An extension of my cargo thread; A new question for the community.

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Deleted member 110222

D
Do you guys think that all ships should have a built-in, dedicated and crucially small cargo hold?

I'm talking four tonnes, tops, and would fully support only two tonnes; the equivalent to a C1 cargo rack optional internal.

Two tonnes. That's two limpets for fighters, two escape pods for S&R, two refuels for rats, two units of rewards for data couriers...

Everybody, and I mean everybody, wins, and nobody loses anything.
 
I don't think so, no.

I do think FD should design game mechanics so that all ships have a very strong incentive to carry cargo racks though. FD currently rewards min/maxing too much. Giving people built-in cargo would just feed into that, I think.
 
It seems that the proliferation of new ways to interact with the universe will require some changes if small ships like the Cobra are going to remain viable all-around ships. Based on lore/novel descriptions, it feels right (to me) that such a ship should be able to carry enough equipment to engage in most content without a refit. (Preferably with the feeling of using a jury rigged contraption.)

I like your idea because I always feel unprepared without the ability to carry ANY cargo, but don't know yet what the best all-around solution is to the problem.
 
At first I thought - great idea. After giving a thought more - not. Now - I don't know.

Maybe instead of giving fixed solutions let's give players total freedom of what to install? And since we can store whole ships, let us have these 2t of personal cargo available at stations so you still can accept commodity reward without having a cargo rack installed?

Giving players options is always more profitable then creating fixed solutions.
 
Two tonnes. That's two limpets for fighters

So, you can scoop from 1-2 combat encounters - assuming you too a limpet controller.... doesn't seem enough

Two tonnes. That's two escape pods for S&R

Usually there are more than 2 escape pods ....

Two tonnes. That's two units of rewards for data couriers...

There's normally more than 2 units of reward....

.... I see a problem with this idea ;) (and the proliferation of limpet controllers is a bigger issue to outfitting a ship at the mo' IMHO)
 
Well with any luck the medium version of the iCourier will be added some time soon.
A multi-role with great shields and thin hull. Good hard point placement and 25ish lyr range on an A-fit unengineered. Similar handling to a Chieftain or Defender. An imperial ship with brakes (unlike the Cutter).
 
Maybe, but I'd go even smaller, something like 1,2,4 for small, medium and large ships..
But I don't think it is necessary, nice as it might be, it detracts from the need to balance your modules a bit - annoying as that might be and as much as I like going mulitrole myself.
I do think limpet controllers should be rationalised and that limpets themselves shouldn't be cargo but an ammo on the controller. Personally making all ships have a crummy but viable do everything controller and a small base limpet ammo capacity would be good. But then that's me making an argument for a specific system similar to your more general cargo rack suggestion :)
So, maybe, but have to keep it minimal and I'm not entirely convinced.
 

Robert Maynard

Volunteer Moderator
Every ship (that can jump) has a cargo hatch - which can reasonably be assumed to be connected to a cargo handling system - which might reasonably be assumed to be able to store a few tonnes "in the pipeline" (albeit unable to be discharged in any other order than the reverse of loading) even if no cargo holds are installed.
 
I'm not sure what this solves? It's the same problem in 12 months when that isn't enough then. Frontier are, whether people (including Frontier) accept it or not, still iterating the design with respect to engagement. At some point a decision was made to diversify modules, so making everything work harder, not smarter. In a game with small, medium and large ships that have very fixed internals.

Ships from 4 years ago sort of don't make sense now. Orca leverages a limited-module-type design that's been repeated in Beluga (and Dolphin) yet that has no correlation with the mechanics added and aren't consistent with additive module bays like the planetary approach suite, or the military modules. No other mechanic has ever had that particular compromise made. So we have two polar-opposite approaches to the concept of a defined module bay.

In short, there is cross-purpose design language and there's actually quite a massive disparity between various mechanics being built. It's not overly consistent. It's like the various teams working on mechanics, just aren't talking to each other.

Frontier have not, even after 4 years, settled on a singular design language and instead tend to piece-meal outcomes. For example; if we consider military slots? these were added to enhance the value. However the locked passenger module bays are the opposite; they take the place of a general module bay. Rather than these being additional, and thus enhancing the ships value as a passenger vessel, they enforce it. These are quite different design goals and clearly were designed, developed and implemented by different people/ teams.

Arguably, Frontier actually re-tooling internals ship-wide, and refactoring the entire fleet to have a manufacturer-consistent approach, with a set of specialised bays (ie that are additive and don't cannibalize existing slots) would probably resolve part of the problem. Frontier also looking at proliferation and reducing duplication of capability across endless modules would also solve much of the issue.

Most all of that can be done without forcing people to just re-engineer everything again.

Really it's simply that the game is 4+ years old, it contains far more module and proliferation than the original design model really considered and this is not going to get any better. The more modules Frontier add, the less people will be able to engage with them, or the resulting mechanics they facilitate.

I honestly don't know just how much of this Frontier thinks about. The design goals around how they expect people to interact with much of anything never really seem to be more than a passing interest.
 
I never understood tonnage being a measure of size.

A ton of sand would take up a hellava lot more space than say a ton of Osmium.

Cubic meter of sand is around 1.28 tonnes, so sod it, lets call it 1 ton. So 1 cubic meter of sand weights 1 ton.

