Are bi-weave shields that good? Or are Prismatic just that bad? Comparison

[CMDR Byr Goefin]

What on earth is MJ guys?

MegaJoule.

One Kilowatt Hour, or about what a house uses, or 10 100w bulbs, is 3.6 MJs.

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Try that again with stacked shield boosters.

If you do, the BI-weaves fall behind in total power by 5% or so per stacked booster.

That said, I run them for PvE, where I don't need massive MJs if I am smart and manage my damage.
Pretty cool visually watching shields regenerate using Bi-weaves with 4 pips in shields.

 

[Zeeman]

Erm.. ??? You can't just add 4 random variables to get an overall figure to compare them - lower weight is a better, as is lower power consumption, so, by your methods, a 250T shield, with power draw of 250, and 0 recharge with 1mj would beat all those out... Really?

Z...

 

[Slack]

Erm.. ??? You can't just add 4 random variables to get an overall figure to compare them - lower weight is a better, as is lower power consumption, so, by your methods, a 250T shield, with power draw of 250, and 0 recharge with 1mj would beat all those out... Really?

Z...

Power draw of 250? So it would take 7 Anacondas put together to run this shield you speak of? And then you say it would beat out all the other shields? ... hmmm i wonder why?

 

[Zeeman]

Power draw of 250? So it would take 7 Anacondas put together to run this shield you speak of? And then you say it would beat out all the other shields? ... hmmm i wonder why?

Based on the figures i am seeing being used, yes, with just 1 MJ of actual shield power... That's my point. The comparisons are not right, it would add up to 501 in the stats, and yet be the most useless shield in existence....

The comparison method is WRONG.

To clarify...
--------------------Shield Mj------- Power Use----------- Weight-------- Recharge rate
Regular shields ---- 100 --------------100 -----------------100 --------------100 = 400
Biweave -------------78 -------------- 140 -----------------100 --------------150 = 468
Prismatic -----------118--------------- 60 -------------------50 --------------100 = 328
Z's useless shield---001---------------250------------------250---------------000 = 501

Point made?

Z...

 

[Dunkel Reynolds]

Your numbers doesn't tell the whole story because it really depends on the ship.

Prismatic favors shield-centric ships more (ships that have a high base shield rating as well as a higher size mounting for shield).

Imp Courier is a perfect example of this - as it is a shield-centric and only has 3 medium hardpoints (which doesn't require a lot of power for weaps) it is perfect for prismatic and makes it very tanky.

Bi-weave would've been terrible on a imp courier because the hull can't survive the shield being down and it doesn't have the firewpower to down something quick.

Can confirm...tried bi-weave on my Courier and it sucked hard. Went back to regular shields and its back to form.

Clipper is the opposite...no-weaves have been a game changer in a good way. With military bulkheads and only 2 C4 HRP, it's a whole new kind of awesome in PvE.

Don't have access to prismatics, but would definitely give them a shot in the Courier...that'd be epic...might ditch the shield booster for another chaff or something.

 

[SGT TickleFight]

Nice to see a post completely ignore any practical experience or application.

This ^^

It's like those that say a Python is more manueverable than a Clipper because a Clipper has a mobility of 2 and a Python has a mobility of 6...

The mass doesn't make the ship boost 40% slower or jump 40% less distance. The power usage can easily be mitigated by multi cannons. Play style is a huge factor here as well.

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Can confirm...tried bi-weave on my Courier and it sucked hard. Went back to regular shields and its back to form.

Clipper is the opposite...no-weaves have been a game changer in a good way. With military bulkheads and only 2 C4 HRP, it's a whole new kind of awesome in PvE.

Don't have access to prismatics, but would definitely give them a shot in the Courier...that'd be epic...might ditch the shield booster for another chaff or something.

They are most epic on the courier - it's shields are about the same as a kitted Python's...

 

[Slack]

Based on the figures i am seeing being used, yes, with just 1 MJ of actual shield power... That's my point. The comparisons are not right, it would add up to 501 in the stats, and yet be the most useless shield in existence....

The comparison method is WRONG.

