Are Frontier a large games company?

I’ve always thought of Frontier as a small “boutique” company, producing fun but fairly niche types of games. This has always helped temper my expectations when it comes to dlc and updates... grateful for anything to be honest!

Their PR relations has always fallen short IMO and they have blustered and stuttered their way through announcements and newsletters etc. - sometimes learning from their mistakes and more often not! The merging of the games into one stream was ridiculous IMO as I have no interest in theme parks or Dino zoos!

But the moving to the new premises, the floating on the stock exchange and the millions of copies of their games sold all seem to point to the fact that Frontier are not a small company after all!

What do you think?
Are people expecting too much or are Frontier simply not delivering to an expected standard?
 
Compared to game studios like Rockstar, EA, Activision, Nintendo, Ubisoft, etc..., Frontier definitely are not a large game studio.

However, they are not an indie developer or startup either.

In terms of what people expect - the only other game that is attempting to reproduce anything with the same level of scope is Star Citizen, which has/had 10 times the budget, 4 times the number of developers, and has not released anything despite starting development around the same time as Elite Dangerous.

Remember, also, that ED is multiple games in one - space combat, exploration, trading/mining, etc... if they only focused on one of these aspects, they would likely be able to produce a lot more depth in that particular aspect. As it is, they end up creating a game that is a jack-of-all-trades, and a master of none.

Nevertheless, while Frontier may not always meet people’s expectations, they appear to be the best at what they do.
 
Frontier is a self publisher, of medium size.

In the coming years, it can become a giant of the sector.

But does he really want it ?

An additional building would be necessary, however.

:)
 
Frontier is a self publisher, of medium size.

In the coming years, it can become a giant of the sector.

But does he really want it ?

An additional building would be necessary, however.

:)
Considering they just built their current building and moved in, I don't think they will be expanding *too* much in the near future :D
 
But the moving to the new premises, the floating on the stock exchange and the millions of copies of their games sold all seem to point to the fact that Frontier are not a small company after all!
They're medium-sized. There used to be a lot more of those around, I think, between the giants and the "two devs in a basement". A lot of my favourite 90s games were from medium-sized companies...

Are people expecting too much or are Frontier simply not delivering to an expected standard?
I don't think there's a simple answer to that.

A brief of "multiplayer Elite" is an incredibly ambitious challenge. There are good reasons why none of the big players are trying anything close to this.
- open-world space games are *really* tricky to get the gameplay right for. Even basic issues like "how do I get from A to B" require major compromises to work at all.
- making it multiplayer means a lot of things that were handwaved in the original Elites are unsatisfactory now. But changing them enough would mean that it wasn't recognisably an Elite sequel at all.
- there are a lot of areas of gameplay with somewhat contradictory requirements
- the potential scope is huge (and as we've seen with "space legs", "atmospheric landings", etc. people will demand all of it, because it's a genre where invisible walls really don't feel right)
- it's a complex game with a lot of interactions between bits and a lot of ways to do things. People complain about the bugs a lot - and some severe stuff does get through - but equally it's far too big a game to properly test everything every release.

It's also the case that back when Frontier were releasing 1.0
- they had no experience of running MMOs
- they were a smaller company with limited resources
- they therefore made some less-than-ideal decisions which are by now very challenging to unpick (and most probably won't ever be)
- they also didn't necessarily prioritise the things they should have for early development. (e.g. Squadrons should have been 1.3 not 3.3 - while Powerplay should have been in 3.3 once they'd got the hang of MMOs a bit)

Personally I think Frontier and Elite Dangerous have improved considerably since 1.0 - back then if you asked me "is Elite Dangerous a good game?" I wouldn't have been able to give a short answer ... and I wouldn't have recommended it to anyone who wasn't already a fan of the previous games. Nowadays, I'd just say "yes" (but add a couple of caveats if I didn't think the person who was asking was a sandbox fan)

So I think a lot of people do have unreasonable expectations of what a space game should be (which doesn't just affect Elite Dangerous - the same cycle of massive pre-release hype and unrealistic expectations ... followed by massive disappointment as it turned out to be a computer game after all ... happened to No Man's Sky and X4, and will happen to Star Citizen as well), how long it takes to make one, and how interactions between components can make things much harder than they seem [1]. But that doesn't mean that Frontier didn't make avoidable mistakes in design or prioritisation, that could perhaps have been avoided by bringing in more people with MMO design experience early on, that we're still seeing the effects of now. (Beyond did clean up some of it, but it's a bigger job than that)


[1] Space legs being a good example. We've had FPSes since the 80s (or 90s, if you require a decent frame rate). The actual walking around in a first-person perspective is *not* the tricky bit with combining that with a space-flight game.
 
