And then IT hit - Like a Bolt of Lightning (long - RP aspects)

[Werewolf13]

A Little Background...

I play games for entertainment. I role play and get immersed in the story. Pretty much play all the games I own that way except the hex based war games I play (quite a few and also played for entertainment and the added benefit of learning a bit of history ). Been gaming since I was 9 years old when I discovered RISK and doing RPG's since I was 21 when D&D first came out. That's 57 years of gaming. My wife has never understood why I game. Only 1 of my 3 daughters understands why (and has no issue playing evil). My son and all 8 of my grand kids are gamers.

Here's the important part of what is to come. In all that time no matter how hard I have tried I just cannot play the bad guy, can't play evil. The closest I come to it is playing a stealth character and even then I rarely use that game talent to steal though I do use it to asasinate bad guys. I've tried to be evil but invariably the good guy comes out and that role is slipped back into - never fails - always happens.

Getting on with the story...

This morning I decided to take one of the black ops missions offered to me. The faction was one I was allied with attached to the Federation to whom I was also allied. I figured - what the h.ell - something new. Probably get some type of kill mission against an enemy faction and have to destroy a generator, steal some data or something and it certainly wasn't going to be a massacre mission or anything like that (wishful thinking). But with those missions you never know what you're gonna get until you make it to the target system.

When I got to the target system a message comes in over comms - kill 15 traders. What? They're in a Federation Faction. Their not a war with the guys who sent me to take 'em out (at least not that I was aware of). Didn't make any sense. Then role play mode kicked in and I thought to myself - you took the contract - you knew that what it entailed wouldn't be known until you got to the target system. Just grit your teeth and move on.

I considered abandoning it - 2.7M credits. Chicken feed - not that much money - well - not now anyway. I'd lose some rep with the faction and the Feds but both were at 100% already - so that wouldn't be that big of a deal either but... [role play kicks in] It was a contract - keep your word and do the job. And that's what I did. I accepted the situation for what it was - a bad choice and moved out to do the job.

Headed for the Nav Beacon to get the location of the targets - I'd stopped thinking of them as traders - targets is what they were. Got a hit and headed to where they were - 3 of 'em. Orbited the planet for a while and got a "mission target located" message and dropped in to the location. And there they were 3 traders - a T-6, T-7 and a T-9 escorted by 2 Cobra MK3's and a Sidewinder. I immediately scanned them and recognized that it was not the traders who were the mission targets but the escorts. I thought that strange but it was preferable to take them out rather than the helpless transports.

The Cobra's were rated Mostly Harmless and the Sidewinder Harmless. My undeserved Dangerous rating (I suck at combat) in my mostly engineered Python would decimate these guys (I was already starting to feel bad about this). I targeted the closest Cobra and it took about 15 seconds to merge his atoms with the great black - at which point - my issue with being a bad guy kicked in. Still had a job to do but I figured I didn't have to kill'em. I took the other Cobra down to about 10% or so while the gutsy Sidey poked the bear with his B.B. guns. The Cobra boogied outt'a Dodge and at that point I fired up the FSD and headed back to the station where I'd gotten the mission. While traveling I thought about the mission, decided I'd be better off not taking any more of those and would abandon the one still active upon arrival - which I did. $2.7M and a loss of Rep with the Fed from 100% down to 97% (which was actually more that just 3% because I'd been at 100% for a long time and was doing mostly rep missions for days since I got there). Didn't care. Bad choices equals bad consequences.

I thought that was the end of it but after calling it quits for a break the thing still bugged me...

AND then it hit - that bolt of lightning referenced in the subject...

I served in Subs during my service in the US Navy. I've read quite a few historical non-fiction books about the Silent Service during WWII covering both the US and German submarine war in the Pacific and Atlantic. What those guys did and what the boat I served on would have done if the balloon ever went up (I made peace with that about 3 weeks after reporting aboard) would have been killing merchants. What the WWII subs did and did very well was killing merchant ships (traders). Were they bad guys for doing it? Nope - they were military men doing their duty and what was necessary to win the war. And that was real life not some silly space game.