To clarify...
--------------------Shield Mj------- Power Use----------- Weight-------- Recharge rate
Regular shields ---- 100 --------------100 -----------------100 --------------100 = 400
Biweave -------------78 -------------- 140 -----------------100 --------------150 = 468
Prismatic -----------118--------------- 60 -------------------50 --------------100 = 328
Z's useless shield---001---------------250------------------250---------------000 = 501

Point made?

Z...

Not not really your just making an invalid argument. Youre talking about an unrealistic shield that has the weight of a shield cell bank and basically uses almost no power. Of course it will skew the results. Thanks for coming out and throwing random numbers in the air.

 

[Zeeman]

Not not really your just making an invalid argument. Youre talking about an unrealistic shield that has the weight of a shield cell bank and basically uses almost no power. Of course it will skew the results. Thanks for coming out and throwing random numbers in the air.

Dude - your method is flawed! The argument illustrates a point - regardless if the shield exists or not.
For heavens\'s sake, if you can't see it...

You are using percentage numbers and just adding them up - the higher score wins - but less weight is BETTER than more weight. Less energy use is BETTER than more energy use - yet, greater weight and greater energy use will result in better scores... The overall relationship between shield power, recharge, energy use and weight is WAY more complicated than weight + energy use + shield strength + recharge speed.

If you can't see it, then, seriously, I can't explain it any better, and someone else will have to.

The.
Method.
Is.
Flawed.

Bump the power use of the prismatic to 100, and the weight to 100, and you end up ahead of the regular shields - yet, they are both NEGATIVE factors... So.. wouldn't it be better than the regular shields to begin with?

Z...

 

[CMDR Byr Goefin]

Can confirm...tried bi-weave on my Courier and it sucked hard. Went back to regular shields and its back to form.

Ran Bi-weave + 2 A0 boost all night in a Haz Rez, including taking on a Python and Vulture player. No boosters.
Until I collided with the Vulture while orbiting his friend in the python, I had shields and the Python did not.

Pity, killing a CMDR Python with a Bi-Weave Courier would have been epic.


The shields can perform.

 

[Slack]

greater weight and greater energy use will result in better scores.

Not true at all, greater weight and greater energy use will result in a lower score.

Bump the power use of the prismatic to 100, and the weight to 100, and you end up ahead of the regular shields - yet, they are both NEGATIVE factors..

I dont think you are reading the chart correctly, if you bump Prismatic to 100 you are saying its using less energy and if you bump the weight to 100 you are saying it weighs less than it does, youre basically saying it uses the same power and weights the same as a regular shield. Which are both POSITIVE factors and there fore would increase that shields overall score. But the fact is a Prismatic shield weights more and uses more power and therefore gets a lower score in both categories in proportion to its actual statistics vs a regular shield.

 

[Zeeman]

Not true at all, greater weight and greater energy use will result in a lower score.



I dont think you are reading the chart correctly, if you bump Prismatic to 100 you are saying its using less energy and if you bump the weight to 100 you are saying it weighs less than it does, youre basically saying it uses the same power and weights the same as a regular shield. Which are both POSITIVE factors and there fore would increase that shields overall score. But the fact is a Prismatic shield weights more and uses more power and therefore gets a lower score in both categories in proportion to its actual statistics vs a regular shield.

OK, I see, I did mistake that - my bad. Though, regardless, the relationship between the stats is still far more complex than a simple W+X+Y+Z. My previous example, no matter how unrealistic, proves it, because such a shield would have a real world value of "0". The results should probably be based more on MJ/MW, and MJ (charged)/second as 2 separate factors. It's very hard to combine those values as one overall number. Then we have overall power use and weight, which may or may not matter, depending on your ship and load out.

I commend your attempt at trying to figure out a simple way to compare, but, it's far from simple, and I'm not altogether sure it's possible to work all the factors down to a single number.

Z...

 

[Slack]

OK, I see, I did mistake that - my bad. Though, regardless, the relationship between the stats is still far more complex than a simple W+X+Y+Z. My previous example, no matter how unrealistic, proves it, because such a shield would have a real world value of "0". The results should probably be based more on MJ/MW, and MJ (charged)/second as 2 separate factors. It's very hard to combine those values as one overall number. Then we have overall power use and weight, which may or may not matter, depending on your ship and load out.

