Alliance Challenger AX CZ build

[tolm]

Been trying to learn to "cold orbit" ... at the moment I can either stay cold enough to avoid the Interceptor targeting me OR get shots on target but, hey, it's all good learning fun, right? Plus I got to run away in one piece having taken out 3 hearts on a Medusa so, y'know, there's that!

For a bit of a change of pace, I thought I'd try and put together a build that could work work well in an AX CZ swatting Scouts and adding some decent firepower to the occasional Interceptor fight rather than any illusions of heroism. I decided to try a Challenger.

I've only tried it in a couple of Threat 4 USS sites so far so it needs a proper run out but the theory is:

• I could put a C3 Gimballed EAX MC (15.5 DPS) on there but that uses up a slot for a funky Guardian weapon! So, instead, I have a C2 and two C1 standard MCs overcharged to G5 (well, they will be ...) which should offset the -70% damage nerf for use against Scouts. Total DPS for those is 20.5 + 2x 11.4 which is 43.3. 30% of that is 12.99 which isn't that far away from the C3 EAX MC - albeit with slower shot speed and maybe some other different stats.

• 2x C2 Modified Guardian Plasma Chargers: perfectly capable of hitting Scouts and can deliver some very decent shield/hull damage to Interceptors. The two additional "underslung" C2 HPs on the Challenger (vs the Chieftain) are nicely spaced for these.

• 1x C2 and 1x C1 Modified Guardian Shard Cannon Guardian Gauss Cannon: yeh ... two C2s would be nice but they'd be further apart - the "above cockpit" C1 and C3 HP on the Chally are almost the same hardpoint so should be excellent for sniping Hearts.

• Enough Power to chop and change and try different things, switch it to an Interceptor focused build with a couple of C1 TV Beams, etc as needed!

Build on Coriolis with the usual caveats ... https://s.orbis.zone/libk

That left my 2x C3 and 2x C2 Gimballed EAX MCs which I finally got around to putting on a Krait Phantom. Meta-be-damned, if that doesn't just vaporize Scouts!!!

 

[Starsong]

Something you should be aware of is due to the lower Armour Penetration, a C1 modshard only does about 40% of the damage of a C2 to Interceptors.

 

[DemiserofD]

Something a lot of people don't realize is that ax weapons actually do both of their damage components to anything they can take that damage, which is Scouts and Interceptor Shields. Ax multi cannons, for example, only display the roughly 35% of their damage that they do to human ships on their item card. They do 33% of that damage to scouts, and then the full hidden 65%, as well.

They really do need to improve how this information is conveyed, now that ax combat is such a main component of the game. Against scouts, you not only aren't doing the roughly 15 damage it says you're doing, you are actually doing more like 35 damage per second.

They really should just add an extra column for ax damage.

Anyway, nice build, have fun!

 

[tolm]

Something you should be aware of is due to the lower Armour Penetration, a C1 modshard only does about 40% of the damage of a C2 to Interceptors.

I rather suspected something like that would be the case but wasn't sure how much Armour Pen applies against Hearts?

I also just realised that having previously wondered about that I changed the build to use a C2 and C1 GAUSS instead ... I will amend my OP above!!!

 

[tolm]

Something a lot of people don't realize is that ax weapons actually do both of their damage components to anything they can take that damage, which is Scouts and Interceptor Shields. Ax multi cannons, for example, only display the roughly 35% of their damage that they do to human ships on their item card. They do 33% of that damage to scouts, and then the full hidden 65%, as well.

They really do need to improve how this information is conveyed, now that ax combat is such a main component of the game. Against scouts, you not only aren't doing the roughly 15 damage it says you're doing, you are actually doing more like 35 damage per second.

They really should just add an extra column for ax damage.

Anyway, nice build, have fun!

Whoa - hang on ... the damage shown for AX WEAPONS is actually the damage they do against HUMAN opponents? Whose insane idea was that??!!!

Okay, so those cannons are way less efficient than I thought they were, then. Even against Scouts!! I mean, I didn't have any issues swatting a few using them but it sounds like they're actually about 1/3 of the DPS which is not at all what I was after.

