AoE weapons and CC...

Was thinking about an old wow encounter while responding to another thread, and that got me thinking how a super tough fight in WoW compares to a super tough fight in Elite.

In Elite a hard encounter is usually made hard by the quantity and equipment level of NPC enemies. Personally, in the FAS, I can handle any of the following combinations... 2 elite anything at the same time, even corvettes, Annies, no problem. 1 big ship and 2 small ships, no problem. Up to 4 small ships, no problem. It's when the numbers start ramping up that no amount of skill will help, you simply can't stayout of everyone's weapons arc at the same time and still do effective DPS.

In WoW a hard encounter is made hard by mechanics. Extra enemies come in the middle of the fight, in this way, it is similar to Elite, or certain players get disabled temporarily at a time when everyone has to move together, etc etc.

In WoW and other MMOs, we are given tools to deal with this, roots which hold enemies in place, temporary invulnerability on a very long cooldown, etc etc.

And I got to thinking... Where is our crowd control? How can a small ship get to feel like a true ninja and take on, say, 10 enemies and win? Only with CC and area of effect attacks. Some quick examples of how I see this potentially working in Elite...

EMP - Obvious really, a 500m area of effect attack on a very long cooldown (10 minutes), that disables all ships it comes into contact with for 10 seconds.
ElectroMagnetic munitions - If you have an EM special on your weapon, each time you hit the enemy you add to a stack of 'EMP overload', each stack decays after 5 seconds. When 5 stacks is reached, the next shot has the same effect as described above, the enemy is disabled for exactly 10 seconds. Electronic Countermeasures, if activated while having 5 stacks, will reduce the disabled time by 60%.
Gravity Bomb - Another pulse type weapon that sends a bubble of extreme gravity out of your ship which repels enemy ships (sends them flying across the abyss out of control). This will buy you a few seconds on a particular target while the others try to get back to you.
Plasma bomb - Simply does decent damage to every ship within a kilometer.
Ablative energy armor - A special energy based armor that increases hardness by 100% temporarily to cope with heavy damage from multiple wing mates while taking out the main target.
Purge Energy Banks - removes all effects on you immediately, recovers 20% of nominal shield strength and provides a 50% hardness bonus for 15 secs. Half an hour cooldown.

I might post more ideas as they come to me...

On the subject of balance, don't forget that these would be difficult to use in CZs and RESes, without attracting more attention than you might like. That is also why I want to have the EMP effect applicable on a single target (EM munitions for say, railguns and PAs) as well as on multiples (AoE EMP bomb)

That kind of stuff. Let;s hear your ideas for crowd control and AoE attacks that might be doable (and feasible in canon) in Elite to help with those multiple contact situations. :)
 
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Sorry Aashenfox, are you suggesting ED actually implements roles? You know,actual multiplayer content?

Heaven forbid!

Well... Note I was careful to refer to pve uses, but yeh, since you wanna open that little can o worms, yeh, it would certainly make wing play and PvP combat a lot more interesting, too! ;)
 
Well... Note I was careful to refer to pve uses, but yeh, since you wanna open that little can o worms, yeh, it would certainly make wing play and PvP combat a lot more interesting, too! ;)

Why does everyone assume multiplayer=PvP?

Or has there been a change recently and we've been banned from winging up against NPCs?
 
Why does everyone assume multiplayer=PvP?

Or has there been a change recently and we've been banned from winging up against NPCs?

OK OK, I hear ya. I still find it's best to get possible misunderstandings out of the way, even if context is missing. ;) Call it a preemptive strike! Of course I am in complete agreement on both aspects.
 
These ideas pop up every once in a while. They are always just as terrible as they were the last time.

Drag Munitions specials and magic healing lasers are already nonsense enough, we seriously don't need to go even stupider.

If you want to play WoW, play WoW. Don't try to make unrelated games into it.

I have no major problems with area weapons, but putting them into the game so that small-ship pilots can feel like "ninjas" and take on multiple opponents is very wrongheaded.

A player should feel skilled because of their skill, not because they have the "skill" of reading a forum thread or fansite and copying someone else's template. The game already goes too much into fights being determined by specialized loadout, and it should move away from that, not farther towards it.

And, for whatever it might be worth, I say that as a long-time WoW player, from day-one of Vanilla to Warlords, old-school PvP'er, progression-raider, raid healer in Vanilla and one of my guild's main tanks from BC through Pandaria.