Whoa! Now I could justify doing those types of missions, at least as long as they targeted an enemy - and being just a run of the mill pilot what the heck would I know about the backroom machinations of the leaders of a super power and a local faction. Take the job and do it.

Cop out? Maybe?

After all, ED's just a game. Shouldn't have to justify what I do in it but 57 years of habit are kind'a hard to break. If there was a way to take revenge on the faction that gave me the mission I'd surely do it but the game mechanics pretty much prevent that so...

Too bad. That would really be fun!

 

[Speedcuffs]

Superb! +rep.
I get you, I understand where you're coming from.
Comparing the targets to merchantmen, never thought of that.
I shall have to think on this...

 

[FrogsFriend]

... If there was a way to take revenge on the faction that gave me the mission I'd surely do it but the game mechanics pretty much prevent that so...

Too bad. That would really be fun!

You could always reduce their influence, by legitimate means of course such as trading, missions and bounties for others in the system, and ultimately take away any stations they control and sink them to the bottom of the heap

... but that may cause a number of unnecessary wars along the way, that you may not be happy with being responsible for :|
Revenge can be tricky like that.

Excellent write-up by the way [up]

 

[Hans v Martell]

I'm quite similar. Although I focus on combat, I never take missions involving killing civilians, traders, politicians and even deserters. Once, by mistake I took a deserter assassination mission, and already from far the guy was heard on the comms like "I just want to live in peace", "They won't make me do that ever again", and so on.

I could not do it. Silly, ain't?

No, I do not think so. It is not that your actions don't show your personality if it's just pixels you kill.

My respect, CMDR! o7

 

[Vedmo]

I served in Subs during my service in the US Navy. I've read quite a few historical non-fiction books about the Silent Service during WWII covering both the US and German submarine war in the Pacific and Atlantic. What those guys did and what the boat I served on would have done if the balloon ever went up (I made peace with that about 3 weeks after reporting aboard) would have been killing merchants. What the WWII subs did and did very well was killing merchant ships (traders). Were they bad guys for doing it? Nope - they were military men doing their duty and what was necessary to win the war. And that was real life not some silly space game.

My Grandfather served on the USS Sunfish is WWII. Years ago I looked into it and got him an official list of all ships they had sunk on his patrols, and was amazed it was almost entirely merchant ships (I also had no clue they registered success in tonnage either). He pointed out it was the war effort and how you'd have to be crazy to be a merchant marine during such times. I thought sub-mariners were as crazy at it got, maybe not.

 

[Tarman]

Doesn't sound like a cop-out to me, sounds like you learned some acting skills; that's the heart of RPG imo, the role-playing itself. It's a chance to go outside your comfort zone and see what it'd be like to do and be something apart from your IRL self, and not just in terms of "woot I killed a monster". Sometimes you can play the monster, or at least greyer versions of yourself if the monster is still too far. It's all acting, not a reflection of you as an IRL person.

Doesn't make you evil; in fact I've found that the disconnect can usually be measured to show you just how far you are IRL from your assumed role. I can play villains easily but IRL I barely want to kill insects in my home unless they're pest-grade invaders like ants or actually dangerous such as wasps. 99% of spiders get a free pass or a trip outside in a jar.

You're only a Pretend Spaceman, after all. It's sometimes tough for people to separate character from player, but kudos for finding a role to play in your roleplay.

 

[Mrat13]

It's weird how we justify ourselves sometimes.

I was all fine and dandy playing the loyal Imp, bashing the Feds and Aisling, propping up the Imp slave trade, and acting like the top 1% represented the whole.

But then came to 'goid fighting, , and the Feds and Imps suddenly started skipping through the streets together, and had a baby called AEGIS, and honestly the more that goes on, the more I keep looking at the Alliance (well the Alliance community), and thinking, they seem like a nice bunch....

 

[Limoncello Lizard]

If there was a way to take revenge on the faction that gave me the mission I'd surely do it but the game mechanics pretty much prevent that so...

Too bad. That would really be fun!