TBH ... with the suggestions that the Experimental weapon limit may get adjusted / amended, it may be time I went a Guardian Blueprint hunting again to get myself some C1 Mod Plasmas for a few more options on here ...

 

[Daniel Cloudsifter]

Here is my Challenger build, which built upon the AXI recommended build. Currently I'm using C2 modified shards; originally I was using C2 modified plasmas. I'm split on which I prefer more.

The plasmas are more fun, as I enjoy charging them up to full; they also seem to handle scouts more efficiently than the shards. I have to actively work to overheat the ship (to burn off caustic damage). It takes me longer to kill exerted hearts with the plasmas, but they also allow me to regularly kill a Cyclops shortly after I reduce it to two hearts, something I've not been able to duplicate with the shards. Also, the plasmas have more shots per clip, which reduces the "Come on, Reload!" frustration in fights.

The shards, on the other hand, seem underwhelming on scouts in comparison. The shards can easily exert the hearts on a Cyclops or Basilisk and, more importantly, destroy that heart much faster (usually one or two salvos on a quick pass). This has lead me to kill more interceptors, and kill them faster, than I have with the plasmas. However, three quick blasts of all four and you will be overheating (unless you popped a heat sink first). The heat issues are manageable and it does make it much faster/easier to quickly overheat your ship to burn the caustic goo off. I think the biggest detriment for me is that clip size of 5 vs. the 20 on the plasmas. I'm also not certain why I can make the scouts go pop faster with the plasmas than the shards.

I've only been fighting in AX zones (always around ground bases) for a week now, but I've racked up 6 Basilisk kills and 10 to 15 Cyclops kills. I'm thinking I'm going to ditch the repair limpet controller and the corresponding cargo rack for more hull reinforcements - possibly even move the 1D Guardian MRP up to a 3D and put a corrosion resistant size 1 cargo rack in (I want to start collecting hearts!). It's been a lot of fun!

P.S. I can't do the cold orbit with my current controller setup, but the long range thermal vent beam lasers on my build are good to help with that during the "keep your distance, panic shield is up" phase. Even without cold orbiting, it's still kept me cold, drained their shields, and help me dodge some of their fire.

 

[tolm]

Here is my Challenger build, which built upon the AXI recommended build. Currently I'm using C2 modified shards; originally I was using C2 modified plasmas. I'm split on which I prefer more.

The plasmas are more fun, as I enjoy charging them up to full; they also seem to handle scouts more efficiently than the shards. I have to actively work to overheat the ship (to burn off caustic damage). It takes me longer to kill exerted hearts with the plasmas, but they also allow me to regularly kill a Cyclops shortly after I reduce it to two hearts, something I've not been able to duplicate with the shards. Also, the plasmas have more shots per clip, which reduces the "Come on, Reload!" frustration in fights.

The shards, on the other hand, seem underwhelming on scouts in comparison. The shards can easily exert the hearts on a Cyclops or Basilisk and, more importantly, destroy that heart much faster (usually one or two salvos on a quick pass). This has lead me to kill more interceptors, and kill them faster, than I have with the plasmas. However, three quick blasts of all four and you will be overheating (unless you popped a heat sink first). The heat issues are manageable and it does make it much faster/easier to quickly overheat your ship to burn the caustic goo off. I think the biggest detriment for me is that clip size of 5 vs. the 20 on the plasmas. I'm also not certain why I can make the scouts go pop faster with the plasmas than the shards.

I've only been fighting in AX zones (always around ground bases) for a week now, but I've racked up 6 Basilisk kills and 10 to 15 Cyclops kills. I'm thinking I'm going to ditch the repair limpet controller and the corresponding cargo rack for more hull reinforcements - possibly even move the 1D Guardian MRP up to a 3D and put a corrosion resistant size 1 cargo rack in (I want to start collecting hearts!). It's been a lot of fun!

