the lengt (l)


also binary is usually no human encoding but the easiest numberformat available and base to all logic no matter where or by whom it was created. therefore it is very likely that a race of thargoidian intelligence uses the same system to do its thingand communicate

"Practical" is a relative term. We should avoid worrying about what is practical or facile when considering what alien minds might invent. We have no idea what they might think is "obvious". Even humans shouldn't assume this about each other, let alone species with intelligence and power beyond our understanding. Yes, yes it's a alien puzzle crafted by humans for humans, but lets put that aside and assume that the solution is "alien" since it's likely non-trivial, given that it has yet to be solved!

As for the "length of a 3D coordinate": A coordinate is a point in space, it has no length. If you want to describe a line in 3D space, that would require 2nd set of 3 coordinates to describe the line in any non-arbitrary sense.

For example the vector:
v = (x1-x2, y1-y2, z1-z2)

However, you could describe the coordinates of a sphere with 4 numbers. The center utilizing the first 3 numbers and the 4th being the radius. This is an arbitrary solution, and four numbers given appear to be a simple 1,2,3,4. To me this doesn't seem like coordinates, but more of a counting system. But who knows at this point?

I agree that the binary is likely a voltage based machine code, what human programmer/puzzlemaster could resist using it? Though even humans have dabbled in non-binary computing systems.

 

[Chesso]

ERm it may have already been said but the Babylonians did count to I think it was about thirty on both hands and had a base 30 number system accordingly ( I will have to look that up lol ) There were some folk around there still counting like that just cos when you are used to it it can work better ( modern day Iraq ) I have tried to use it but for me it seems slow. Guess you have to use it from childhood to work it fast.

 

[mls]

"Practical" is a relative term. We should avoid worrying about what is practical or facile when considering what alien minds might invent. We have no idea what they might think is "obvious". Even humans shouldn't assume this about each other, let alone species with intelligence and power beyond our understanding. Yes, yes it's a alien puzzle crafted by humans for humans, but lets put that aside and assume that the solution is "alien" since it's likely non-trivial, given that it has yet to be solved!

As for the "length of a 3D coordinate": A coordinate is a point in space, it has no length. If you want to describe a line in 3D space, that would require 2nd set of 3 coordinates to describe the line in any non-arbitrary sense.

For example the vector:
v = (x1-x2, y1-y2, z1-z2)

However, you could describe the coordinates of a sphere with 4 numbers. The center utilizing the first 3 numbers and the 4th being the radius. This is an arbitrary solution, and four numbers given appear to be a simple 1,2,3,4. To me this doesn't seem like coordinates, but more of a counting system. But who knows at this point?

I agree that the binary is likely a voltage based machine code, what human programmer/puzzlemaster could resist using it? Though even humans have dabbled in non-binary computing systems.

A coordinate can have a length which is just a different system of describing a point within space: p = (x,y,z,l). it's the direction from a point of origin with a length. A point can also be described by 3 numbers when giving 2 angles and a length. Every vector is also just the coordinate of the end point relative to the starting point of the vector.
Just saying there are so many ways to describe any kind of mathematical figure or element that it's not just this or that.

And yes, humans have fumbled around with non binary systems, but binary is not limited to computers and voltage based machine code. Binary is the base for any kind of logic in every culture (either - or, true - false, you - name it) on this planet to this day and probably for a long time coming too. While there may be other systems as well with more than 2 given states, a binary system with only 2 opposing states is the most simple to use, teach and learn and is therefore the most univeral of all languages.
no matter how big someones brain is or how far advanced a race may be, when it boils down to attempting communication with someone you know nothing about then you eventually get back to the simplest way there is. And i'm not talking about the occasional conversation on your vacation in a place where you don't speak the language. I'm talking about trying to comunicate with someone where you don't know if it's got arms and legs, eyes, ears. if it's solid or liquid or maybe a gassy life form, if it can speak or use some freaky brainwave telepathy to communicate.
There is just no other system that can possibly have a better chance to success than binary ;-)