You can get revenge on the faction, provided it controls a system or a station or two. Drive its influence down, get it into a war with another faction - just make sure it's one that's an opposite ethos. Put their nemesis in control of their system. Make sure that they know who did it, by becoming hostile and wanted in the process.

 

[Werewolf13]

You can get revenge on the faction, provided it controls a system or a station or two. Drive its influence down, get it into a war with another faction - just make sure it's one that's an opposite ethos. Put their nemesis in control of their system. Make sure that they know who did it, by becoming hostile and wanted in the process.

Been there, done that. Takes too long. Feels like work. Tried it with the anarchy faction in my home system for awhile - was allied with everyone else, got the anarchy faction to hostile, lowest influence in the system, they sent ships after me, kept killing them and getting no where, h.ell half the time when I went hunting the suckers in an RES' and they scanned me within a minute or two they were frame shift surging out of the area. Probably didn't get their total influence low enough to put 'em in retreat - hard work - interesting at first - eventually a repetitive and unsatisfying experience.

And besides when I say revenge I'm talking about wiping them out - which isn't an option in ED based on current game mechanics.

Revenge should be final. Just making the target suffer is temporary and leaves open the opportunity for them to retaliate - wiping them out is permanent with the benefit that the liklihood of retaliation is minimized. Met any Carthaginians lately?

NOTE: When I got tired of trying to wipe them out I posted a message asking if it were possible. The answer was a resounding no with many responses just like yours or very similar. In fact, Limoncello, I believe you posted to that thread yourself.

 

[Limoncello Lizard]

If we could wipe out factions, there might not be all that many left in the game.

Also. FD is quite happy with factions suffering rather than being destroyed, proving that they are merely sadistic rather than evil.

 

[Noob]

...would have been killing merchants. What the WWII subs did and did very well was killing merchant ships (traders). Were they bad guys for doing it? Nope - they were military men doing their duty and what was necessary to win the war.

This cries out the Godwin's law.

The fact that all sides did it doesn't change the nature of killing the unarmed non-combatants.

 

[Frank]

To me this smacks of Milgram's most famous experiment. It's good that the game gives you these morally ambiguous challenges and let's you play out how you respond to them. I responded like Hans v. Volldampf did sparing his deserter when I was told to kill innocents during the middle of a mission.

We are free individuals with the power to choose. If we can see that the orders we are given are morally... questionable, then we have the power to question them. If my boss ordered me to wrench children from their mothers then I have the ability to refuse. "I was only following orders" is not an excuse.

 

[Dizzy B High]

Really Nice post Werewolf.

I'm quite similar. Although I focus on combat, I never take missions involving killing civilians, traders, politicians and even deserters. Once, by mistake I took a deserter assassination mission, and already from far the guy was heard on the comms like "I just want to live in peace", "They won't make me do that ever again", and so on.

I could not do it. Silly, ain't?

No, I do not think so. It is not that your actions don't show your personality if it's just pixels you kill.

My respect, CMDR! o7

to
I took a few of these as linked follow up missions which had stacked from doing passenger runs in my Imperial Cutter in Upsilon Aquari.

When they started saying "It wasn't meant to be like this, it was a mistake" I felt a little sad for him, I thought about quitting all the missions, then i thought, all that going to happen is...

His life pod is gonna get picked up and he can start a new life. Maybe that new life will entail being an imperial slave or something but still they will have served their contract with whoever ordered me to kill them. They have the freedom they desired.

I have my Credits and Rep everyone went home happy.

I would prefer the linked in missions were of a higher value and related to the same kind of mission, ie if you do a passenger mission, the link mission should be a passenger mission, trade - trade etc.
It would allow people to continue a story without having to become a killer or fighter and vice versa, in fact i dont think i have ever seen a followup mission that doesn't involve death.

 

[kofeyh]

To me this smacks of Milgram's most famous experiment. It's good that the game gives you these morally ambiguous challenges and let's you play out how you respond to them. I responded like Hans v. Volldampf did sparing his deserter when I was told to kill innocents during the middle of a mission.