P.S. I can't do the cold orbit with my current controller setup, but the long range thermal vent beam lasers on my build are good to help with that during the "keep your distance, panic shield is up" phase. Even without cold orbiting, it's still kept me cold, drained their shields, and help me dodge some of their fire.

Yeh, I can't orbit but if I keep cold, thrust down and occasionally roll it seems to make it more difficult for the Interceptor to hit me - even if the swarm still happily kicks my butt!

I agree on your assessment of the weapons: I enjoy Plasma's MUCH more! I also think they are considerably more effective against Interceptor hull than Shards which is why I'm trying to keep some of both on my build. There have been a few Interceptors where I've struggled to do enough damage solo to exert hearts using only Shards - the NPCs in my instance seemed to be doing SQUAT!!!

If the weapon limits get moved enough, I'm thinking 1xC2 Plasma (nose) and 2x C1 Plasmas (above cockpit) probably have enough convergence for shield/hull damage against Interceptors, allowing 2x C2 Shards (underside of ship) for Heart damage and a single C3 Gimballed EAX MC for Scouts. That would be absolutely sweet!

I guess I could try the above without the C1 Plasmas for now ... maybe the EAX MC in combination with the single C2 Plasma would be okay, allowing me slightly more damage against Hearts with the two C2 Shards?

I'm enjoying the Chally flight model - still agile but maybe slightly less twitchy than the Chieftain? Jury's out on the 490m/s vs 530m/s boost, though ... I mean, it's not been a problem but it annoys me on principle!!\

I need to finish G5'ing my armour and then experiment with some Repair Limpets / AFMU usage. I hate the fact that you lose TWO slots for Repair Limpets but the Chally has one more than the Chieftain so that should help.

 

[Daniel Cloudsifter]

Yeh, I can't orbit but if I keep cold, thrust down and occasionally roll it seems to make it more difficult for the Interceptor to hit me - even if the swarm still happily kicks my butt!

I agree on your assessment of the weapons: I enjoy Plasma's MUCH more! I also think they are considerably more effective against Interceptor hull than Shards which is why I'm trying to keep some of both on my build. There have been a few Interceptors where I've struggled to do enough damage solo to exert hearts using only Shards - the NPCs in my instance seemed to be doing SQUAT!!!

If the weapon limits get moved enough, I'm thinking 1xC2 Plasma (nose) and 2x C1 Plasmas (above cockpit) probably have enough convergence for shield/hull damage against Interceptors, allowing 2x C2 Shards (underside of ship) for Heart damage and a single C3 Gimballed EAX MC for Scouts. That would be absolutely sweet!

I guess I could try the above without the C1 Plasmas for now ... maybe the EAX MC in combination with the single C2 Plasma would be okay, allowing me slightly more damage against Hearts with the two C2 Shards?

I'm enjoying the Chally flight model - still agile but maybe slightly less twitchy than the Chieftain? Jury's out on the 490m/s vs 530m/s boost, though ... I mean, it's not been a problem but it annoys me on principle!!\

I need to finish G5'ing my armour and then experiment with some Repair Limpets / AFMU usage. I hate the fact that you lose TWO slots for Repair Limpets but the Chally has one more than the Chieftain so that should help.

Important Caveat: When I originally responded to your original post, I didn't realize you were using the unmodified Guardian weapons. The ones I'm using are the modified ones from Salvation (Mbooni - Prospector's rest) and the difference is night and day. The shot speed on the modified plasmas is 6000 m/s (modified shards are 6600 m/s) which makes them hit scan weapons in most cases. Also the C2 modified shards still generate less heat than a standard C2 Guardian Gauss.

I know the elite AXI people rely on the Guardian Gauss, but I just don't like it (or any rail gun). The fire delay after the trigger pull always leads me to miss. It's a personal issue and I just won't use them.

 

[Kayvan]

I had the same thread in the Ships forum and meanwhile I have basically completed one experimental setup, but tried it only very briefly due to time constraints.

