Are factions that disable black markets overpowered now?

[_trent_]

Not sure if this is an intentional 3.0 change or not, but I've noticed in local NPC-only systems that the factions that have no black markets in their stations seem to be outperforming similar factions that have them by a noticeable margin. This is particularly apparent in systems with a decent amount of traffic (100 ships per day or more).

For a long time, certain types of faction have automatically disabled any black markets in assets they control or take over which didn't seem to cause too much of an issue, but with loss-making trading seemingly nerfed and murder-hoboism now curtailed I'm starting to wonder if this 'perk' is a little overpowered in 3.0.x. We're seeing dictatorships and patronages rising and democracies/cooperatives/confederacies dropping in much the same way as superpower factions were overpowering independents when the superpower bounty system was first implemented.

Just curious to see if other players have noticed a similar trend in their local systems and what other players think about this.

 

[Ryan Murdoc]

Can't really comment on that. We notice no big difference in our Systems, in fact it's actually a bit harder then before to keep things up and running as an independent Dictatorship here.

 

[Marra Morgan]

Yes I believe they've always been overpowered and it makes little sense from a lore perpective.

Black markets should flourish where governments exert tighter control, so you would think that communists, corporate monopolies, dictatorships, prison colonies, theocracies and patronages would be more vulnerable to them, whereas the open markets of democracies and cooperatives would see little demand for them.

And yet, in the game it's the opposite. It's baffling and something I hope FDev looks at if and when they do the next pass of BgS balancing.

 

[_trent_]

Can't really comment on that. We notice no big difference in our Systems, in fact it's actually a bit harder then before to keep things up and running as an independent Dictatorship here.

Really? In what way is it more difficult now? I'm genuinely curious as to why you are finding it harder to keep your influence levels up..

From our perspective it seems that smuggling is more effective now, so factions that cannot be undermined by smuggling have an advantage. Perhaps something else has been changed that make it harder for such factions to gain influence to balance this up.

 

[irongut]

Since 3.0 Black Market sales increase the owning faction's influence, prior to theat they decreased it. Surely it would make logical sense for BM owning factions to be flourishing due to the 3.0 changes? As I see it 3.0 is a buff to Anarchy and BM owning factions.

 

[Starwolfe]

Since 3.0 Black Market sales increase the owning faction's influence, prior to theat they decreased it. Surely it would make logical sense for BM owning factions to be flourishing due to the 3.0 changes? As I see it 3.0 is a buff to Anarchy and BM owning factions.

That only effects Anarchies.

Black Markets should still be a negative to everything else.

 

[Mangal Oemie]

the only change with 3.0 indeed has been the change for anarchies. For others it is as it was before.

 

[Ian Doncaster]

Black markets should flourish where governments exert tighter control, so you would think that communists, corporate monopolies, dictatorships, prison colonies, theocracies and patronages would be more vulnerable to them, whereas the open markets of democracies and cooperatives would see little demand for them.

Though conversely dictatorships and feudals have relatively short illegal goods lists compared with democracies and theocracies, so I wouldn't necessarily call the democracy an open market.

 

[Ryan Murdoc]

Though conversely dictatorships and feudals have relatively short illegal goods lists compared with democracies and theocracies, so I wouldn't necessarily call the democracy an open market.

We only have one illegal good and that's Slaves. Anything else is a go here (Dictatorship / Independent).

 

[Jmanis]

Black markets should flourish where governments exert tighter control so you would think that communists, corporate monopolies, dictatorships, prison colonies, theocracies and patronages would be more vulnerable to them

Surely the exact opposite would be true?

I mean, yes, prices for goods in a dictatorship would be through the roof compared to a more "open" black market, but that's because it's a much riskier market, not because it's easier. A more authoritarian regime would stifle freedom of movement and crack down harder on disobedience, with much harsher penalties.

Think of it like this... let's make BM's appear for Dictatorships for example again. But where shipping illegal goods in a "corporate/political" environment might result in a fine only.... detection of illegal goods in a dictatorship should result in a bounty, docking privileges (for that attempt) revoked and the station opening fire (just like what happens if the station notices you're wanted).

 

[Ryan Murdoc]

Think of it like this... let's make BM's appear for Dictatorships for example again. But where shipping illegal goods in a "corporate/political" environment might result in a fine only.... detection of illegal goods in a dictatorship should result in a bounty, docking privileges (for that attempt) revoked and the station opening fire (just like what happens if the station notices you're wanted).

Making examples of those not abiding the law? Finds my approval

 

[Marra Morgan]

Think of it like this... let's make BM's appear for Dictatorships for example again. But where shipping illegal goods in a "corporate/political" environment might result in a fine only.... detection of illegal goods in a dictatorship should result in a bounty, docking privileges (for that attempt) revoked and the station opening fire (just like what happens if the station notices you're wanted).

I would love that! It would bring more flavour to the authoritarian govt types, and introduces more rewards, risks and consequences!

+1

(In fact, I would love to see it on the Suggestions forum if you have time to post!)

 

[Jmanis]

I would love that! It would bring more flavour to the authoritarian govt types, and introduces more rewards, risks and consequences!

