Allow simple ship to ship docking - Transfer fuel, cargo, repairs etc...

[NeilF]

I feel the game would benefit from allowing a ship to dock to another ship.

Consider a "Distress Call" you take the risk on investigating, and they're requiring fuel. Are you going to fly all the way to a station to outfit for fuel transfer? Are you going to fly around constantly outfitted for fuel transfer?

If you could offer a docking mode/feature, such that you could connect your ship to another, this could allow a series of things to be possible:-
- Slow fuel transfer.
- Slow cargo transfer. (Slow transfer of materials?) Give me a Polonium for 2T of Gold!
- Repair of another ship's systems using YOUR AMFUs.
- Missions to collect/deliver items to ship rather than a station etc.

Surely this would allow more variety in game play. The ability for you to be able to help other ships more often. And possibly even open up a bit more emergent game play.

I'd imagine docking would involve a nose to nose or cargo hatch to cargo hatch connection using a graphic/mechanic somewhat like cargo scooping? Once "docked" new options would allow cargo (rather than being jettisoned) to be transferred etc.

Note: This isn't suppose to replace cargo limpets or cargo limpets/scooping... Just offer an alternative... Especially in the case of fuel transfer which simply isn't possible without dedicated hardware/modules.



Example of the mechanic:-

• You target the ship (CMDR or NPC?) you wish to dock to and select a new "Request Docking" option.
• The other CMDR (NPC) gets a docking request which they must accept (think Wing invitation/accept).
• You (the person requested docking) then gets a docking HUD/GUI akin to cargo scooping or when landing on a platform to line up with the other ship. I'd suggest this is given a countdown timer (eg: 1 minute) after which, if docking has not been accomplished, it is automatically cancelled.
• The ship being docked too gets a display informing them they are being docked too (with a countdown too). They can cancel docking at any time by an option, or by just thrusting/moving.
• Once the two ships are docked (connected), new options/menus are offered (on both ships) to:-
  • Transfer fuel
  • Transfer cargo - Achieved by a new option against your cargo. ie: Instead of "Jettison" you will also have "Transfer"?
  • Transfer materials?
  • Use your AMFU on the other ship's modules? Hull? Cockpit?
  • Anything else? - eg: Give/request something as part of a mission?

Note 1: I'd suggest the moment docking is accepted, shields are dropped/disabled if this makes the game engine easier to code. You will need to cancel/end docking for the shields to then come back online again. I'd also suggest weapons and boost are disabled too.

Note 2: Once docked, any thrust away from the other ship will disable/end the docking (think vertical thrust to launch up from planet surfaces?). Also an option will allow you to end docking which will also perform a small reverse thrust (eg: 10 meters) to visually inform both parties of the end of docking.

Note 3: Maybe all the new features offered via docking could be given on a single new (dedicated) HUD. eg: When you've landed on a planet you get the new options panel for the SRV. Maybe if you've docked with another ship, a new HUD could likewise be availabe to offer you all the options available in a single place for docking features.



EDIT: With news of passenger related missions... Might be nice to have missions to pick up/drop off passengers to other vessels by docking with them.

EDIT: I wonder if there's a branch of this mechanic whereby if you disable a ship you could dock with it for more nefarious reasons?

EDIT: If we ever have Neutron charge batteries (eg: where you could store a number of neutron star charges for your FSD for later use), maybe these charges could even be transfered too. ie: Some of the locations which are now one way trips or even cannot be reached, could be with the help of other CMDRs passing on neutron charges from their batteries to yours, or driectly to your FSD. It would give the Fuel Rats another tool to help too.

 

[Lestat]

I would think with Larger ships. You have the space to have a collector Or skilled at picking up cargo even in a anaconda
(Nothing to block you like Asteroids) and a fuel transfer unit. For smaller ships you have to Go Oh well sorry I don't have a fuel transfer unit Or waste 4 to 8 cargo space to have one.

 

[NeilF]

I would think with Larger ships. You have the space to have a collector Or skilled at picking up cargo even in a anaconda
(Nothing to block you like Asteroids) and a fuel transfer unit. For smaller ships you have to Go Oh well sorry I don't have a fuel transfer unit Or waste 4 to 8 cargo space to have one.

Take my distress call example...