They're medium-sized. There used to be a lot more of those around, I think, between the giants and the "two devs in a basement". A lot of my favourite 90s games were from medium-sized companies...


I don't think there's a simple answer to that.

A brief of "multiplayer Elite" is an incredibly ambitious challenge. There are good reasons why none of the big players are trying anything close to this.
- open-world space games are *really* tricky to get the gameplay right for. Even basic issues like "how do I get from A to B" require major compromises to work at all.
- making it multiplayer means a lot of things that were handwaved in the original Elites are unsatisfactory now. But changing them enough would mean that it wasn't recognisably an Elite sequel at all.
- there are a lot of areas of gameplay with somewhat contradictory requirements
- the potential scope is huge (and as we've seen with "space legs", "atmospheric landings", etc. people will demand all of it, because it's a genre where invisible walls really don't feel right)
- it's a complex game with a lot of interactions between bits and a lot of ways to do things. People complain about the bugs a lot - and some severe stuff does get through - but equally it's far too big a game to properly test everything every release.

It's also the case that back when Frontier were releasing 1.0
- they had no experience of running MMOs
- they were a smaller company with limited resources
- they therefore made some less-than-ideal decisions which are by now very challenging to unpick (and most probably won't ever be)
- they also didn't necessarily prioritise the things they should have for early development. (e.g. Squadrons should have been 1.3 not 3.3 - while Powerplay should have been in 3.3 once they'd got the hang of MMOs a bit)

Personally I think Frontier and Elite Dangerous have improved considerably since 1.0 - back then if you asked me "is Elite Dangerous a good game?" I wouldn't have been able to give a short answer ... and I wouldn't have recommended it to anyone who wasn't already a fan of the previous games. Nowadays, I'd just say "yes" (but add a couple of caveats if I didn't think the person who was asking was a sandbox fan)

So I think a lot of people do have unreasonable expectations of what a space game should be (which doesn't just affect Elite Dangerous - the same cycle of massive pre-release hype and unrealistic expectations ... followed by massive disappointment as it turned out to be a computer game after all ... happened to No Man's Sky and X4, and will happen to Star Citizen as well), how long it takes to make one, and how interactions between components can make things much harder than they seem [1]. But that doesn't mean that Frontier didn't make avoidable mistakes in design or prioritisation, that could perhaps have been avoided by bringing in more people with MMO design experience early on, that we're still seeing the effects of now. (Beyond did clean up some of it, but it's a bigger job than that)


[1] Space legs being a good example. We've had FPSes since the 80s (or 90s, if you require a decent frame rate). The actual walking around in a first-person perspective is *not* the tricky bit with combining that with a space-flight game.

Agreed. Anyone who thinks making Elite is easy is and that it should be better 'because I say so', should go look at all the other successful games of a similar size with the same scope that are being made on the fly and not hidden behind a developers curtain for half a decade before being revealed. That said.........


I've already suggested (for what it's worth) to Frontier that they should explain the process of making the game better so these hurdels are better unsterstood and available as a point of reference to people who think making games and game features is a simple process. This doesn't have to be a technical extravaganza, but an overview talk about how a specific feature starts out and then works its way through the development process until it appears in game. This would be informative to players and probably interesting to boot. Too many seem to think you just have an idea, makes some nice graphics in a week or two, add some coding and within a couple of months you would have an amazing piece of gameplay.
 
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So I think a lot of people do have unreasonable expectations of what a space game should be (which doesn't just affect Elite Dangerous - the same cycle of massive pre-release hype and unrealistic expectations ... followed by massive disappointment as it turned out to be a computer game after all ... happened to No Man's Sky and X4, and will happen to Star Citizen as well), how long it takes to make one, and how interactions between components can make things much harder than they seem [1]. But that doesn't mean that Frontier didn't make avoidable mistakes in design or prioritisation, that could perhaps have been avoided by bringing in more people with MMO design experience early on, that we're still seeing the effects of now. (Beyond did clean up some of it, but it's a bigger job than that)


[1] Space legs being a good example. We've had FPSes since the 80s (or 90s, if you require a decent frame rate). The actual walking around in a first-person perspective is *not* the tricky bit with combining that with a space-flight game.