+1

(In fact, I would love to see it on the Suggestions forum if you have time to post!)

Sadly, this

We only have one illegal good and that's Slaves. Anything else is a go here (Dictatorship / Independent).

... is the next problem. Arguably authoritarian systems should also be the opposite in this case... but maybe not too opposite, and therein is the problem.

Think about a very stereotypical dictatorship: Very little personal freedoms, leisure items considered distractions, and don't even go near recreational drugs, and very governmetn strict controls around the weapons industry... so you're looking at an illegal goods list covering:
- Most weapons
- Consumer Technology
- Beer, Liquor, Wine, Narcotics, Tobacco, Progenitor Cells etc
- Luxury Minerals (Taffeite, LTDs)
- Maybe even things like Tea and Coffee

Meanwhile, I'd perceive my own "Dictatorship" to be more like a military dictatorship, but with some more liberties around it (think something along the lines of service guarantees citizenship ) and a sinister streak of nationalism.

Towards that end, weapons, nerve agents etc are all on the table... but all drugs and medicines *except* basic medicines, combat stabilisers, tobacco and beer, would be off the table, as would slavery (though Imperial Slavery would be okie-dokie!).

Further still, some Authoritarian regimes could be very much like the current implementation, everything legal except a very short list of things. All are valid, but there's a lack of granularity to the game around that.

Personally, I'd love to see some sort of overhaul in the legality of goods resulting in some stark situations. The illegality of Food during an outbreak is cool, but I'd also love to see things like Civil Unrest making all weapons and armour illegal... economic bust making the trade of luxury items illegal... right up to circumstances making, say, all Metals/Minerals illegal (and obviously fetching a tasty markup).

 

[Walter2]

Democracies are no better at making wise decisions than any other form of government - the idiocy of crowds should never be under-estimated (fingers may be pointed at the discretion of the reader).

In RL, black markets develop in the right conditions, irrespective of government type. The obvious triggers are: shortages brought about by an uncooperative Nature; deliberate under-production by manufacturers; governmental or international restrictions on trade/finance; or a combination of these factors.

Perhaps it would be more realistic if black markets only appear in stations where the controlling faction is in a state of War, Civil war, Outbreak or Famine.

(Ninjad by Jmanis - again.)

 

[Ryan Murdoc]

Our government by the Lore foundation we've set out for it is seen as benevolent Dictatorship. One of our Wingmembers nailed it quite nicely in one of his replies lately:

We're a benevolent parasite, really, seeking a long-term symbiotic relationship. Safe, sane and consensual; in a pinch, two out of three ain't bad. A fungus of fun guys! Floating like a butterfly, stinging like a single malt scotch well above the age of consent.

 

[_trent_]

We only have one illegal good and that's Slaves. Anything else is a go here (Dictatorship / Independent).

True, but stolen goods and thargoid sensors/probes/whatever are also sellable on the BMs only.

My reason for starting the thread was really more to see if the experiences of other players was similar to our own.

Our faction monitors a total of about 30-40 systems so while that's a decent number it is only a tiny fraction of the thousands of systems in the bubble. We've noticed that the number of active black markets in the area seems to be slowly but surely shrinking and the number of disabled BMs is rising.

If things continue as they are, a month or two from now the only factions that will have them are NPC anarchy factions and those PMF factions that don't disable them. I think that could cause problems for a lot of PMFs, particularly the smaller ones who may find themselves owning the only Black Market in a 15LY radius.

 

[Ryan Murdoc]

True, but stolen goods and thargoid sensors/probes/whatever are also sellable on the BMs only.

Reason I'm so glad we changed our original government (Democracy) into Dictatorship shortly after introduction, not knowing what a blessing this would be in the long run. Disabling BMs and thus taking away at least one chance of others trying to mess with us was / is a good thing. The BGS has had multiple flaws in the beginning and still has enough to make people get burned out on it, but with 3.0 and what will follow things are finally coming around.

 

[Marra Morgan]

Reason I'm so glad we changed our original government (Democracy) into Dictatorship shortly after introduction, not knowing what a blessing this would be in the long run. Disabling BMs and thus taking away at least one chance of others trying to mess with us was / is a good thing. The BGS has had multiple flaws in the beginning and still has enough to make people get burned out on it, but with 3.0 and what will follow things are finally coming around.

On that basis, would you recommend that any group who wants to escape the negative consequences of having black markets present should request Frontier to change them to Dictatorships?

 

[Walter2]

On that basis, would you recommend that any group who wants to escape the negative consequences of having black markets present should request Frontier to change them to Dictatorships?

It's no longer possible to change details of an application once it has been submitted: "We will not accept any edit requests after your submission to the form below."

Does this apply to established PMFs?

 

[Jmanis]

It's no longer possible to change details of an application once it has been submitted: "We will not accept any edit requests after your submission to the form below."

Does this apply to established PMFs?

It's that sort of thing the odd player CG would've been great for... something like a faction-wide civil war with itself... rebels vs the current establishment. Bonds count against each system, whichever side has most bonds in a system gets a point, side with most points wins.