Wolf (well thinks he is) in sheeps clothing.
I've seen your posts on other threads, ulterior motives are clear.
Another example of why trading needs some real risk
- Thread starter Darth Ender
- Start date
Wolf (well thinks he is) in sheeps clothing.
I've seen your posts on other threads, ulterior motives are clear.
digitalscream
Banned
I think it's pretty obvious that wings will completely defeat this particular train of thought. The time required to cool down and spool up the FSD (particularly if mass-locked) is easily enough for a pack of Vultures or FDLs to wipe out most trading ships, or even knock out the drive units on an Anaconda.
ciger
Banned
masslock is a joke, you can only masslock me if i want to be masslocked, and the best part is that this is by design and not a bug.
I'm sorry, but I don't hold to this "based on reality" argument at all. And not only that, but you are applying a double standard to my opinion.
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Do you play chess? You know the horsy guys, the Knights? They can only move in a very limited "L" shape pattern. Then you have the Queen, who is arguably the most dangerous piece on the board. How is that realistic? A queen is more dangerous than a Knight? It's not "realistic", but it IS good game design. Too often, people play the "realism" card as a cheap argument to prop up their point of view. I'm sorry, but good game design is more important than realism.
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On to your double standard. Your Freelancer example, you stated being powerful and killing fifty pirates in your stock ship ruined your fun because it was too easy. Yet in ED, we have trading in solo which poses no risk due to stupid and random NPC pirates. It is not difficult at all (read: easy) to amass a fortune (billions in a couple months) and get a trading rank of Elite. Then that fortune can be used to build a FOTM combat ship, which can be used to go into RES or Conflict Zones, to power up to Elite in Combat. Then that fortune can be used to build a FOTM exploration ship, which can be used to explore your way to Elite in Exploration.
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Who do you think gets triple Elite first: Someone that starts with Trading, or someone that starts with either Combat or Exploration? Yeah, so take your double standard and think on your perception of the game a bit.
+1 *lets pretend to be a trader and then moan about trading so it appears to carry more weight*
Exactly m8. My date of birth isn't 08/03/15
I have to disagree about the double standard. (Oh, and for the record, I'll probably end up making Elite in Exploration LONG before I ever make it in Combat or Trading)
Let me use a different analogy on you. You want to play a game set in the old west. Now, you KNOW that the Old West is not like that of the movies, but that romanticized view is what you want to play in. Showdowns at high noon, stagecoach robbery, gunfights, bar brawls and all the rest. You could make a game that gives you all that in rapid succession, and lets you experience a good storyline, but when it's done it's basically like having played a movie. Fair enough.
Let's say you want to "live" in that same old west. Really spend time in it. Well, if you don't want the strings to show you can't have EVERY stage coach getting attacked, or a showdown at high noon every day. Not every trip to the bar can result in a brawl. Now obviously you can't have such a game only deal with you branding cattle all day long, either (save it for Cattle Branding Simulator 2015). If it's going to feel like a real world, then more stagecoaches are going to have to arrive unattacked than attacked, otherwise why the heck do they keep coming? If there's a showdown at noon every day, where the heck is the sheriff? Etc...
What feels more "realistic" while playing it--a game where I am god of combat even though I'm flying an unmodified tub for the first time (Freelancer), or one where I have to play it safe and run away from pirates and hostiles until I can afford a ship or weapon loadout that will give me a better edge in combat?
One flaw in your argument is that you talked about trading in SOLO. That's a choice. If they make Triple Elite in Solo and that gives them a satisfying experience, well, that's them. I personally think they're missing out not playing Open.
If I'm using "realism" as a cheap argument then you are doing the same with "good game design" - because that's at least partially subjective. Is chess well designed? Yes, but not everybody likes chess, do they? There is a reason that even the most popular games have their detractors. Some people like Lego games, while others think Dark Souls is where its at. But both games work for their intended audiences. You have some games that are almost universally acknowledged as well designed and fun (Portal) while others are hopelessly broken and crap (Ride To Hell: Retribution), but there's a lot of room in between where there is no consensus.
If we're talking about risk vs reward maybe you can enlighten me what are the risks for pirates shooting at those dangerous shieldless Haulers/Type 6/Type7 with their cobras. Maybe tell me how dangerous it is for bounty hunters sitting at nav beacons and warzones tagging every reds with NPC helping them, or mining, tell me about those killer asteroids when mining in ED.