I commend your attempt at trying to figure out a simple way to compare, but, it's far from simple, and I'm not altogether sure it's possible to work all the factors down to a single number.

Z...

There is one big variable and thats how long the fight goes, which pilot is landing more shots ect.. I certainly cant predict those, but we do know a few things. If its a short fight, the Prismatic can quickly take out Bi-weave before 50% faster regeneration comes into play. But if the fight ever gets to a point where both ships have the same amount of shields the Bi-weave now has a clear advantage for the rest of the fight as it will also recover from losing shields 50% faster. You could say those stats are fairly balanced. One shield has 40% higher value, the other recharges 50% faster and comes back online 50% faster, its quite close. The trouble is when you start taking the other categories into consideration and you have to because they have an actual effect. Such as much lower power requirement on bi-weave now leaves you with more options, for example an extra SCB. Which would now give you a huge advantage in a fight that was quite balanced beforehand. Does it mean you will automatically win? No, but if both pilots were of equal skill, based on the numbers bi-weave should win every time.

Even weight, which im starting to think shouldnt be in the equation as it doesnt actually have any sort of effect on shields, I included it because if you are slightly faster you might be able to escape from a fight so it does give you a small advantage and is part of the shields statistics. Also maybe if you are slightly more agile, your opponent will land like 2% less shots on you over time. Its not a huge difference and quite irrelevant, but the jump range is effected as well, so again its another thing bi-weave does better and even though its not a factor in a fight, its still a benefit, after all we dont just fight 100% of the time, you also travel. And if a shield effects my jump range/handling/top speed, it should be included in its overall rating. If you want to know how well the shields perform from a pure combat perspective, only add the other 3 stats and you will still get the same result (although much closer in score), Prismatic would still be in last place, because it falls short in the other statistics.

Edit: To be honest I didnt really create the post to discuss which shield performs better, as I see a clear winner. What I'm confused about is why are Prismatic so hard to get? Why do I have to wait a week and do a bunch of running around, why does a Prismatic cost 77million when bi-weave are only 9m? Why arent these faction specific parts better than the common stuff? Nobody has answered that for me. Its in the last paragraph of my post, have a feeling most people got bored or confused before they got that far XD

 

[CMDR Byr Goefin]

Your weights are wrong. Prismatics weight MORE not less for the same class.

If you step the Prismatic down a level, such as 7A,7C(bi),6A(Pris) then they all weigh the same.

On an Anaconda this is no small thing, if you move from a 7A to a 7A prismatic, you lose about 1.5ly jump range.

Lastly, power draw is less for a 7A Bi-weave + A0 vrs just a 7A, which would mean the same effective shields for less
Standard 7A: 4.9 MW draw from Power Plant
Bi 7C + A0 = 3.5 + 1.2, or .2 savings

Not a lot on an Anaconda, but might make a big difference on a power constrained build.
On a smaller ship, like the Cobra, it is a .9 difference, which is almost a full MW, very significant on a 15.6MW A rated plant. More than enough to pay for an upgrade of a class 2 Pulse to a Beam if that is what you wanted.

 

[jgm]

Some people love the additional MJ that prismatic gives them, others love the reduced recharge time that bi-weave give them, others prefer sitting in the middle. Sometimes people like to put a lower-class prismatic and free up a higher-class slot. They're all valid options, and each has a place in the game.

 

[Slack]

Your weights are wrong. Prismatics weight MORE not less for the same class.

If you step the Prismatic down a level, such as 7A,7C(bi),6A(Pris) then they all weigh the same.

On an Anaconda this is no small thing, if you move from a 7A to a 7A prismatic, you lose about 1.5ly jump range.

Lastly, power draw is less for a 7A Bi-weave + A0 vrs just a 7A, which would mean the same effective shields for less
Standard 7A: 4.9 MW draw from Power Plant
Bi 7C + A0 = 3.5 + 1.2, or .2 savings

Not a lot on an Anaconda, but might make a big difference on a power constrained build.
On a smaller ship, like the Cobra, it is a .9 difference, which is almost a full MW, very significant on a 15.6MW A rated plant. More than enough to pay for an upgrade of a class 2 Pulse to a Beam if that is what you wanted.

