Anti-Botting Agreement

Lots of downsides for sure, but it would solve the issue (such as it is) of paranoia over bad actors hiding in solo/group. I don't think an open only BGS misses the point of the BGS, it's just not how it was implemented.
I'd argue implementation and "the point" are innately coupled, but semantics. You can't stop people using something in a way it was never intended to be used[1], but that use doesn't change the intended purpose.

[1] Well, you can legislate, but that's not really relevant here :)
 

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Maybe they haven't attached themselves because that's a terrible idea which should never be implemented, and fundamentally misses the point of the BGS?
"the point of BGS" was already fundamentally lost some time ago. You can see that when they permitted players to insert PMFs with custom flavour text to attach to, when they implemented the option of direct influence rewards for missions, and when they made BGS domination integral to the goals of power play groups to ensure they have the correct government types to secure their command capital balance.

Not to mention all the times the BGS activities get thrown off a cliff during an update that breaks everything - just look at how poorly implemented the effect of Odyssey missions were on faction influence, especially anarchy. Nowadays BGS is just a hunk of meat they occasionally shock with electric probes to see what happens.

Personally, in a serious conversation, my preference would have been for heavily open weighted BGS rewards. That way, if you're doing something unopposed or if it's just aggregated ambient data then it doesn't matter what mode you're in. But if you're engaging in BGS for the purpose of pursuing conflict, whether directly BGS or for power play goals, you're significantly incentivised and rewarded to do it in open if you meet opposition. That would split the difference of maintaining the original function of BGS, whilst properly supporting how it works as space chess. The people that are such staunch opponents of any open BGS discussion fullstop tend to relegate such arguments into the same box and strawman them away all the same.

What does it matter, Frontier will no sooner implement any change to open-implemented BGS, than they will do anything meaningful to satisfactorily demonstrate that they're taking botting seriously. This entire thread is hot air regardless of who's talking.
I'd argue implementation and "the point" are innately coupled, but semantics. You can't stop people using something in a way it was never intended to be used[1], but that use doesn't change the intended purpose.

[1] Well, you can legislate, but that's not really relevant here :)
If a game developer implements something and an entire community engage with it in a different and unexpected way, building player groups numbering collective membership in the thousands with the sole purpose of interacting with that mechanic in a way that wasn't originally intended, the sensible developer recognises that dogmatic adherence to the original intended implementation isn't adequate and that they need to develop and grow how those mechanics work to meet the needs of how they're used in practise.
 
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Personally, in a serious conversation, my preference would have been for heavily open weighted BGS rewards. That way, if you're doing something unopposed or if it's just aggregated ambient data then it doesn't matter what mode you're in. But if you're engaging in BGS for the purpose of pursuing conflict, whether directly BGS or for power play goals, you're significantly incentivised and rewarded to do it in open if you meet opposition. That would split the difference of maintaining the original function of BGS, whilst properly supporting how it works as space chess. The people that are such staunch opponents of any open BGS discussion fullstop tend to relegate such arguments into the same box and strawman them away all the same.
Most suggestions I see on the matter tend to be dumb things like flat rate "solo counts half" or some nonsense instead of having it weighted according to the relative traffic. There's no point in applying weighting to actions that are unopposed - my little stint last summer way out in the sticks at the bottom of the bubble, for instance, wouldn't have mattered what mode I was in as the majority of the time I was the only ship on the traffic report.

That and there's the question of exactly which transactions are actually something that could be meaningfully opposed - murders for sure if they catch you, but if you're doing your murdering in a signal source there's no way for anyone to actually intercept you. Bounty hunting? I guess you could be tracked down if they check the res sites and beacons. Not all that many missions have the actual meat of the mission take place in the system you're working in.
The only situation (and, oddly enough, the one that gets people most riled up) where people are in the same location trying to directly oppose each other is... war states. I would be all for weighting the effects of CZ victories so that people are at a disadvantage grinding in solo against people they don't want to face in open, and an open war is the one situation where I'd say getting shot at by other players is a case of "you can't call this grief, you're literally in a warzone, you're gonna get shot at".

Not that weighting CZs is particularly necessary against bots since combat is the one thing they can't just weight-of-numbers away.
 
Most suggestions I see on the matter tend to be dumb things like flat rate "solo counts half" or some nonsense instead of having it weighted according to the relative traffic. There's no point in applying weighting to actions that are unopposed - my little stint last summer way out in the sticks at the bottom of the bubble, for instance, wouldn't have mattered what mode I was in as the majority of the time I was the only ship on the traffic report.

That and there's the question of exactly which transactions are actually something that could be meaningfully opposed - murders for sure if they catch you, but if you're doing your murdering in a signal source there's no way for anyone to actually intercept you. Bounty hunting? I guess you could be tracked down if they check the res sites and beacons. Not all that many missions have the actual meat of the mission take place in the system you're working in.
The only situation (and, oddly enough, the one that gets people most riled up) where people are in the same location trying to directly oppose each other is... war states. I would be all for weighting the effects of CZ victories so that people are at a disadvantage grinding in solo against people they don't want to face in open, and an open war is the one situation where I'd say getting shot at by other players is a case of "you can't call this grief, you're literally in a warzone, you're gonna get shot at".

Not that weighting CZs is particularly necessary against bots since combat is the one thing they can't just weight-of-numbers away.
Not even to go near the fact the entire BGS is inherently imbalanced anyway. An open only bgs would be proverbial in the river in terms of effect compared to issues like:
  • major imbalances between faction types, with anarchy and authoritarian at opposite ends of the scale.
  • major imbalances of ability to cause positive effects vs negative effects
  • major imbalances in economy and asset effects.
... just to moot a few points of many.