WoW was fun, probably still is. Not everything needs to be WoW.
 
AoE: See →OP, →stacking, →imba.

CC: Making other people not play the game, mostly degenerates into either a power fantasy or something that's not worthwhile doing over just Moar Damage™. (See →Stealth for a discussion.)
 
Small ships shouldn't be able to kill big ships period.

The fact that I can take my shieldless DBS and murder an Anaconda is already ridiculous enough without there being the possibility of CC'ing or otherwise applying special effects to~ oh, wait. I can already do all of that.
 
These ideas pop up every once in a while. They are always just as terrible as they were the last time.

Drag Munitions specials and magic healing lasers are already nonsense enough, we seriously don't need to go even stupider.

If you want to play WoW, play WoW. Don't try to make unrelated games into it.

I have no major problems with area weapons, but putting them into the game so that small-ship pilots can feel like "ninjas" and take on multiple opponents is very wrongheaded.

A player should feel skilled because of their skill, not because they have the "skill" of reading a forum thread or fansite and copying someone else's template. The game already goes too much into fights being determined by specialized loadout, and it should move away from that, not farther towards it.

And, for whatever it might be worth, I say that as a long-time WoW player, from day-one of Vanilla to Warlords, old-school PvP'er, progression-raider, raid healer in Vanilla and one of my guild's main tanks from BC through Pandaria.

WoW was fun, probably still is. Not everything needs to be WoW.

Just because I cite WoW does not mean I want to turn Elite into WoW and my OP does not even hint that this is what I want to do. I contributed heavily to paladin tanking at Elitist Jerks, I understand mechanics, and last time I checked, math and mechanics were not the exclusive domain of World of Warcraft. You ever played STO?
 
Small ships shouldn't be able to kill big ships period.

The fact that I can take my shieldless DBS and murder an Anaconda is already ridiculous enough without there being the possibility of CC'ing or otherwise applying special effects to~ oh, wait. I can already do all of that.

What? lol. I guess you'd probably like Microsoft Stamp Collecting Simulator then, it's very realistic and not fun at all!!

Something like the Vulture should most definitely be able to have serious fun with big ships.

Yes indeedy. The Vulture was specifically designed for taking out large ships, there is no other reason to fit two large hardpoints to a small ship, it's to balance the hardness of large hulls vs medium and small weapons.
 
Just because I cite WoW does not mean I want to turn Elite into WoW and my OP does not even hint that this is what I want to do. I contributed heavily to paladin tanking at Elitist Jerks, I understand mechanics, and last time I checked, math and mechanics were not the exclusive domain of World of Warcraft. You ever played STO?

It's just that abilities such as the ones you describe would push elite into a realm akin to many MMOs out there with CC spam, rotations, focus on groups, etc. Doesn't sound like elite. Admittedly, neither do many of the special effects we currently have either.

Just flying effectively in combat can be annoying enough without managing all this extra complexity. Most games with stuff like this have very basic movement systems. Elite is more complex in that area. I really would like some AoE weapons though.
 
Just because I cite WoW does not mean I want to turn Elite into WoW and my OP does not even hint that this is what I want to do. I contributed heavily to paladin tanking at Elitist Jerks, I understand mechanics, and last time I checked, math and mechanics were not the exclusive domain of World of Warcraft. You ever played STO?

STO as far as I recall was part of the WoW clone generation with it’s own space based spin. Heck, even EvE seemed to have some of the mechanics of the most popular MMORPG of that generation.
Healer, Tank, DPS, CC, AOE all made popular by MMORPGs such as WoW, EQ, GW.
Does not mean these are the only mechanics. Elite seems to be trying to get away from the “WoW” mechanics but players seem to want to pull it back in. And use things like group/wing play where each person is pigeonholed into a “role” as a reason to suddenly give weapons special powers.
There already seem to be some AOE weapons I believe such as the mines. And there are the heal beams. We have EMPs but they work on weapons. But I don’t think we are going to turn ships into chickens any time soon.
 
OP, if you like theorycrafting with complex cc and aoe, with different kinds of buffs. Go play Eve, frankly I cant see this coming to ED on such level as for example here:

[video=youtube;XrYe_4vHzgE]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XrYe_4vHzgE[/video]
 
Was thinking about an old wow encounter while responding to another thread, and that got me thinking how a super tough fight in WoW compares to a super tough fight in Elite.