You read the chart wrong.. dont worry youre not alone Probably my fault for making it confusing. Its based on points, I think your looking at it as actual weight. A regular shield is the base line which gets a 100 points (in every category). Because a Prismatic weights 50% more than a regular shield, it gets 50% less points in that category (50 points total). Basically anything over 100 means it performs better in that category vs a regular shield and anything bellow a 100 means it performs worse. How much better or worse is represented by the actual point values. So a score of 140 means it performs 40% better than a standard shield in that particular category.

 

[CMDR Byr Goefin]

You read the chart wrong.. dont worry youre not alone Probably my fault for making it confusing. Its based on points, I think your looking at it as actual weight. A regular shield is the base line which gets a 100 points (in every category). Because a Prismatic weights 50% more than a regular shield, it gets 50% less points in that category (50 points total). Basically anything over 100 means it performs better in that category vs a regular shield and anything bellow a 100 means it performs worse. How much better or worse is represented by the actual point values. So a score of 140 means it performs 40% better than a standard shield in that particular category.

Yes, mixing types of information like that is a crime against math and proper reporting metrics. But let us set that aside...

Still wrong.

A Prismatic weighs DOUBLE what a regular 7A or bi 7C does

 

[Cmdr. Numa]

I find all 3 shield types fairly balanced and have use for them all. BiWeave are great on combat ships that have a good base shield strength and mediocre powerplants. Most useful with bounty hunting, where you have time to let shields recharge between encounters, reduces downtime a lot. In a CZ however, or any other combat situations where there's no breathing room for recharge I prefer prismatics and SCBs. I also prefer them on ships with very low base shield values and no utility slots for a lot of boosters, a FAS may reach ~400MJ that way. Normal shields are sort of a filler now. I only really use them now if the MJ would drop too low with BiWeave but the build doesn't have enough power for prismatics. Last not least prismatics are totally excellent for trading/mining ships. The additional shield strength from a low internal slot without any SCBs on board is priceless.

 

[Slack]

Yes, mixing types of information like that is a crime against math and proper reporting metrics. But let us set that aside...

Still wrong.

A Prismatic weighs DOUBLE what a regular 7A or bi 7C does

Sorry meant to say it weights 100% more and therefore gets a 50% reduction in points. Its correct on the chart though.

 

[CMDR Byr Goefin]

In a CZ however, or any other combat situations where there's no breathing room for recharge I prefer prismatics and SCBs.

I do not understand this statement, even though I have seen it in action.

I must have a "Don't even THINK about shooting me" sign on my ship somewhere.

Or maybe it is the all black paintjob. "Hey man, don't shoot him, he is one bad mamma jammer. A guy has a paint job like that, you don't scratch it, he is gonna mess you up!"

Bi-weaves give me more than enough protection in anything but PvP against a competent pilot, or an incompetent one that rams. (well, I guess that is my fault, I should have not let him get that close)

The Courier not only stood up to a player in a python, it forced him to jump out for repairs.
Both ships were fitted for PvE, and there was a little disagreement over stealing kills, and he opened fire without warning, dropping my shields as I got out of range. They rebuilt, I zoomed back in as he was still chasing me, and did not lose them a second time.

Later, I failed to avoid his vulture wingmate as he went for round 2. Now that would have taken Prismatics to survive with shields intact. Still, the Infinite Edge did not let me down, I jumped out with more than half my hull.

 

[Thebadmf]

As others have stated your reasoning is a little flawed but, I understand your point. Forgive my lack of figures but I'm posting from an iPad.

Let's use a smuggling Asp as an example. Experience tells me that with this setup, I have on many occasions, only just got away with my shields intact. Bi-weave would have dropped and the lower mass wouldn't have given me enough speed to outrun my attacker. Therefore, despite the weight increase of the prismatic shield, because it's such a low class, it doesn't matter.

My trutter using bi-weave would more than halve its shield strength and again, I value my shields staying up with as much cargo as possible (and the cutter not handling like such pig). Difference in laden range is negligible so I don't care about the bi-weave regen.

Prismatic are very useful in many circumstances but, especially when one doesn't want to stick around to fight.