The truth is all professions in ED is easy and no risks. At least in trading you have the risk of getting knock back to sidewinder if you're dumb enough to forget insurance. At least you need some patience to find a good trade routes. Not to mention those dumbass traders playing in open, those are real risks.
If the reward really is correlated to risk then bounty hunting, pirating, smuggling, mining should all be making nothing because those "profession" have even less risk than trading.
The danger to pirates attacking low hanging fruit is in becoming wanted, the police response and the bounty on their head. Most of that can be remedied fairly easily after the fact but what it also risks is the loss of standing with the factions that the clean ships belong to if they're killing them vs stealing cargo. The fact that ED seems to focus mostly on just bounties is something I would like see changed. Losing standing would be a much more powerful motivator in making someone think before killing.
I dont really care to argue the merits of being a pirate, 1/3 of my income came from killing criminals, not being one so my suggestions regarding increasing fsd cooldown time would not benefit me in the hypothetical that I then immediately switch to a combat ship after this is implemented. There's no money in killing clean ships. Dont get hung up on pvp, even in open there is almost no chance for random pvp except in literally a handful of systems - which are easily avoidable.
Bounty hunting is not a no-risk profession since the only way to make it worth your time once you get to viper territory and beyond is by hunting ships bigger than yours or with fairly lethal loadouts. You pick your battles so you dont get killed, sure, but that doesn't mean you dont get surprised and end up taking damage or spending a significant amount of ammo that eats into your profits or even forced to withdraw. On top of that, there are clean ships and authority often around wanted ships and if a shot goes stray you are suddently the target of everyone. I guess that's easier than fsd'ing from one station, supercruising to another and docking and getting paid.
Combat professions force you into situations where you have to fight in order to make credits. The idea that this is in any way risk-free like trading is delusional. Even mining forces you to do your work in places that spawn bad guys that either force you to deal with them or force you to abandon your mining and go elsewhere.
2/3 of my income has been made trading, and much more will come from it this week. By trading, I can avoid all confrontation 100% of the time if I choose to. There is no chance my goods will be unwanted or suddenly become worthless at my destination station. There is no chance my effort of flying between two stations will result in me not getting paid. It is a guaranteed payout 100% of the time with absolutely no chance of anything bad happening to stop me. And for that my reward is higher than any other profession in which income is hardly guaranteed and where to get it you actually have to put yourself in harms way.
I only play in open. Trading is riskfree in open unless you dont want it to be. Going to solo or a private group just to trade is silly.
Unlike combat where the only way to reduce risk is to accept orders of magnitude lower pay, with trade I can be risk-free and my pay is not affected. On all levels trading in a gameplay perspective is broken. It's a mindless effort of repetition that offers no test of skill or in any way improves a skill useful to playing the game and then rewards you more than any other aspect of the game that does require and improve skills.
My Solution to fix trading so it is much better:
1. increase fsd cooldown timer to 30 seconds regardless of submission. You can still boost away but you have a much more realistic risk involved with having to survive for 30 seconds. This would not turn trading into forced combat, it just means the rabbit hole of safety is a bit further away if you choose to run.
2. The Market system need to be ditched. Instead the message board is revamped to work like a personal "for hire" node. Upon docking this node goes live and businesses and people with things that need to be done reach out to you specifically if you have the credentials they are looking for. Driven by the background simulation, businesses or people would ask you to transport or pick up goods at certain locations. The pay is proportional to the distance and amount of goods and time spent transporting it as well as if the destination or source is in low security / anarchy/ war states as well as the value of the goods and if they're illegal. - time taken as well as your reputation may have an effect on your pay.
In this way traders are not middle men filling demand from whatever source they feel like. Corporations and companies exist on stations and planetside and have standing relations and make new ones with other corporations and companies in the ED universe and traders get the products between them.
That's the kind of trading that I think would fit much better in the ED universe and in the game in general as it behaves with the other professions as it is much more flexible while at the same time not tipping the scales of profitability to soley depend on the size of your ship.
I dont really care to argue the merits of being a pirate, 1/3 of my income came from killing criminals, not being one so my suggestions regarding increasing fsd cooldown time would not benefit me in the hypothetical that I then immediately switch to a combat ship after this is implemented. There's no money in killing clean ships. Dont get hung up on pvp, even in open there is almost no chance for random pvp except in literally a handful of systems - which are easily avoidable.