We are free individuals with the power to choose. If we can see that the orders we are given are morally... questionable, then we have the power to question them. If my boss ordered me to wrench children from their mothers then I have the ability to refuse. "I was only following orders" is not an excuse.

Note that during wartime, particularly WW1, refusing to comply with orders meant you were invariably immediately court-marshalled and shot; so that wasn't always a popular choice. It's also very easy to claim a thing, when said thing isn't happening directly to oneself. Also most squads operate on the entire notion that they support each other; including complying with orders that might be morally objectionable, to save one's own. War and conflict is messy. Painting that as anything other than a sea of grey is pretty ignorant of reality. I know enough to know I don't know jack and have precious little ground to stand on to take some sort of high-point, morality wise.

The game does provide morally ambiguous options, though. It does this intentionally, and offsets this with an insurance mechanic. A moral code is fine; so is following it. This is not the only path Frontier have offered, and it was always brave/ foolhardy of them to do so.

Also I don't think you can quite equate wrenching children from their mothers the same as triggering some pixels to vanish in a game, to be replaced with exact duplicates, for a small fee. So, less taking children, more destroying someone's sofa, and their insurance company popping another one into their lounge (with the associated excess fee). Weirdly, no children harmed.

The AI though? Few spare a thought for the endlessly dispatch-able, somewhat developmentally compromised little beggars that struggle with something as basic as getting behind a commander to interdict without pasting themselves across a star. The op gave them a bit more life in what they did. And thus value, and that gave them a reason to reject an offer. Good on 'em. That's pretty cool in my book.

Ships, otherwise have insurance. Commanders never die (we're effectively immortal, that's actually super convenient to be fair) and unless one is Billy (flying without rebuy) everything is replaceable. So the entire thing does sometimes need a bit of context when discussing actions, to be fair.

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

Here's the disconnect

They're not at war with the guys who sent me to take 'em out (at least not that I was aware of). Didn't make any sense.

They were military men doing their duty and what was necessary to win the war.

 

[lecorsobreton]

Or you could use a manifest scanner and look at their cargo. Do what you will with what you find?

 

[Shiro Akai]

A Little Background...

I play games for entertainment. I role play and get immersed in the story. Pretty much play all the games I own that way

That's what the games are for. Entertainment. I myself treat them as interactive books, well - RPGs and strategy ones. Or "what if" option for games like Civilization or Europa Universalis - it's super entertaining taking your own country and remaking your history. Once, in EU, I went all warmongering (and cheating, pure for fun playthrough) and conquered almost entire Europe.

Here's the important part of what is to come. In all that time no matter how hard I have tried I just cannot play the bad guy, can't play evil. The closest I come to it is playing a stealth character and even then I rarely use that game talent to steal though I do use it to asasinate bad guys. I've tried to be evil but invariably the good guy comes out and that role is slipped back into - never fails - always happens.

Generally speaking I'm the good one. If given the option to help or kick in the butt, I choose helping. But there are situations, stories or even whole games that revolve around being evil. And I can do it. Once upon a time there was (and still is) a game called: Star Wars The Old Republic MMO. I'm a huge SW fan and being able to play a lightsaber user was a dream come true (not mentioning other games from Jedi Knight series). So there you have 2 factions, "good" Republic and "evil" Empire. While playing Republic classes I went all good and valiant, with an exception of Smuggler - this one was like Han Solo, credits, my personal wealth. But overall it was rather good character - more morally gray but still on the Light side.

On the other hand, playing Empire classes I went bad. Reviewed military personel progress and found it lacking (due to circumstances outside of influence of said personel) - slashed because I'm a Sith and Sith doesn't like excuses. My Bounty Hunter was cold, heartless and merciless. Tracked the mission target and he begs for letting him go (I could let him go or kill him, doesn't influence the general outcome and mission success), I chose to kill him as that was primary objective - contract fulfilled. I got totally immersed into the character.

