An Elegant Alternative to Shadowbans

[shadragon]

I play World of Tanks and World of Warships quite a bit. When you get a player who kills another player on their team, they turn pink in the next game to stand out to all. It's a mark of shame and quite effective at discouraging aggravating players. You can shoot a pink player without penalty. If the pink player continues to shoot friendly players it results in a ban.

When you do things that are disruptive over a long period of time in Elite, you can end up with a Shadowban. That's an enforced instance where you are pretty much alone. Mandatory solo mode, or a virtual naughty step. From what I understand those shadowbans are never permanent so you can end up back in Open no worse for wear.

Instead of a shadowban, what do you think of an enforced Ironman mode for offenders?

Kill a clean player and you go under a 24h Ironman warning
Kill a second clean player and you go under a 48h Ironman warning
Kill a third clean player and you go under a 72h Ironman warning. etc. etc. etc.

Each subsequent Clean player kill adds another 24h to the next subsequent Ironman condition. Die while that Ironman time is in effect and your position gets reset.

The players under caution can fly around in Open, but if you die while in Ironman mode, your position is wiped and you start again in a Sidey with 1,000 credits. Whether such players are marked for other players to identify is a subject for debate.

There are a very small number who won't care, but the griefers in FDL's and Conda's shooting up noobs in Eravate will have to think twice about killing a Clean ship under these conditions.

What do you think?

 

[skurvenyzmrd]

nope, open is open and all goes. instead of some silly SBs or ironman modes imposed FD should implement some quality crime and punishment system that would make sense lore wise.

 

[VR Morgan Grimes]

I think the OP is under the impression that killing a clean player results in a shadowban, it doesn't and is a valid form of gameplay in open.

 

[MottiKhan]

The problem with punishing players that shoot other players is that FD doesn't consider that to be a bad thing. People don't get shadowbanned for murder. I've seen reddit posts that show players that are upset over shadowbans for combat logging, which is a type of griefing. There are probably other things that FD consider to be griefing, but I haven't heard of them punishing murderers.

That being said, yes, it would be a good thing to do with combat loggers. Warning at first and then temporary ironman mode 2nd. 3rd offense would be to permanently wipe the save. Not a bad idea.

 

[Mighty Dangerous]

I think this thread is low quality.

 

[Rhaedas]

Shadowbanning is for breaking rules outside of the game's universe. Cheats and such. You can kill innocents in the game, it's part of the game. What doesn't work so well is how the game universe sees you, and makes you pay for such an act. That is what should be discussed.

If someone comes along in a given system and attacks someone else with no legal motive WITHIN THAT SYSTEM, then things should happen against that player that make them have to be on their guard. And this is the problem, an experienced PvPer isn't gong to see a typical security enforcement, if it even shows, to be a big challenge, so their crime in that system isn't very enforced. Enforced means that they would think twice before doing it again, and/or be run out of the system unable to do it again. Of course the ultimate justice can't be done, but the next best thing, attacked upon entry into the system, would make it difficult. Now, they'd move elsewhere, sure. Or face the enforcers. But key is, the system and its laws should escalate to a point where murder within its boundary becomes problematic. And currently, it's not.

 

[Adept]

The problem with punishing players that shoot other players is that FD doesn't consider that to be a bad thing.

It's not quite this simple. You haven't been paying attention to what David and recently Sandro have been saying in live streams and at other events. The goal is for Elite to be primarily a PvE co-op game and wanton murder is to be disincentivised. Eventually the Pilots Federation will get some teeth in this. If you want to pirate players learn to do it without blowing up ships. If you want to fight players there are plenty of legit ways (powerplay, CQC, warzones).

 

[The Wallet Inspector]

Shadowbans are for players utilizing exploits and being vile in chat, or for similar reasons, not for killing clean ships. Other than that it is a nice idea, harsh but fair, especially if you combat log in PvP, or use network tools to kick people from your instance...

 

[shadragon]

It's not quite this simple. You haven't been paying attention to what David and recently Sandro have been saying in live streams and at other events. The goal is for Elite to be primarily a PvE co-op game and wanton murder is to be disincentivised. Eventually the Pilots Federation will get some teeth in this. If you want to pirate players learn to do it without blowing up ships. If you want to fight players there are plenty of legit ways (powerplay, CQC, warzones).

And losing your entire position gains is quite the disincentive.

This would actually aid piracy long term.

 

[Peter Thompson]

Die while that Ironman time is in effect and your position gets reset.

Wouldn't this essentially mean that you can grief someone and then just get in a danky sidewinder, commit suicide and it goes away? Because I don't think that would discourage griefing in anyway.