My line of thinking was to not use it as a cold orbiter as such, but a shielded build, to make better use of the the 2 size 6 optional slots. So I'd use a 6C Bi-Weave and a size 6 rack full of limpets. I'd use limpets to repair the modules and remove any caustic damage rather than burning it off.
Hardpoints: one class 3 gimballed MC and three class 2 Gauss; rest TV lasers.

It seemed to make sense in theory; however a first brief test revealed two problems:
1, power constraints; the shields need pips in Sys, the PP and PD can barely manage the power requirements.
2, the heap is considerably less agile than the Chief; I kinda felt like a sitting duck.

So at that point, it probably just makes more sense to use a Crate Mk2 for that kind of strategy. Which I guess is exactly what most Shielded AX pilots do. Not sure how to reword the Chally into a shieldless build, though.

 

[tolm]

I had the same thread in the Ships forum and meanwhile I have basically completed one experimental setup, but tried it only very briefly due to time constraints.

My line of thinking was to not use it as a cold orbiter as such, but a shielded build, to make better use of the the 2 size 6 optional slots. So I'd use a 6C Bi-Weave and a size 6 rack full of limpets. I'd use limpets to repair the modules and remove any caustic damage rather than burning it off.
Hardpoints: one class 3 gimballed MC and three class 2 Gauss; rest TV lasers.

It seemed to make sense in theory; however a first brief test revealed two problems:
1, power constraints; the shields need pips in Sys, the PP and PD can barely manage the power requirements.
2, the heap is considerably less agile than the Chief; I kinda felt like a sitting duck.

So at that point, it probably just makes more sense to use a Crate Mk2 for that kind of strategy. Which I guess is exactly what most Shielded AX pilots do. Not sure how to reword the Chally into a shieldless build, though.

Yeh, I have a Krait MkII kicking around too. It’s currently serving as an evac ship but could come back into play later.

 

[tolm]

Important Caveat: When I originally responded to your original post, I didn't realize you were using the unmodified Guardian weapons. The ones I'm using are the modified ones from Salvation (Mbooni - Prospector's rest) and the difference is night and day. The shot speed on the modified plasmas is 6000 m/s (modified shards are 6600 m/s) which makes them hit scan weapons in most cases. Also the C2 modified shards still generate less heat than a standard C2 Guardian Gauss.

I know the elite AXI people rely on the Guardian Gauss, but I just don't like it (or any rail gun). The fire delay after the trigger pull always leads me to miss. It's a personal issue and I just won't use them.

Ignore Coriolis … I’m using Mod Plasma Chargers and was using Mod Shards but I’ve switched those to (standard) Gauss for better Heart damage.

 

[tolm]

I had the same thread in the Ships forum and meanwhile I have basically completed one experimental setup, but tried it only very briefly due to time constraints.

My line of thinking was to not use it as a cold orbiter as such, but a shielded build, to make better use of the the 2 size 6 optional slots. So I'd use a 6C Bi-Weave and a size 6 rack full of limpets. I'd use limpets to repair the modules and remove any caustic damage rather than burning it off.
Hardpoints: one class 3 gimballed MC and three class 2 Gauss; rest TV lasers.

It seemed to make sense in theory; however a first brief test revealed two problems:
1, power constraints; the shields need pips in Sys, the PP and PD can barely manage the power requirements.
2, the heap is considerably less agile than the Chief; I kinda felt like a sitting duck.

So at that point, it probably just makes more sense to use a Crate Mk2 for that kind of strategy. Which I guess is exactly what most Shielded AX pilots do. Not sure how to reword the Chally into a shieldless build, though.

I keep going back/forth on Shield vs Shieldless …

• A small shield is nice to adsorb damage from the Scouts in an AX CZ, leaving more hull intact when the Interceptors turn up
• But it requires power and I notice the Chally needs pips to engines that I could get away without on the Chief
• And if you get hit by Caustic, the quickest fix is to hit Silent Running and just keep firing but that takes your Shield down …
• And I’ve not been able to fire heatsinks on a couple of occasions ‘cause my big ol’ BiWeave has sucked up all the pips trying to recharge …

So, with the Chally’s extra slots, I’m thinking about dropping the shield for a cargo rack and then putting in a C3 Repair Limpet Controller and C2 AFMU as per one of the other builds shared earlier by @Daniel Cloudsifter. I’d probably still have circa 4000 base hull but could burn off caustic super quick without worrying about shields and then repair hull / modules during any lulls in the fighting.