If you could dock with that ship, feed them some fuel to that ship at a slow rate... What would be the downside?

More gameplay is opened up?


And if I could dock with a ship and pass cargo to it more easily, over a longer time frame, what is the downside? It would take you longer than with dedicated modules, but?

And if I could use other mechanics like being able to dock to a ship and use my AMFUs to repair its modules, what is the downside?

And if I could deliver/collect (mission) related items, what is the downside?



I only see more options for gameplay personally...

 

[Shadow_Frost]

I like this. I'm there in my fully fueled python and your asp is almost out of hydrogen and I'm on your nose and all I can do is watch you explode because...well sorry dude, I can't hook your ship to mine and tow you in, I can't siphon fuel into yours from mine, I can't dock up and put you in my ship and bring you safely to dock while your ship explodes saving your life.

Nope. I watch you die.

 

[DocLooshkin]

I think this will be on the same page of the to-do list as walking around in ships and stations. It will hopefully happen, but almost certainly not for a while.

I can only agree with your points about distress calls: as much as I appreciate them on one level, they don't really make much sense the way our equipment is set up. If we had a multifunction limpet system, rather than the one-job-per-controller approach, they'd do a lot more for the game. As it stands, Commanders have to equip their ships specifically for rescue services - and given that I've only ever found two PvE rescue scenarios (ship-out-of-fuel and ship-under-attack-and-out-of-fuel), that's something that gets very old very quickly.

(On an almost completely off-topic note, does anyone actually know of a non-coding-related reason why we're only allowed job-dedicated limpet controllers, as opposed to something multifunctional? The only real trade-off I can see is whether or not these NPCs get rescued. The only real consequence I can discern is that I feel slightly sad at having to pass distress signals and leave NPC ships to die. That seems a bit morbid, even by ED standards.)

 

[Lestat]

Take my distress call example...

If you could dock with that ship, feed them some fuel to that ship at a slow rate... What would be the downside?

More gameplay is opened up?

Let see who would buy a Fuel transfer unit? Who would use it? Because even at a slow rate. Why would anyone buy a fuel Transfer unit. Because for Fuel Rates who are also Explorers would go cool I can sell it and Gain Jump Range.

And if I could dock with a ship and pass cargo to it more easily, over a longer time frame, what is the downside? It would take you longer than with dedicated modules, but?

All someone need to do do right now drop cargo. We already have Collectors and manual control. Why do we need another way to transfer cargo?

And if I could use other mechanics like being able to dock to a ship and use my AMFUs to repair its modules, what is the downside?

I think because the AMFU is in your own ship it should not be able to repair other ships.

And if I could deliver/collect (mission) related items, what is the downside?

Well selling missions should not be a problem. As long as the user can only do so many a day Let say 2 or 3 times a day.. But a user should use his Pilot skill to collect the cargo for that mission.

I only see more options for gameplay personally...

And all I see is ideas that make the game too easy.

What I think they will do is use Hanger or Docking bay for people to enter other people ships. Which I think would be a Lot cooler than two people trying to dock with each other.

 

[NeilF]

Let see who would buy a Fuel transfer unit? Who would use it? Because even at a slow rate. Why would anyone buy a fuel Transfer unit. Because for Fuel Rates who are also Explorers would go cool I can sell it and Gain Jump Range.

No attempt to address the reasons why it might improve gameplay? It's an alternative to open up more variety/opportunities in many ways.

So next time you're flying around, stop at a Distress Signal... I hope it's an "I'm out of fuel". Almost certainly won't have the current specialist equipment to help. You won't be bothered to fly off and refit. So you enjoy no gameplay.

If you could instead dock up, and sit there for a couple of mins, voila... Gameplay.

All someone need to do do right now drop cargo. We already have Collectors and manual control. Why do we need another way to transfer cargo?

Because it's another logical alternative. It means cargo transfer is still possible (slowly) without specialised outfitting, and without the hassle of scooping.

I think because the AMFU is in your own ship it should not be able to repair other ships.

*sigh*

Why not add more variety all through the same technique. Imagine now if an Anaconda on the distant works trip filled with AMFUs could help out other small ships? Especially if space is going to become even more hazardous as Michael suggests.

Might make some interesting sense with groups using a large ship to repair others after combat?

And all I see is ideas that make the game too easy.