In my 4 ton hold that's 4 cubic meters of sand.

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1 cubic meter of Osmium is 122 tons.

So my 4 ton hold can only hold 0.2 cubic meters of osmium?


GOD i'm so confused.



Sorry mate: Cargo hold full.

one-single-pallet-of-boxes-in-large-empty-warehouse-philadelphia-pennsylvania-AD33YN.jpg
 
Every ship (that can jump) has a cargo hatch - which can reasonably be assumed to be connected to a cargo handling system - which might reasonably be assumed to be able to store a few tonnes "in the pipeline" (albeit unable to be discharged in any other order than the reverse of loading) even if no cargo holds are installed.

The consistency that is being able to scoop up materials in a ship, yet not a 1t canister; even when both are presented at a similar scale to each other. Consistency in delivery, Robert, is not something one can easily use in the same sentence as Frontier. They are a great team who are just making sh*t up just all the time still and aren't always considering the consequences down the line. I've kinda made my peace with it to be fair; it's just what they do.
 
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Robert Maynard

Volunteer Moderator
I never understood tonnage being a measure of size.

A ton of sand would take up a hellava lot more space than say a ton of Osmium.

Cubic meter of sand is around 1.28 tonnes, so sod it, lets call it 1 ton. So 1 cubic meter of sand weights 1 ton.

In my 4 ton hold that's 4 cubic meters of sand.



1 cubic meter of Osmium is 122 tons.

So my 4 ton hold can only hold 0.2 cubic meters of osmium?


GOD i'm so confused.

In a ship where everything would seem to be governed by mass, the mass is more important than the actual volume of what is carried.

A 1t commodity canister can accommodate 1t of hydrogen fuel (presumably liquid) so about 14.1m³.

Consistency of mass distribution would be, I expect, fairly critical in ensuring that cargo racks don't collapse during manoeuvring or jumps.
 
In a ship where everything would seem to be governed by mass, the mass is more important than the actual volume of what is carried.

And as such, mass doesn't have to be consistent across every container; just where that mass is located. Something that's solved every time various space agencies lob cargo or people (both have mass) into space to rendezvous with the ISS.

It matters more where that mass is; reaction control systems mostly have that sorted. Volume simply constrains how much of any given mass will physically fit. Finding space for 10t of gold is a very different proposition to 10t of feathers. Volume still matters. Frontier have simply hand waved that they can fit anything into a generic container and it will always be 1t.

Apparently, they have amazing compression routines for physical cargo in the future! ;)

The thing is, didn't the game originally consider containers as a 'unit' and not in an actual weight precisely to avoid this sort of argument?
 
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In a ship where everything would seem to be governed by mass, the mass is more important than the actual volume of what is carried.

A 1t commodity canister can accommodate 1t of hydrogen fuel (presumably liquid) so about 14.1m³.

Consistency of mass distribution would be, I expect, fairly critical in ensuring that cargo racks don't collapse during manoeuvring or jumps.


This is where I quickly get confused. So cargo is not about size, but mass. Therefore it's theoretically possible that a side winder could carry 80 cubic meters of expanded polysterene as long as it doesn't go over 4 tons even though the ship is only 5 meters tall (x15 x20)?

But then surely size should govern not mass?

The OP asking for a 2 ton capacity glove box in the cockpit, could either be 40 cubic meters in size, or 3ft. Not quite sure which.

Post thought:

Wish they had just used ambiguous 'units'. 4 units of Osmium or 4 units of expanded polystyrene much easier. Using a weight as volume is confusing to me.

A 4 unit witchspace holdall in the ship doesn't sound unreasonable tbh.
 
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And as such, mass doesn't have to be consistent across every container; just where that mass is located. Something that's solved every time various space agencies lob cargo or people (both have mass) into space to rendezvous with the ISS.

It matters more where that mass is; reaction control systems mostly have that sorted. Volume simply constrains how much of any given mass will physically fit. Finding space for 10t of gold is a very different proposition to 10t of feathers. Volume still matters. Frontier have simply hand waved that they can fit anything into a generic container and it will always be 1t.

Apparently, they have amazing compression routines for physical cargo in the future! ;)

The thing is, didn't the game originally consider containers as a 'unit' and not in an actual weight precisely to avoid this sort of argument?

Wish I could +1 : The 'unit' comment is EXACTLY in sync with my train of thought. +1 for the rest of the post as well.

Compression routines indeed. :D
 

Deleted member 110222

D
So, you can scoop from 1-2 combat encounters - assuming you too a limpet controller.... doesn't seem enough



Usually there are more than 2 escape pods ....



There's normally more than 2 units of reward....

.... I see a problem with this idea ;) (and the proliferation of limpet controllers is a bigger issue to outfitting a ship at the mo' IMHO)

The point is that it's so small that it does not upset game balance. It's an absolute minimum allotment that lets ships carry a tiny amount of loot. If you want more, fit bigger racks.

I reckon it would be welcomed by the Powerplay community, allowing even fighters to take part in the cargo side of the game, whilst remaining entirely inferior to dedicated cargo ships.
 

Deleted member 110222

D
Yeah, two tonnes built into every ship, for sure. It should just be the bit of space above the cargo door basically.

Exactly! All ships have a fully modelled hold, even if they have no cargo rack modules.
 
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