Bounty hunting is not a no-risk profession since the only way to make it worth your time once you get to viper territory and beyond is by hunting ships bigger than yours or with fairly lethal loadouts. You pick your battles so you dont get killed, sure, but that doesn't mean you dont get surprised and end up taking damage or spending a significant amount of ammo that eats into your profits or even forced to withdraw. On top of that, there are clean ships and authority often around wanted ships and if a shot goes stray you are suddently the target of everyone. I guess that's easier than fsd'ing from one station, supercruising to another and docking and getting paid.
Combat professions force you into situations where you have to fight in order to make credits. The idea that this is in any way risk-free like trading is delusional. Even mining forces you to do your work in places that spawn bad guys that either force you to deal with them or force you to abandon your mining and go elsewhere.
2/3 of my income has been made trading, and much more will come from it this week. By trading, I can avoid all confrontation 100% of the time if I choose to. There is no chance my goods will be unwanted or suddenly become worthless at my destination station. There is no chance my effort of flying between two stations will result in me not getting paid. It is a guaranteed payout 100% of the time with absolutely no chance of anything bad happening to stop me. And for that my reward is higher than any other profession in which income is hardly guaranteed and where to get it you actually have to put yourself in harms way.
I only play in open. Trading is riskfree in open unless you dont want it to be. Going to solo or a private group just to trade is silly.
Unlike combat where the only way to reduce risk is to accept orders of magnitude lower pay, with trade I can be risk-free and my pay is not affected. On all levels trading in a gameplay perspective is broken. It's a mindless effort of repetition that offers no test of skill or in any way improves a skill useful to playing the game and then rewards you more than any other aspect of the game that does require and improve skills.
My Solution to fix trading so it is much better:
1. increase fsd cooldown timer to 30 seconds regardless of submission. You can still boost away but you have a much more realistic risk involved with having to survive for 30 seconds. This would not turn trading into forced combat, it just means the rabbit hole of safety is a bit further away if you choose to run.
2. The Market system need to be ditched. Instead the message board is revamped to work like a personal "for hire" node. Upon docking this node goes live and businesses and people with things that need to be done reach out to you specifically if you have the credentials they are looking for. Driven by the background simulation, businesses or people would ask you to transport or pick up goods at certain locations. The pay is proportional to the distance and amount of goods and time spent transporting it as well as if the destination or source is in low security / anarchy/ war states as well as the value of the goods and if they're illegal. - time taken as well as your reputation may have an effect on your pay.
In this way traders are not middle men filling demand from whatever source they feel like. Corporations and companies exist on stations and planetside and have standing relations and make new ones with other corporations and companies in the ED universe and traders get the products between them.
That's the kind of trading that I think would fit much better in the ED universe and in the game in general as it behaves with the other professions as it is much more flexible while at the same time not tipping the scales of profitability to soley depend on the size of your ship.
I think that really needs to be a complete reconsideration of the - well, the everything when it comes to economy as a whole. Things just feel so backwards in some areas, and it's like they clog up the system and makes everything feel nonsensical.
For trading: I think that the large population Independent Democracies, the Federal or Imperial cores, and the corporate hightech/industrial core systems should be extremely safe. Piracy here should be really rare, with very few NPC pirates, and very heavy security response (a very serious threat even to players).
However, when trading in these areas, you also compete with the bulk haulers and the interstellar trading companies/syndicates. The profit margins should be small or even nonexistant. You're an independent trader, at the mercy of the open commodity markets. Most of the other traders here aren't. There might be some profitable hauling missions, though, and you still can do profit from commodity trade.
Unsafe space limits the flow of goods: Independent traders that don't want to risk their skins don't go there, bulk traders are not equipped to defend themselves, and the hauling companies do not go there bedcause of business/political reasons. This obviously makes the prices more extreme: Imported goods become more expensive, exported ones cheaper. This means more profit! Of course, security here would generally be pretty bad, and pirates tough. Frontier worlds, independent dictatorships and such places are bad but not extreme. Anarchies can be really nasty, but this is were you'll probably get the best prices, not to mention the... special assortment of goods that generally is available for sale.
I also think that the price of all trading goods should be scaled upwards: Especially goods like Gold or Palladium should be really expensive. It's pretty ridicilous right now, how every player who does large scale trading just trades in Palladium, Tobacco and other goods like that. Filling a several hundred tonne hold with goods like this should IMO not just be a huge investment, it should also attract special attention.
Doing this would also make piracy more profitable.
Bounties should be considerable. Upon getting killed in such a way that someone collects your voucher, you should have to repay the value of that voucher before you pay insurance. This also solves bounty exploits.