Consider your comments... So if refueling another ship was made more difficult would that improve the game?

What we're talking about is offer a simple approach to allow more gameplay variety and depth to be introduced. I suspect if we looked at out distress call missions at the moment for example involving fuel, I almost every time the CMDR simply flies away. Wouldn't it be better if he could take part in the game play instead?

And then the option to offer an alternative method of transferring cargo. Is that really so bad? It's not as quick as limpets but if it is more efficient that scooping them, how is that a bad thing?



Ultimately other gameplay elements can be opened up simply by being able to transfer/help?:-

• Transfer cargo (slowly) as an alternative to dumping and scooping. And what if it is more efficient than scooping once you've docked?
• Using the transfer item mechanic for missions. Collect a special item from ship X and a Nav beacon. Deliver to ship Y.
• Transfer materials (slowly)? I'll give you some Polonium, if you give me two tons of Gold.
• Transfer fuel (slowly)? Fuel limpets will be far quicker, but so what if there is another method to deliver fuel too? I own an electric screw driver. Doesn't mean I don't still use a manual one at times!
• Transfer oxygen? Who knows... This may prove handy! Fuel rats?
• AMFU the other ship's module.
• A way to interact with wrecks? You can dock with it to get information (items?) from it?

Suddenly we have a whole load of new small little mechanics, offering more variety, more ways to participate in the game, and some of which may even open up some interesting emergent gameplay... God forbid that!

 

[Psycho Romeo]

I don't think any of this is necessary as suggested. This kinda stuff seems better coming from other mechanics.

Haulers loaded with AFMU and hard points docking with another ship to repair its subsystems, transfer ammo, fuel, etc.
Fuel transfer limpets already a thing, and should remain a thing.
You can maneuver belly to belly, scoop to scoop to transfer canisters quickly.

More people would carry something like fuel transfer limpets if there were more reasons to use them (on NPCs, etc). Personally I think fuel transfer limpets should also double as a potent (sublight) fuel scoop as well.

 

[NeilF]

More people would carry something like fuel transfer limpets if there were more reasons to use them (on NPCs, etc). Personally I think fuel transfer limpets should also double as a potent (sublight) fuel scoop as well.

Nope... (virtually) No one will carry fuel limpets unless they intend to fuel someone, or just have space to spare. Why give up (valuable) cargo space, trip, after trip, after trip... for that time sometime in a hundred jumps time the chance to use it pops up by chance. You'll outfit you ship for what happens more regularly.. not rarely.

ie: A trader won't because they want to use the space for cargo. A pirate won't because they want the cargo space for armour or to carry goods. An explorer won't as they won't waste the weight. Any combat ship will use spare space probably for more useful items... So when the opportunity finally arises when you can refuel (save) a CMDR or an NPC... hard cheese... No way to do it, even slowly... Why squander gameplay/interaction opportunities! Not like ED can afford it!


And as regards the ability to transfer cargo from one ship to another in a more elegant manner? What's the problem with that? If you like scooping... scoop. If you don't dock and pass it over (slowly) that way without the risk of destroying cargo by accident.

And then the suggested ability to introduce new mechanics such as transfer things like materials when docked togethor? Allow someone to specialise in material collection and trade it! Or a ship makes a jump too far with jumponium? At the moment it has no choice but to self destruct if they are not lucky to find materials with SRVs locally. With this suggestion a rescue party/ship could fly to them and save them.

 

[Psycho Romeo]

Nope

The content of your post is absurd. If 50% of applicable signal sources or PoIs could accept fuel for rep/monetary recompense, a lot more people would carry them. You distress signals as justification for the presence of other fuel transfer means, when really there's little reason to add a new mechanic when we already have one. Now, of course traders aren't going to carry one. Of course pirates aren't going to carry one. Why would they? They're not looking to rescue CMDRs or NPCs (lol, pirate). Leave that to the people who want to rescue CMDRs/NPCs. Like pilots running missions, or signal sources. Players shouldn't get to do something just because the opportunity arises for them to do it. They need to be prepared too. Should a trader magically be able to save a CMDR from being attacked just because they get the opportunity to? No? Hard cheese?

And as regards the ability to transfer cargo from one ship to another in a more elegant manner? What's the problem with that? If you like scooping... scoop. If you don't dock and pass it over that way without the risk of destroying cargo by accident.