But being in similar situation while on Jedi character I would let him go. Also, as a contrast I have one Sith that is totally against Empire's way of life (strong rule the weak) and I have a Jedi who is a total (small Richard) - those characters and they approach give whole new perspective for the story.

But there are things that even I stay away and not commit into for the sake of roleplaying. Examples are: Fallout 1 & 2 and Postal. In Fallout you had true freedom (not like today "freedom" with limitations and restrictions because political correctness and other things). Ona particular thing come to mind - controversial as h.ell. Children killing. In original Fallout games you could commit such a crime. Consequence were "Childkiller" renown, massive Karma hit and instant "public enemy" tag meaning you were walking target for everyone. I tried it once just to see how it would influence the story - felt really bad and wrong while committing and shortly after I loaded previous save because of this. And for Postal - tried to play it but while being a teen back then (the times when you try to break as many rules you can and try as many controversions you can) it was so sick of a game I dropped it in disgust.

Roleplaying, adopting a character and such have its limits.

Getting on with the story...

This morning I decided to take one of the black ops missions offered to me. (...) kill 15 traders. (...) Just grit your teeth and move on.

(...) While traveling I thought about the mission, decided I'd be better off not taking any more of those and would abandon the one still active upon arrival - which I did. (...) Didn't care. Bad choices equals bad consequences.

I thought that was the end of it but after calling it quits for a break the thing still bugged me...

Yeah, this occurs when you force yourself into the style that doesn't suit you. For various reasons. As you stated in the beginning - games are an entertainment. Doing things that are not entertainment mean bad session. For you it's the "bad guy" approach, for me it's the PvP competitive FFA combat. I can do it but it doesn't give me joy.

Despite I can play as a "bad guy" there are still acts I avoid. I can be bad but to certain point behind which I'm not moving any further. It would mean playing against myself and that is no fun.

AND then it hit - that bolt of lightning referenced in the subject...

I served in Subs during my service in the US Navy. (...) What those guys did and what the boat I served on would have done if the balloon ever went up (...) would have been killing merchants. What the WWII subs did and did very well was killing merchant ships (traders). Were they bad guys for doing it? Nope - they were military men doing their duty and what was necessary to win the war. And that was real life not some silly space game.

Whoa! Now I could justify doing those types of missions, at least as long as they targeted an enemy - and being just a run of the mill pilot what the heck would I know about the backroom machinations of the leaders of a super power and a local faction. Take the job and do it.

In general it's your attitude that matters. You can be yourself and avoid such missions as being against your nature. You can be totally opposite - try something new, something you wouldn't do in real life (cruel dictator that massacre civilians, ruthless pirate that loot and pillage unarmed freighters, etc.) or you can assume a role. They want a combat pilot that hinder enemy war effort? Sure. Does it include killing civilian cargo freighters? That's the job (and role).

After all, ED's just a game. Shouldn't have to justify what I do in it but 57 years of habit are kind'a hard to break.

No, it's a good sign that you seek justification of your actions. It means that you are able to think wider and see more to the picture. How many gamers commit atrocities without a second thought, just because game's mission asked for it? "Remember, no Russian" before airport massacre in some shooter? Killing children in Fallout because they spotted you lockpicking door while you wanted to stay unnoticed? How many gamers truly considered their action and tried to act differently?

The fact that you analysed mission requirements, costs and impact means something. And I'm glad there are players who can see bit deeper. For that you get virtual nod of appreciation.

 

[Frank]

Note that during wartime, particularly WW1, refusing to comply with orders meant you were invariably immediately court-marshalled and shot;

Most of us are lucky to be living in enlightened times and societies. It is still possible to be ostracised for whistle blowing, especially it seems in the US. Frankly I don't know what I'd do if I was put into a situation which would compromise my morals. I'm glad that these decisions so far for me are just in videogames.

It doesn't matter what sort of dilemma we are talking about. Of course killing innocent people is worse than wrenching children away from their parents. But then both actions are still pretty evil.

Of course there is the idea that videogames are a form of escape from you normal life. And if I enjoy playing incredibly moralistic characters in them, then that is because it's to escape my evil nature in real life <grin>