Wiping your bounties should be a lot more expensive. Wiping your bounty should not be something that a pirate generally does. If bounties get extreme enough, you might have to do more things than just paying money to wipe your bounty.
Even assault bounties should be large enough that you can't profit from piracy if you wipe your bounties. I really think this is killing the bounty hunter vs pirate game right now: Pirates wipe their bounties.
It's pretty ridicilous really.
For trading: I think that the large population Independent Democracies, the Federal or Imperial cores, and the corporate hightech/industrial core systems should be extremely safe. Piracy here should be really rare, with very few NPC pirates, and very heavy security response (a very serious threat even to players).
However, when trading in these areas, you also compete with the bulk haulers and the interstellar trading companies/syndicates. The profit margins should be small or even nonexistant. You're an independent trader, at the mercy of the open commodity markets. Most of the other traders here aren't. There might be some profitable hauling missions, though, and you still can do profit from commodity trade.
Unsafe space limits the flow of goods: Independent traders that don't want to risk their skins don't go there, bulk traders are not equipped to defend themselves, and the hauling companies do not go there bedcause of business/political reasons. This obviously makes the prices more extreme: Imported goods become more expensive, exported ones cheaper. This means more profit! Of course, security here would generally be pretty bad, and pirates tough. Frontier worlds, independent dictatorships and such places are bad but not extreme. Anarchies can be really nasty, but this is were you'll probably get the best prices, not to mention the... special assortment of goods that generally is available for sale.
I also think that the price of all trading goods should be scaled upwards: Especially goods like Gold or Palladium should be really expensive. It's pretty ridicilous right now, how every player who does large scale trading just trades in Palladium, Tobacco and other goods like that. Filling a several hundred tonne hold with goods like this should IMO not just be a huge investment, it should also attract special attention.
Doing this would also make piracy more profitable.
Bounties should be considerable. Upon getting killed in such a way that someone collects your voucher, you should have to repay the value of that voucher before you pay insurance. This also solves bounty exploits.
Wiping your bounties should be a lot more expensive. Wiping your bounty should not be something that a pirate generally does. If bounties get extreme enough, you might have to do more things than just paying money to wipe your bounty.
Even assault bounties should be large enough that you can't profit from piracy if you wipe your bounties. I really think this is killing the bounty hunter vs pirate game right now: Pirates wipe their bounties.
It's pretty ridicilous really.
This. Clearly OP has not had his T7 blown up without so much as a "Hello, Welcome to death" message. Some traders just get lucky or are savvey enough to avoid the trouble. Trading in open is a roll of the dice IMO, and doesn't need to be made more difficult or easier. I think the devs have got it right. Traders need to be cautious and pirates need to be, well, pirates I guess. Perhaps 1.2 will see the tide change for this particular cat and mouse game.
It takes roughly what 11-12 seconds from interdiction ending to being back in Super cruise assuming you have a 10 second cooldown. There aren't many weapon loadouts that will kill the shields to a T7 even class 3 in that amount of time. This on top of the fact that npcs rarely begin reacting to you boosting away immediately. Human players aren't even worth talking about - even in open because there's a few thousand systems in the game and finding one that barely if ever sees another CMDR besides you is _easy_. If you're occasionally interacting with human pirates, you're either doing it on purpose or you enjoy making poor choices.
My T7 is mint condition, still has that new ship smell. It will be mint condition as I trade my way to a python and beyond unless something drastic happens along the way to make trading actually risky.
edit: I've done nearly 30 million in trading - most of that has now been done in my t7. I do two back to back turbos and then switch full power over to system which lets me nearly insta charge my fsd. It's hard to imagine this not being a guaranteed way to always work since your opponent will always be playing catch-up since they have to face you and by then it's too late to do any killing blows.
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Fix penalties for murder with rep damage that sticks and show up. In addition to bounty. Then i agree fix submission etc.
I dont submit as i think its gamey (cept if im going to fight).
The problem is piracy is way to carebeary. Make repercussions. Make some good defence for traders. Otherwise you have shooting fish in a cup (not even a barrel).
Make piracy less carebear with rep hits n i back ur call all the way.
I dont submit as i think its gamey (cept if im going to fight).
The problem is piracy is way to carebeary. Make repercussions. Make some good defence for traders. Otherwise you have shooting fish in a cup (not even a barrel).
Make piracy less carebear with rep hits n i back ur call all the way.