It would be my guess that there are distinct "paths" as at the start there were single cell organisms...which maybe still are around today....but aren't so smart. I'm sure you see where this is going....well just note humans are easily the most intelligent...and arguably one of the more recent distinct species, if not the most.

Assumed in the idea dinosaurs may have evolved to be smart because they were around for "a long time" is evolution "evolves" towards intelligent beings. Which is nonsense.

Humans haven't gotten more (well not by much) intelligent since our caveman days. It's communication that allows knowledge and eventually "advanced life forms" doing things like "...shared goals, maybe writing, limited engineering".

For me Earth history demonstrates that intellegent life is serendipitous even on an "Earth like" planet. Our level of communication & dexterity is unequivocally unmatched. I'd suspect our spatial intelligence is also God-like superior to other animals on Earth.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theory_of_multiple_intelligences It's a great read if for anyone interested in trying to get a better understanding of "intelligence"

The Theory of Multiple Intelligences made for good reading. Not sure how much I agree with it, though. I need to read more about it and think on it.

I don't think the emergence of intelligence is necessarily serendipitous. Evolution favors traits based on whether the carriers of those traits survive or even thrive. At first, our level of intelligence wasn't needed- which, life was just getting started so life hadn't had time to develop such a level of intelligence. But starting out, all an organism had to do was survive long enough to share genes or asexually reproduce, both ensuring the continued existence of the genetic information. Over the billions of years, though, there have been a multitude of extinction events that pushed life to its limits. Of course, these extinction events didn't "reset" evolution as some would believe. The best genes survived and carried on. But in order for life to ultimately survive, at some point it has to be able to realize that it is threatened by things not readily perceivable, like asteroids, comets, rogue stars and planets, distant gamma ray bursts, death of the sun, etc. The only thing genes care about is surviving, and perhaps past extinction events have pushed our genes into building more complex "machines" with more complex brains for higher thought, problem solving, etc.

It's kind of like a debate a friend and I have had- he argued that indeed sexual fitness was the most important aspect of survival. He provided Genghis Khan as an example- while he wasn't one of the smartest humans to ever live, his rapacious lifestyle allowed him to become the ancestor of 10% of the Asian population. Then you have people like Einstien, Hawking, and such, whose contribution to the overall human genetic pool will never even come close to that of Khan. My argument, however, is that if at least some people don't think, "Hey, this planet isn't going to last forever- lets get off this rock!", then all those descendants of Genghis Khan won't matter because they'll all die, along with their genetic information.

Higher intelligence to me seems to be an inevitability in the evolution of life if it can endure long enough, because creatures like microbes, insects, and fish simply aren't up to the task of the ultimate goal of survival. The genes must build a "machine" capable of leaving the home planet or the whole purpose of life will be for absolutely nothing.


Can you explain your 1st paragraph - I don't understand your point. Are you saying that humans are the most intelligent because they are the most recent? Single celled organisms aren't intelligent? That there are pre-defined paths, or that there aren't?

I don't think I have an unstated premise in the 79m years idea, but I am mixing two separate ideas. My assumptions are:-

-there were social groups of dinosaurs (by this I mean pack hunters) I don't have references but I don't think this is controversial. If it is Google fu can help.
-early hominids were also pack hunters.
-this assumes rudimentary communication in both groups
-evolutionary pressures led one group - early hominids - to us.
-question - were these pressures unique in that they never affected the pack hunting dinosaurs in over 79 million years?
so really it's comparing two similar groups with assumed similar pressures and asking why the result was different.

I agree that the root of the type of intelligence assumes communication, sorry that wasn't clear.

So my points are:-

1. If Dinosaurs DID NOT develop intelligence defined as above why not? Again assuming the evolutionary pressures were similar & if they weren't why?

2. If dinosaurs DID NOT develop intelligence in 79m years because of something unique I haven't thought of, but we did in 2 million years, does that then mean that intelligent life is very difficult and/or unique?