In Elite a hard encounter is usually made hard by the quantity and equipment level of NPC enemies. Personally, in the FAS, I can handle any of the following combinations... 2 elite anything at the same time, even corvettes, Annies, no problem. 1 big ship and 2 small ships, no problem. Up to 4 small ships, no problem. It's when the numbers start ramping up that no amount of skill will help, you simply can't stayout of everyone's weapons arc at the same time and still do effective DPS.

In WoW a hard encounter is made hard by mechanics. Extra enemies come in the middle of the fight, in this way, it is similar to Elite, or certain players get disabled temporarily at a time when everyone has to move together, etc etc.

In WoW and other MMOs, we are given tools to deal with this, roots which hold enemies in place, temporary invulnerability on a very long cooldown, etc etc.

And I got to thinking... Where is our crowd control? How can a small ship get to feel like a true ninja and take on, say, 10 enemies and win? Only with CC and area of effect attacks. Some quick examples of how I see this potentially working in Elite...

EMP - Obvious really, a 500m area of effect attack on a very long cooldown (10 minutes), that disables all ships it comes into contact with for 10 seconds.
ElectroMagnetic munitions - If you have an EM special on your weapon, each time you hit the enemy you add to a stack of 'EMP overload', each stack decays after 5 seconds. When 5 stacks is reached, the next shot has the same effect as described above, the enemy is disabled for exactly 10 seconds. Electronic Countermeasures, if activated while having 5 stacks, will reduce the disabled time by 60%.
Gravity Bomb - Another pulse type weapon that sends a bubble of extreme gravity out of your ship which repels enemy ships (sends them flying across the abyss out of control). This will buy you a few seconds on a particular target while the others try to get back to you.
Plasma bomb - Simply does decent damage to every ship within a kilometer.
Ablative energy armor - A special energy based armor that increases hardness by 100% temporarily to cope with heavy damage from multiple wing mates while taking out the main target.
Purge Energy Banks - removes all effects on you immediately, recovers 20% of nominal shield strength and provides a 50% hardness bonus for 15 secs. Half an hour cooldown.

I might post more ideas as they come to me...

On the subject of balance, don't forget that these would be difficult to use in CZs and RESes, without attracting more attention than you might like. That is also why I want to have the EMP effect applicable on a single target (EM munitions for say, railguns and PAs) as well as on multiples (AoE EMP bomb)

That kind of stuff. Let;s hear your ideas for crowd control and AoE attacks that might be doable (and feasible in canon) in Elite to help with those multiple contact situations. :)

As an ex WoW player (main tank with warrior/druid/DK) I personally say no thanks. This is a space ship game, let it remain a space ship game
 
Just because I cite WoW does not mean I want to turn Elite into WoW and my OP does not even hint that this is what I want to do. I contributed heavily to paladin tanking at Elitist Jerks, I understand mechanics, and last time I checked, math and mechanics were not the exclusive domain of World of Warcraft. You ever played STO?

I gotta give some props to a fellow Pally-tank (I posted some on EJ too, and Maintankadin, started raidtanking in original Naxx), but when you start a thread by citing WoW, mention specific WoW mechanics, and then talk about importing those mechanics into Elite... Yeah, you already blatantly said that you want to import WoW mechanics into Elite, "hinting" is not required.

Regarding my comment about AoE, while I have no problem with it in theory (beyond what we already have; things like mines, frags, and flak), anything close to the scale mentioned in the OP would be totally nonsensical given the types of weapons we have. Fiction needs to stick to it's own built reality, and a small ship being able to carry, say, 2 torpedoes on a medium rack or a giant 1km-blast-radius bomb that does "decent" damage to everything it hits is not even mildly internally consistent.

I would be ok with such a weapon being in-game, but it should be something fired by stations or actual capital ships, not something a Viper pilot can do to feel cool.

More types of shield-potions, space-sheeping, and space-roots are not what this game needs. We already have everything we need to feel like a "ninja" - thrusters and a couple of hardpoints. If FD wants to improve combat, they need to dampen the impact of defensive module stacking and engineering/specials, not increase it.

There's plenty of room to grow multiplayer content, via expanding on and growing existing Elite-style mechanics. It's pretty easy to imagine larger group missions where traders need to make a dangerous supply run, or miners need to extract a special rare and high-value resource, or Search & Rescue-style players need to repair up a damaged megaship. Any one of these could have the difficulty upped so they also require convoys, defensive escorts, and/or interdictors in supercruise. For long time-scale missions, you could even toss in resupply ships and all the defensive planning and logistics that go along with that.