Well said. Often there is underestimation of, or dismissing the complexity and achievement of ED's successful unprecedented combination of a massive scope and fidelity, making it all work smoothly, and how hard and long it would take to improve on it which has far more to do than ".. are Frontier simply not delivering to an expected standard?" I think it's great that Frontier while now having achieved becoming a small-cap corporation is still their own independent publisher and studio and can positively afford to be committed to the vision of the Elite franchise with no other distractions and red tape if they were bought out or subsidiary or dependent to entities like EA or ubisoft. And hope they never have an executive member like Todd Howard take over who eventually ran Bethsesda's franchises' creativity and visionary focus into the marketing focused banality of the current games industry. This free independent publishing was essentially what CIG-SC claimed to be aiming for from the KS phase, but with Frontier actually successfully doing it professionally and traditionally. Also agreed that Frontier was newer to MMO design and have hopefully learned and experienced from a few past but not critical franchise ending mistakes. Absolutely, Frontier and ED have emerged significantly successful from its trials and looks to have a long and bright future ahead going forward. Tencent and a few other major venture capitalist funds would not have invested in FDEV if they didn't believe they had a good working business model and good low-debt financials.
 
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I'd say they're a AA developer, they're past the point of being Indie or Boutique and as such are getting licenses for decently big franchises but they're still nowhere near the AAA behemoths.
 
They are very much a middle-sized developer. Much larger than the <50 dev studios like Klei and Egosoft and they even dwarf Paradox Development Studios' ~80 employees and Firaxis's ~200 employees. However, they are significantly smaller than the biggest players in the development scene, such as Blizzard (~5000 employees), Riot Games (~2500 employees), but they are firmly in the upper-middleweight category as they are about the same size as the likes of Bioware, Id, Bungie and Bethesda Game Studios.

However, unlike a lot of comparable studios that generally focus on 1-3 titles at a time, Frontier are spreading themselves very thinly between their projects as they currently have 6+ different projects active at once.
 
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DeletedUser191218

D
Expectations are always going to be high for a game that some people literally waited 20+ years for.

I think people underestimate how commercially focused Braben is. FDev could have had legs and atmos done by now if they had focussed on ED. But they chose to sell-out to the movie franchise and whatever other unannounced games they're working on. I'm not saying 'sell-out' in a bad way, every company has to. I don't know the financial break down of the business but it's quite conceivable that without the dino franchise they wouldn't have the resource to even do a big update in 2020. But Braben's ambition is clearly to grow FDev, not just ED. My issues with the way they're operating right now is two-fold - I worry they're trying to grow too quick and taking on too many franchises. It feels like they're going to be spread too thin to do any of the games justice. Secondly, communication is pants. I don't even think it's poor pr. It feels deliberate to me. They're letting the ED player base get hyped up and delaying the inevitable dissapointment because it works for them, commercially. They time announcements to best retain players (buying shipkits and paintjobs). To me, that's not fair treatment of customers. They should tell us up front and be transparent, as far as is reasonable. Otherwise, they're a money making corporation, just like all the rest. The days of game devs being creative geeks in basements is long gone.
 
Also.... does FD actually play ED?

I thinking "no"....unless they just think the wedding barge never gets old.
 

DeletedUser191218

D
Also.... does FD actually play ED?

I thinking "no"....unless they just think the wedding barge never gets old.

Ah the wedding barge. Systems on fire and under attack from an advanced alien civilization.....but the wedding barge is still pottering around. Nothing quite kills the feeling of suspended disbelief like it.
 
"The rumors were right. Good job I found you."

Also, regarding FD... is English their first language?
 
I’ve always thought of Frontier as a small “boutique” company, producing fun but fairly niche types of games. This has always helped temper my expectations when it comes to dlc and updates... grateful for anything to be honest!

Their PR relations has always fallen short IMO and they have blustered and stuttered their way through announcements and newsletters etc. - sometimes learning from their mistakes and more often not! The merging of the games into one stream was ridiculous IMO as I have no interest in theme parks or Dino zoos!

But the moving to the new premises, the floating on the stock exchange and the millions of copies of their games sold all seem to point to the fact that Frontier are not a small company after all!

What do you think?
Are people expecting too much or are Frontier simply not delivering to an expected standard?

Medium, more then one game, but still only a few 'main' games.
 
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