3. How do we know that dinosaurs DIDN'T if there is no evidence, and very small chance of finding any evidence due to the 100m year difference between then & now. Burden of proof is on me for this ofc, just a nice brain fart.

Perhaps there were dinosaurs with some level of higher intelligence, but among all the fossils ever found we've never seen a dinosaur with a tool, clothing, or art. It isn't impossible that some species of dinosaur developed higher intelligence, but perhaps their bodies weren't equipped to build the tools necessary to conquer their perceived challenges. Look at dolphins- easily one of the most, if not the most, intelligent species alive today. They can communicate, work in groups, and hell they can even be trained to help the military find underwater mines. But their biggest problem is that they have no hands... well, that and they live mostly in the water (and it can be argued that fire is necessary for civilization).

But if dinosaurs didn't evolve intelligence, perhaps it was because extinction events hadn't pressured natural selection into that direction yet.

Also, I apologize if I make sound as though evolution or natural selection "thinks" or is necessarily some form of intelligence itself. It's just easier for me to put it in such terms.

But life adapts to the challenges it encounters. Maybe 9(?) extinction events somehow pushed the evolution of life into our general direction because our genes can't continue to exist if we can't figure out a way to leave the Earth. And, several billions or trillions of years from now, our descendants will have to find some way to save the universe from destroying itself, or find or create a new universe, otherwise what's the point of survival and life at all?
 
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2. If dinosaurs DID NOT develop intelligence in 79m years because of something unique I haven't thought of, but we did in 2 million years, does that then mean that intelligent life is very difficult and/or unique?

Just to put things into perspective:

- Dinosauriformes have had about 180 million years at their disposal to produce intelligent species (earliest fossils are dated to be 245m years old, and as we know they suffered catastrophy 66m years ago in Cretaceous–Paleogene mass extinction event);
- Mammaliaformes we belong to appeared 225 million years ago;
- Genus Homo appeared just 2 million years ago;
- Species Homo Sapiens is barely 200.000 years old;

When you look at those numbers, it becomes clear that us mammals have had considerably more time (about 45m years) than dinosaurs to "invent" undoubtedly intelligent species in form of Homo Sapiens. 45 million years is no joke, especially when you compare that to age of genus Homo or our species. In other words, dinosaurs did not become intelligent in 180m years, but mammals did not either - they needed almost 225m years to achieve this.
 
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Don't forget that birds are evolved from dinosaurs and some of them use tools (stones and rocks) for breaking eggs.

Mammals are the only clade with the evolved neocortex though I think - and given how much larger it is in humans compared to other mammals, it's a pretty good indicator of high-level intelligence for me.
 
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Can you explain your 1st paragraph - I don't understand your point. Are you saying that humans are the most intelligent because they are the most recent? Single celled organisms aren't intelligent? That there are pre-defined paths, or that there aren't?

No. I said a single cell organism is still around today. It is not smart it never will be, same with an alligator, a squirrel, a fish, on and on. My point is (which I explicitly said) is that time is not a "cause" for intelligent life.

Where ever primates branched off from what ever other "sub-species" that was the start towards us...Advanced life forms. With that said, there is a large "gap" between us and the next smartest primate.
 
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The Theory of Multiple Intelligences made for good reading. Not sure how much I agree with it, though. I need to read more about it and think on it.

I don't think the emergence of intelligence is necessarily serendipitous. Evolution favors traits based on whether the carriers of those traits survive or even thrive. At first, our level of intelligence wasn't needed- which, life was just getting started so life hadn't had time to develop such a level of intelligence. But starting out, all an organism had to do was survive long enough to share genes or asexually reproduce, both ensuring the continued existence of the genetic information. Over the billions of years, though, there have been a multitude of extinction events that pushed life to its limits. Of course, these extinction events didn't "reset" evolution as some would believe. The best genes survived and carried on. But in order for life to ultimately survive, at some point it has to be able to realize that it is threatened by things not readily perceivable, like asteroids, comets, rogue stars and planets, distant gamma ray bursts, death of the sun, etc. The only thing genes care about is surviving, and perhaps past extinction events have pushed our genes into building more complex "machines" with more complex brains for higher thought, problem solving, etc.