Take a "mine a unique resource from a large asteroid cluster" mission. You can use existing game mechanics to have an NPC faction that very much wants to get at this resource too, or just stop the players from getting it. You can have NPC's in supercruise around the Signal Source for it, interdicting players trying to get at it, requiring escorts. Have NPC's (jumping in at the fringes of the fight) attacking player miners there, requiring a player defense force and maybe even some dedicated player repair ships (one of the reasons shields probably shouldn't prevent all damage). If Elite had a ship-to-ship ammo reload mechanic or ship-to-ship module repair mechanic, you could add that in too. Have some NPC miners even, so the defending players need to juggle defense and driving off the other faction's miners.

That's just off the top of my head, but I think that's far more interesting, and far more in line with Elite, than sword-and-sorcery tropes imported into space for scripted "boss" fights.
 
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I gotta give some props to a fellow Pally-tank (I posted some on EJ too, and Maintankadin, started raidtanking in original Naxx), but when you start a thread by citing WoW, mention specific WoW mechanics, and then talk about importing those mechanics into Elite... Yeah, you already blatantly said that you want to import WoW mechanics into Elite, "hinting" is not required.

Regarding my comment about AoE, while I have no problem with it in theory (beyond what we already have; things like mines, frags, and flak), anything close to the scale mentioned in the OP would be totally nonsensical given the types of weapons we have. Fiction needs to stick to it's own built reality, and a small ship being able to carry, say, 2 torpedoes on a medium rack or a giant 1km-blast-radius bomb that does "decent" damage to everything it hits is not even mildly internally consistent.

I would be ok with such a weapon being in-game, but it should be something fired by stations or actual capital ships, not something a Viper pilot can do to feel cool.

More types of shield-potions, space-sheeping, and space-roots are not what this game needs. We already have everything we need to feel like a "ninja" - thrusters and a couple of hardpoints. If FD wants to improve combat, they need to dampen the impact of defensive module stacking and engineering/specials, not increase it.

There's plenty of room to grow multiplayer content, via expanding on and growing existing Elite-style mechanics. It's pretty easy to imagine larger group missions where traders need to make a dangerous supply run, or miners need to extract a special rare and high-value resource, or Search & Rescue-style players need to repair up a damaged megaship. Any one of these could have the difficulty upped so they also require convoys, defensive escorts, and/or interdictors in supercruise. For long time-scale missions, you could even toss in resupply ships and all the defensive planning and logistics that go along with that.

Take a "mine a unique resource from a large asteroid cluster" mission. You can use existing game mechanics to have an NPC faction that very much wants to get at this resource too, or just stop the players from getting it. You can have NPC's in supercruise around the Signal Source for it, interdicting players trying to get at it, requiring escorts. Have NPC's (jumping in at the fringes of the fight) attacking player miners there, requiring a player defense force and maybe even some dedicated player repair ships (one of the reasons shields probably shouldn't prevent all damage). If Elite had a ship-to-ship ammo reload mechanic or ship-to-ship module repair mechanic, you could add that in too. Have some NPC miners even, so the defending players need to juggle defense and driving off the other faction's miners.

That's just off the top of my head, but I think that's far more interesting, and far more in line with Elite, than sword-and-sorcery tropes imported into space for scripted "boss" fights.

You were a bit before me, I was very jealous of vanilla players who saw Burning Crusade fresh (I know it was a mess to start with), but BC was just EPIC content, I wish I'd done it at level 70 as I assume you did. I started at the bginning of WotLK, and was guildmaster of a top 400 in europe guild by the time cataclysm dropped. Good times. :) I also bear tanked a lot, but my tankadin was always my main, and in fact, over the years it was noted that the raid groupd had more faith in my pala tank, healers complained less, etc etc. :)

I agree we don't want space sheeping, invisibilty, teleporting or anything silly. I've transcended any one on one NPC encounter, I could now kill an Elite Corvette with a sidewinder, it would take 30 minutes plus, but I could do it, now I want to go to the next level, and the only way to do that is by using more skills. I already use all the tools available, I can get slightly better technically at turning fights, but some utility would raise my skill cap even more. I just want to be able to take on a large wing in a small ship, IF I have the skills, I don't want to bring rotations and all that, although a space based MMO using the trinity is something I would love.
 
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