It’s also possible that would drop power usage enough to go back to a G3 Armoured PP …

 

[Daniel Cloudsifter]

I keep going back/forth on Shield vs Shieldless …

• A small shield is nice to adsorb damage from the Scouts in an AX CZ, leaving more hull intact when the Interceptors turn up
• But it requires power and I notice the Chally needs pips to engines that I could get away without on the Chief
• And if you get hit by Caustic, the quickest fix is to hit Silent Running and just keep firing but that takes your Shield down …
• And I’ve not been able to fire heatsinks on a couple of occasions ‘cause my big ol’ BiWeave has sucked up all the pips trying to recharge …

So, with the Chally’s extra slots, I’m thinking about dropping the shield for a cargo rack and then putting in a C3 Repair Limpet Controller and C2 AFMU as per one of the other builds shared earlier by @Daniel Cloudsifter. I’d probably still have circa 4000 base hull but could burn off caustic super quick without worrying about shields and then repair hull / modules during any lulls in the fighting.

It’s also possible that would drop power usage enough to go back to a G3 Armoured PP …

FYI, I was afraid to go shieldless as well. I can tell you, however, that with 3 MRP and lots of HRP and Military Armour (both preferably engineered G5 Heavy Duty with Deep Plating) you'll be fine. So far, my hull HP has been more of an issue than modules getting damaged/taken offline. Even then, it's not been that big of a problem (and will probably get better when I make the changes I mentioned in a previous post).

Running shieldless means you can divert all that SYS power to ENG and WEP with no worries. You only need to dump power back into SYS occasionally (Heatsinks do use some of the store energy), and only need to put a lot in if you fire off the Shutdown Field Neutraliser - so you can keep it active for a long time if you're bad at the timing like I am (so I fire early). More importantly, no shields means you have no downside to switching to Silent Running to either build up heat - to burn of caustic residue - or just to hide from them. I've done more Silent Running in the last week than I have in all the time since I started playing back in December of 2015. It's fun!

If you're worried about your canopy breaking, just listen for the first little cracking noises and veer off. Fire off your AFMU to repair the canopy and re-engage. The canopy doesn't need to be "turned on" so this is a pure "repair and forget" strategy. Also, all those MRPs seem to really help beef up the canopy - or at least, that's how it feels to me.

Also, fun tip I learned recently, the AFMU repairs MRP damage 10 times faster/more efficiently than anything else. So having the MRPs soak the incoming module damage and then fixing them is both effective and efficient.

I do still have shielded AX Krait MKII that I haven't converted to shieldless yet; it also hasn't seen combat yet. It's built to support multi-crew (fighters) for my friends; I can't seem to beef up it's hull enough with a fighter bay installed for me to feel comfortable going shieldless yet. I need to testing with this build soon.

 

[tolm]

FYI, I was afraid to go shieldless as well. I can tell you, however, that with 3 MRP and lots of HRP and Military Armour (both preferably engineered G5 Heavy Duty with Deep Plating) you'll be fine. So far, my hull HP has been more of an issue than modules getting damaged/taken offline. Even then, it's not been that big of a problem (and will probably get better when I make the changes I mentioned in a previous post).

Running shieldless means you can divert all that SYS power to ENG and WEP with no worries. You only need to dump power back into SYS occasionally (Heatsinks do use some of the store energy), and only need to put a lot in if you fire off the Shutdown Field Neutraliser - so you can keep it active for a long time if you're bad at the timing like I am (so I fire early). More importantly, no shields means you have no downside to switching to Silent Running to either build up heat - to burn of caustic residue - or just to hide from them. I've done more Silent Running in the last week than I have in all the time since I started playing back in December of 2015. It's fun!