Bots are simply an unfair advantage in an inherently unfair system not designed to be competitive. FD recognised this when they ditched the concept of powers rising and falling from factions, and undoubtedly why they don't expend too much effort on bots wrt the impact on the BGS. When the system is not designed to be fair or competitive, why police something that is functionally unfair?
 
If only FD put time into Powerplay rather than the BGS- maybe that was the original intention? Have a state machine for background and a more punchy and visible territory sim.

But the BGS will eventually drive you mad. I have a term 'gardening' where BGS players wind up becoming obsessed with a system that does not love them back. As @Bigmaec points out its a real fun killer as life revolves around joyless bucket filling.
 
If only FD put time into Powerplay rather than the BGS- maybe that was the original intention? Have a state machine for background and a more punchy and visible territory sim.

But the BGS will eventually drive you mad. I have a term 'gardening' where BGS players wind up becoming obsessed with a system that does not love them back. As @Bigmaec points out its a real fun killer as life revolves around joyless bucket filling.
I have a pyracantha in my back garden that grows faster than will fit in the brown bin in between collections and I hate it and want to rip it out at the roots so gardening is a very appropriate term
 
I have a pyracantha in my back garden that grows faster than will fit in the brown bin in between collections and I hate it and want to rip it out at the roots so gardening is a very appropriate term
Its why I hate the BGS in this case- its just collecting systems and tending them, while those systems provide no real benefits back. If only they took the expansion / retreat of the BGS and melded it with Powerplays bonuses and it would be much better- you can 'just play', holding systems then benefits you via bonuses and it just works.
 
Its why I hate the BGS in this case- its just collecting systems and tending them, while those systems provide no real benefits back. If only they took the expansion / retreat of the BGS and melded it with Powerplays bonuses and it would be much better- you can 'just play', holding systems then benefits you via bonuses and it just works.
This.
I only really got into the BGS (and fought for it) when there was a special circumstance (Carcosa and it's Alliance and Fed ships).

Every other system I frankly don't care if it belongs to the 4567th Armada of doom, the International Fascists Union or the Bavarian Beer Brewers,
because It. Doesn't. Matter. Which. Name. The. PMF. Has, when all else is same same.
 
This.
I only really got into the BGS (and fought for it) when there was a special circumstance (Carcosa and it's Alliance and Fed ships).

Every other system I frankly don't care if it belongs to the 4567th Armada of doom, the International Fascists Union or the Bavarian Beer Brewers,
because It. Doesn't. Matter. Which. Name. The. PMF. Has, when all else is same same.
If only different government types had literally any difference between them aside from which commodities are illegal and whether or not they have black markets.

Like certain actions being not a crime in some juridictions, a fine in others, and a bounty in others still - like a nice cooperative type government making commodities notionally "illegal" in that they're not sold in the commodities market but they also don't fine you for having them on board, while a dictatorship may well skip the fines and shoot you on sight if they catch you smuggling, that sort of thing.
 
If only different government types had literally any difference between them aside from which commodities are illegal and whether or not they have black markets.

Like certain actions being not a crime in some juridictions, a fine in others, and a bounty in others still - like a nice cooperative type government making commodities notionally "illegal" in that they're not sold in the commodities market but they also don't fine you for having them on board, while a dictatorship may well skip the fines and shoot you on sight if they catch you smuggling, that sort of thing.
Madness. As preposterous as asking for system states to have noticeable effects.
 
Madness. As preposterous as asking for system states to have noticeable effects.
<cough> Negative states causing Power Restore missions say "hi" :) (Which it seems 90+% of players fail to work out and then grumble they can't find any.)

I'd kinda like more effect from system states, but then I look at all the threads explaining how IF are only in Low Sec and Anarchy, and that systems can change state so the IF can actually disappear and the game isn't bust ....
 
<cough> Negative states causing Power Restore missions say "hi" :) (Which it seems 90+% of players fail to work out and then grumble they can't find any.)

I'd kinda like more effect from system states, but then I look at all the threads explaining how IF are only in Low Sec and Anarchy, and that systems can change state so the IF can actually disappear and the game isn't bust ....
Sure, though I'd argue the effects should be more stark and noticable. Mission offerings between "None" and "Famine" are wildly different. Mission offerings between "None" and "Drought" are not. But that's just state. Government and economy should have more substantial effects than they currently do.

WRT IF disappearing... I'd argue it's because the current system is so homogenous, that when there is an outlier event like that, it's not expected. The game doesn't put the consideration of these things to the fore except in the most niche of circumstances. If it was the status quo, it would be much more readily accepted.
 
Does anybody know who one would contact at FD if they thought that a player faction might be using botting (e.g. like every week they took over a new system and now 'owned' 100+ systems)?

Would it be a CM or some other FD contact point?
 
 
It takes two weeks for a faction to complete an expansion cycle and about a week to flip a system, and most systems stay flipped provided nobody actively works against them. So, on its own, flipping one system a week isn't that suspicious. It takes four years to expand to 100 systems, so it requires a great deal of long term time investment. A single commander could flip one system a day, if they put their mind to it, on average.
 
It takes two weeks for a faction to complete an expansion cycle and about a week to flip a system, and most systems stay flipped provided nobody actively works against them. So, on its own, flipping one system a week isn't that suspicious. It takes four years to expand to 100 systems, so it requires a great deal of long term time investment. A single commander could flip one system a day, if they put their mind to it, on average.
I can concur with that. When I was out in the sticks, admittedly working to flip to a government type rather than relying on expansions, I had multiple wars going simultaneously and one time I flipped five systems in a single day by lining all the balls up right. Admittedly it took a lot of slow-burn work to set that up and it was a while before I had anywhere near that much stuff going on at once, but it's definitely possible.
I can't say the same would have happened if there were any other traffic, mind.
 
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