I fully support the existing cargo transfer method of maneuvering belly to belly. Actually I think something like the docking computer should be able to automatically maneuver the ships into the correct position to do this.

And then the suggested ability to introduce new mechanics such as transfer things like materials? Allow someone to specialise in material collection and trade it!

Materials are a planetary suite thing, not really a cargo thing. Beyond that I don't have any substantial argument on the topic. I find the entire concept of materials awkward.

 

[NeilF]

The content of your post is absurd. If 50% of applicable signal sources or PoIs could accept fuel for rep/monetary recompense, a lot more people would carry them. You distress signals as justification for the presence of other fuel transfer means, when really there's little reason to add a new mechanic when we already have one. Now, of course traders aren't going to carry one. Of course pirates aren't going to carry one. Why would they? They're not looking to rescue CMDRs or NPCs (lol, pirate). Leave that to the people who want to rescue CMDRs/NPCs. Like pilots running missions, or signal sources. Players shouldn't get to do something just because the opportunity arises for them to do it. They need to be prepared too. Should a trader magically be able to save a CMDR from being attacked just because they get the opportunity to? No? Hard cheese?

We'll have to disagree here.

Is an explorer going to go out with modules/limpets weighing them down? And then when after numerous remote systems of nothing, they encounter a distress signal (NPC or CMDR) who needs fuel? Can they go there, assess if they have spare fuel, refuel themselves first if needs be, then go and dock and save the NPC/CMDR? No... Instead at the moment, fly on by... No game play possible...

And I suspect many other classes (eg: Traders) likewise will not carry modules/cargo they just don't need most of the time.

I fully support the existing cargo transfer method of maneuvering belly to belly. Actually I think something like the docking computer should be able to automatically maneuver the ships into the correct position to do this.

So if this were a "mechanic" that lined up the cargo scoops so you could maneuver them so they line them up to transfer cargo straight across? Maybe to the point they were 1 inch away? Maybe to the point they were touching? Maybe to the point they were connected (& docked)?

Materials are a planetary suite thing, not really a cargo thing. Beyond that I don't have any substantial argument on the topic. I find the entire concept of materials awkward.

In 2.1 they will be across the board I believe.

ps: I dislike materials too! If only to get them you HAVE TO farm them. At least if you could trade with another CMDR (you dock to), we have a emergent economy!

And as I said, being able to give another CMDR materials could be part of a (rare) rescue mission without which they might have to self destruct.

 

[Psycho Romeo]

Is an explorer going to go out with modules/limpets weighing them down?

No, being an explorer, they are going to explore.

More multi-purpose builds (like people doing missions or looking for rep) might decide "you know what, I can spare a class 1 slot for a fuel transfer limpet controller", if their choice results in something meaningful to them. Such as, enabling missions and rewards they wouldn't have access to otherwise.

If explorers could exchange some fuel for a cubic butt-tonne of exploration data, whatever, then maybe explorers might carry one too. The point is, if people had more ways to use it, then the existing stuff would get used more. You're suggesting make it easier to use the existing stuff so that we can use it more often. I'm suggesting make the stuff used more often so we might decide to take the existing stuff. The former adds convenience and subtracts consequence, for the sake of gameplay. The latter adds consequence without adding convenience, for the sake of gameplay. One of these two is superior, considering the nature of ED.

So if this were a "mechanic" that lined up the cargo scoops so you could maneuver them so they line them up to transfer cargo straight across? Maybe to the point they were 1 inch away? Maybe to the point they were touching? Maybe to the point they were connected (& docked)?

The point of my post was to convey that we didn't need new mechanics for the things you mentioned, that the existing mechanics work well enough. Does there need to be any new mechanics to allow transfer? No, jettison (abandon) works fine. Could the docking computer help with this? Sure, that be neat. This is the only distinction between what you suggested and what I think is a good idea.

 

[xondk]

Hrm, it is an interesting idea, mechanic wise docking cargo opening to cargo opening, might be a bit tricky though, because of where they sit, for example with the anaconda, but the anaconda has two cargo openings, you will notice that limpets deliver materials to the one at the docking bay (square) part of the anaconda, or used to last I checked. So it idea is quite interesting.

That said anyone know if there's a diagram or similar where the various cargo bays are located?