Plus, what about piracy? More often than not you might be required to assault, and if not compliant, murder clean vessels. Some extra punishment besides wanted state and police response might result in a decrease of piracy altogether, something that as a trader would benefit me, but where's the challenge then? Its supposed to be a cutthroat galaxy!

 

[Mighty Dangerous]

Shadowbanning is for breaking rules outside of the game's universe. Cheats and such. You can kill innocents in the game, it's part of the game. What doesn't work so well is how the game universe sees you, and makes you pay for such an act. That is what should be discussed.

If someone comes along in a given system and attacks someone else with no legal motive WITHIN THAT SYSTEM, then things should happen against that player that make them have to be on their guard. And this is the problem, an experienced PvPer isn't gong to see a typical security enforcement, if it even shows, to be a big challenge, so their crime in that system isn't very enforced. Enforced means that they would think twice before doing it again, and/or be run out of the system unable to do it again. Of course the ultimate justice can't be done, but the next best thing, attacked upon entry into the system, would make it difficult. Now, they'd move elsewhere, sure. Or face the enforcers. But key is, the system and its laws should escalate to a point where murder within its boundary becomes problematic. And currently, it's not.

Yeah, that makes sense to normal people who live in the galaxy. (i.e. Npc's)
However, it's not what the Pilot's Federation or the game or the lore is about.
The bounties are set by the Pilot's Federation , we are above minor faction law.
There is no one law or one police force. The galaxy isn't one giant society or a country.
Hence cut throat. Hence we aren't arrested like normal citizens would be.
So factions send killers after us, breaking someone else's law but no one cares in space what some other system, planet or faction thinks.

 

[Navigare Necesse Est]

No !

 

[The Wallet Inspector]

And losing your entire position gains is quite the disincentive.

This would actually aid piracy long term.

It is a good job the people who make this game don't agree that losing your entire position is a fit disincentive . Maybe though, there is another game out there like this what you could try, that has this level of restriction in the sandbox.

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Its supposed to be a cutthroat galaxy!

Yeah well pirates can still give your throat a tickle with a feather duster

 

[MottiKhan]

It's not quite this simple. You haven't been paying attention to what David and recently Sandro have been saying in live streams and at other events. The goal is for Elite to be primarily a PvE co-op game and wanton murder is to be disincentivised. Eventually the Pilots Federation will get some teeth in this. If you want to pirate players learn to do it without blowing up ships. If you want to fight players there are plenty of legit ways (powerplay, CQC, warzones).

You're correct that I haven't been paying attention to live streams. They're not reliable sources of news and information. More like a brainstorming thing. I've seen nothing published that says murder is a bad thing in ED. I don't personally care for it, but FD are the ones who make the rules. Not me. And by extension, not you either.

 

[Ian Doncaster]

Two major problems with all ideas which boil down to "impose really harsh automated penalties for killing clean players"

1) The "griefer trap". A griefer, in a Suicidewinder, "attacks" another player, deliberately missing their shots. The player takes the bait, fires back, and kills a clean target. The game imposes excessive consequences on the "wrong" person - in this case, the griefer's friend comes in with their Corvette and knocks the player right back to a starting Sidewinder.

2) The "legitimate Clean target". ED has a whole bunch of situations where opening fire on (and killing) a locally-Clean target is definitely "legitimate" and within even a generally cooperative spirit of playing the game:
- you're a genuine pirate, and your opponent messes up and flies into an asteroid / hits self-destruct instead of dump cargo / etc.
- you're a bounty hunter, and KWS reveals your target has a 1 MCr bounty for somewhere not here.
- you're a powerplayer, and so are they
- you're in opposed CGs (rare, but they happen)
- you're on opposite sides of a CZ
- (potentially) you've taken opposite sides of a mission
- (if minor faction membership for players is implemented) you're trying to destabilise a system for BGS by destroying a faction's ships
- you accidentally left "report crimes off" and someone is trying to kill you
- you get a bounty for shooting at an NPC and someone comes to collect
- (probably a bunch more I've forgotten)

 

[Adept]

And losing your entire position gains is quite the disincentive.

This would actually aid piracy long term.

I still hope the "Declaration of piracy" mechanic will actually get implemented one of these days, as well as a proper "underworld / criminal" play style with reputation mechanics and fleshed out black markets.

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You're correct that I haven't been paying attention to live streams. They're not reliable sources of news and information. More like a brainstorming thing. I've seen nothing published that says murder is a bad thing in ED. I don't personally care for it, but FD are the ones who make the rules. Not me. And by extension, not you either.

No need to get passive aggressive. We can discuss this like civilized people I should think.