I agree that genes ultimately "want" to survive. There are many many ways to meet that end. Intelligence at our level is "end game" for genetics on Earth. Imagine a virus somehow became "intelligent", it would easily dominate.

All genetic changes that end up being a competitive advantage are serendipitous by definition. Note a genetic mutation does NOT have to be advantageous to be passed on. It must only not be detrimental...for example humans have teeth problems with our back set of molars, before as recent as a few centuries that could be a life threatening problem. It happens long enough after sexual maturity it does not get "bred out".

With respect to catastophic events, it need not be even some fast acting thing like an astroid. For example ice ages or volcano eruptions that dramatically change the weather. I'd subscribe to the idea that "humans" evolved and developed communication while "holed up" for centuries of an ice age.

Personally I find it a bit of a stretch that genetics has awareness of any sort with respect to "Things from space are a threat...I need to get smart!".

It's kind of like a debate a friend and I have had- he argued that indeed sexual fitness was the most important aspect of survival. He provided Genghis Khan as an example- while he wasn't one of the smartest humans to ever live, his rapacious lifestyle allowed him to become the ancestor of 10% of the Asian population.

Then you have people like Einstien, Hawking, and such, whose contribution to the overall human genetic pool will never even come close to that of Khan. My argument, however, is that if at least some people don't think, "Hey, this planet isn't going to last forever- lets get off this rock!", then all those descendants of Genghis Khan won't matter because they'll all die, along with their genetic information.


Khan and Einstein are on the same "team". Note that Einstein was precarious too!! He was around at a time when and pillaging would have ....been bad for him. Perhaps in that case, communication was detrimental to the progression of human intelligence ...but since we had no competitors there are no competitive pressures (READ: dieing before being able to pass on your genes) it was not detrimental to the survival of human genetics.

It'll get very very subjective if we examine the tendencies within a genetically distinct species; as you've already may have noticed. That said it strengthens my argument intelligence (advanced lifeforms) is not a "goal" of evolution. I do think advanced life / intelligence is an end game of evolution though. Clearly no Earth species is going to surpass and take over humans.


Also note if evolution of intelligence is not serendipitous, that means it requires competition. Then what is needed for evolution to reach a level of intelligence higher than humans? Does it need to become a "ing match" with another advanced lifeform in order to evolve further? Of course not, these mutations just happen.
 
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Don't forget that birds are evolved from dinosaurs and some of them use tools (stones and rocks) for breaking eggs.

Mammals are the only clade with the evolved neocortex though I think - and given how much larger it is in humans compared to other mammals, it's a pretty good indicator of high-level intelligence for me.

True, although it should be noted that the evolutionary line leading from dinosaurs to modern birds is the only one left from them. Dinosauria as clade suffered horrible losses and today we can only speculate what could they've achieved if our planet didn't get in the way of that big space rock. Who knows? Maybe nothing. Maybe they would have conquered the whole galaxy by now and became type III civilization :)

Regarding the neocortex: good point. Size and shape of the skull (compared to rest of the body) can serve as an indicator how smart one species is/was/might had been. Of course it's a lot more complicated than that, but skull is a good basis nonetheless. Saurornithoides I've mentioned earlier as very promising dinosaur genus has had indeed exceptionaly large brain for that era, but it wasn't bigger than the one we can find with modern birds. So it definitely needed more time to evolve.

So, until someone digs out fossilized dinosaur skeleton with comparably huge neurocranium, I think it's pretty safe to assume that we are the first intelligent species on Earth.
 
What is interesting is that humans are the only species on Earth that have evolved to our level (the ability to reason and create/innovate, with the ability to learn to culture language).

I wonder what life would be like had another species managed this. Such as primates or birds.

Hate to be that guy, but Humans are the primates that evolved to our level
 
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