 

[NeilF]

The point of my post was to convey that we didn't need new mechanics for the things you mentioned, that the existing mechanics work well enough. Does there need to be any new mechanics to allow transfer? No, jettison (abandon) works fine. Could the docking computer help with this? Sure, that be neat. This is the only distinction between what you suggested and what I think is a good idea.

You seem to revel in faff So I'd need a docking computer to achieve this? I've never owned a docking computer... Don't want to. Why another reliance?


I target another ship. Choose an option to dock to it (think Wing request). The other ship then has to accept. I then get a graphic (think cargo alignment) showing me how to line up my ship to theirs, until we make contact and are docked. Done.

At the very least we can then transfer cargo...

Even better, transfer fuel, materials, maybe even allow one ship to AMFU the other.

The moment either ships moves, the docking link it broken.

ps: Personally I'd suggest shields would need to be lowered too for a docking request to be possible!

 

[Psycho Romeo]

You seem to revel in faff So I'd need a docking computer to achieve this? I've never owned a docking computer... Don't want to. Why another reliance?

You can maneuver hatch to hatch without a docking computer, just like you can dock without a docking computer. That's the issue I find with your suggested implementation: everything about it implies that this thing should be made and supported, when in reality the current things should be supported instead.

 

[NeilF]

You can maneuver hatch to hatch without a docking computer, just like you can dock without a docking computer. That's the issue I find with your suggested implementation: everything about it implies that this thing should be made and supported, when in reality the current things should be supported instead.

So my suggestion:-
1) You need to both lower shields.
2) You target the other ship and take an option to request docking. (If either ship's shields up are, an error is returned and docking denied)
3) The other player receives a docking request (think Wing request) and has to accept it.
4) When the other player has accepted your request, a docking GUI is offered akin to cargo scooping/landing to show your approach.
5) When contact is made you are docked. Additional interfaces/options are offered to facilitate the new functions. eg: An optoin next to your cargo to "Transfer".

Now that to me feels like quite a nice effective elegant solution...


Are you able to explain how two players go about doing your hatch to hatch method of transferring cargo? I've never done it, so I'm interested how friendly/efficient it is.

And let's ignore the fact that doesn't add the other mechanics I'd put on the table too... (eg: fuel transfer)

 

[Psycho Romeo]

Are you able to explain how two players go about doing your hatch to hatch method of transferring cargo? I've never done it, so I'm interested how friendly/efficient it is.

Lots of debug camera. I haven't done it myself, I just read about it being surprisingly effective. Jettisoned cargo just flooded out of one hatch and straight into the other's scoop.

I think it'd be neat if the little display we get when we reveal hatch will 'see' another player's deployed hatch in the same way it 'see's' cargo canisters. But this is my point exactly. Everything you suggest, except material transfer and AMFU sharing, already exists in the game. Support the feature from the existing mechanics, rather than just add a new mechanic that makes the others invalid.

 

[DHMeyer]

I feel the game would benefit from allowing a ship to dock to another ship.

Consider a "Distress Call" you take the risk on investigating, and they're requiring fuel. Are you going to fly all the way to a station to outfit for fuel transfer? Are you going to fly around constantly outfitted for fuel transfer?

If you could enable a docking mode/feature, such that you could connect your ship to another to allow a series of things to be possible:-
- Slow fuel transfer.
- Slow cargo transfer.
- Repair of another ships systems using YOUR AMFUs.
- Missions to collect/deliver items to ship rather than a station etc.

Surely this would allow more variety in game play. The ability for you to be able to help other ships more often. And possibly even open up a bit more emergent game play.


I'd image docking would involve a nose to nose or cargo hatch to cargo hatch connection using a graphic/mechanic somewhat like cargo scooping? Once "docked" new options would allow cargo (rather than being jettisoned) to be transferred etc.


note: This isn't suppose to replace cargo limpets or cargo limpets/scooping... Just offer an alternative... Especially in the case of fuel transfer which simply isn't possible without dedicated hardware/modules.

Good ideas

 

[NeilF]

Good ideas

OP tidied up, with a propsed example of the mechanic at work in the game.

 

[Bran Tse Mallory]

+Rep for suggesting an interesting game-play addition. I'd certainly enjoy doing these kind of missions. Well written too