If you're worried about your canopy breaking, just listen for the first little cracking noises and veer off. Fire off your AFMU to repair the canopy and re-engage. The canopy doesn't need to be "turned on" so this is a pure "repair and forget" strategy. Also, all those MRPs seem to really help beef up the canopy - or at least, that's how it feels to me.

Also, fun tip I learned recently, the AFMU repairs MRP damage 10 times faster/more efficiently than anything else. So having the MRPs soak the incoming module damage and then fixing them is both effective and efficient.

I do still have shielded AX Krait MKII that I haven't converted to shieldless yet; it also hasn't seen combat yet. It's built to support multi-crew (fighters) for my friends; I can't seem to beef up it's hull enough with a fighter bay installed for me to feel comfortable going shieldless yet. I need to testing with this build soon.

Yeh, I ran my AX FAS shieldless and it was surprisingly effective!

 

[tolm]

Right - well, I’ve gone shieldless and added a 6E Cargo Rack, 3D Repair Limpet Controller and a 2B AFMU (was the best I could run on a G3 Armoured PP but I also bought a 2A for when I G4 the PP!)

Lost a lot more hull than I expected - down almost 1000 to just over 3600 just for dropping the G5 C3 and C2 HRPs!!

Ah well, will give it a go anyway and see how it fares!

On the plus side - my shielded Krait Phantom with all EAX MCs just got a 6C BiWeave upgrade.

 

[Daniel Cloudsifter]

Right - well, I’ve gone shieldless and added a 6E Cargo Rack, 3D Repair Limpet Controller and a 2B AFMU (was the best I could run on a G3 Armoured PP but I also bought a 2A for when I G4 the PP!)

Lost a lot more hull than I expected - down almost 1000 to just over 3600 just for dropping the G5 C3 and C2 HRPs!!

Ah well, will give it a go anyway and see how it fares!

On the plus side - my shielded Krait Phantom with all EAX MCs just got a 6C BiWeave upgrade.

FYI, I finally did combat in my shielded Krait MK2. The combination of quickly charging/not energy hungry shields and modified shard cannons (which don't draw much from the distributor) worked very well. I killed a Basilisk and three Cyclops.

My elite pilot in the Lance fighter worked very well - when I did as someone else recommended and kept him on a tight leash. I either had him "attacking my target" whenever I wanted him to engage an interceptor or "maintain formation" so as not to draw aggro and get blown up by scouts. I let him loose on a few stray scouts, but for the most part, had him avoid them. They chew up fighters. But he dogged the Interceptors and they never downed him once!

AX Krait ship build here. Since this one had been on the back burner, some components are fully engineered yet. Need to gather more mats to polish it off.

 

[tolm]

Nice!

I may have to revisit a Kristen build but, in the meantime, I took the Challenger out for a proper run in an AX CZ …. and HATED it … well, so much for theory, I guess? Felt sluggish getting around, MCs were largely ineffective as soon as you stop slow shooting the Scout with the Plasmas and - well - just that cockpit. Never liked the Alliance ships cockpits but I’d have put up with that if it were awesome. But it was not!

However … I DID like the repair limpets and AFMU approach so I’ve taken all the internals and whacked ‘em back into my FAS: it’s hit 3300 Hull with enough limpets for the same again plus I can lower the 2A AFMU since I have less HPs.

Weapon wise I’ve gone for a single C3 gimballed EAX MC on the roof - which is perfectly capable of taking Scouts out alone - plus two C2 Mod Plasmas underneath for Scouts / Interceptor hull. Lastly I have a C2 Gauss under the nose for sniping hearts. Sure, it’s only one but it should be more effective than a Shard cannon.

Flying through a couple of AX CZs back in the FAS with this configuration was great. Managed to get pretty good at firing off the repair limpets (each does 3%+ hull) and relatively comfortably kept myself at 90% plus until the two Hydra’s rocked up and I decided to bail. AFMU also earned its keel - topping up my GMRPs from 70% to full on a couple of occasions as needed.

Meta-be damned … I’m back in a shieldless FAS!!