Are Long-range Gimballed weapons basically broken?

[Scoob]

Hey all,

While playing around last night, I fitted some Class two G3 (IIRC) Long-Range Pulses to one of my ships - they've been in storage for ages. These weapons have a range of just over 5km. However, they really can't hit anything over about 3km, making them pretty pointless for long-range sniping. Fixed weapons are far far better at this.

Now, I'm not talking about jitter here, I'm talking about simple Gimballed tracking on a fairly large target that's far away. I was trying to shoot a Python at around 4.5km range. However, even without firing my gimballs are all over the place. The guy isn't chaffing, is actively fighting other ships - so isn't cold - and is presenting a large profile to me. However, my LR Pulses simple cannot track the target. I fire off a load of shots - which doesn't make any difference to gimballed tracking - and land the odd shot, but it's a total waste of energy. I'd have hit every time with a fixed weapon.

I understand that the real bonus of LR is more about damage falloff - or lack of it - than anything else. However, the poor gimballed tracking with this Engineering modification is simply not fit for purpose for long-range sniping. I'd have thought the Long Range effect - to actually be effective at long ranges - would also improve the gimballed tracking of the weapon. It does not.

Going fixed LR on the other hand - which used to be my weapon of choice - fire straight and true while being a little more tricky to aim. Gimballs suffer a significant damage penalty - I think it's 30% IIRC - as a counter to them, in theory, being able to track the target within a few degrees of arc. However, with LR they really don't track it properly at all.

I understand, while it was beta tested once upon a time, that Sensors do not enhance Gimballed tracking at all. Personally, I think it'd be great if they did, but hey. Is anyone having success with Long Range Gimballed weapons at long range, or are they a bit rubbish for everyone? I only played around with Pulses last night, because I had some in storage of the right class for the ship I was playing with.

Note: I'm unsure whether something has changed recently or not. However, my regular Wingmate - who loves his long range stuff - was commenting too about how his weapons - Gimballed Pulses - were no longer able to hit anything at long range any more. However, he'd previously been using them very effectively.

Note 2: my personal preference for combat is up close with Efficient Beams, Multi's and Frags. I was just playing around with something different last night and was surprised how bad it was. My Wingmates experiences were interesting too, him noticing things had become far worse than they once were. I personally had not played around with LR stuff in an age, but he uses it all the time. So for him to see that his LR Gimballed Pulses simply don't track target after target any more suggests somehing has indeed changed recently. We've both been levelling up our Combat ranks slowly, so NPC enemies have improved. However, this shouldn't impact basic weapon tracking, right?

Basically, I have the builds that work really well for me - the aforementioned up close and personal - but I would hope that trying other things would at least work and not be totally broken. Why are Long Range Gimballed weapons so terrible at target tracking before you even introduce potential jitter by firing them?

Scoob.

 

[Rubbernuke]

Gimbals have wobble in them, and at medium to long ranges are rubbish.

 

[goemon]

you can mitigate the effect somewhat with emissive munitions for better tracking, but the wobbling stays.

a reason why all my longrange lasers are G1 (no damage fall off, and they hit rather relieable until 3,6 km).

 

[Ian Doncaster]

It has its uses as a blueprint, but not for actually hitting things at extreme range with gimbals.
The lack of damage falloff and the increased shot speed might still be useful in the 1-2km range, though.

 

[Northpin]

While playing around last night, I fitted some Class two G3 (IIRC) Long-Range Pulses to one of my ships - they've been in storage for ages. These weapons have a range of just over 5km. However, they really can't hit anything over about 3km, making them pretty pointless for long-range sniping. Fixed weapons are far far better at this.

This is pretty accurate.
The gimbals do wobble really bad. And that makes long-range mod for lasers rather useless.
For example - efficient beams will do basically the same damage as long range up to about 1.2-1.3km then the damage will slowly fall behind low range beams, but the efficient beams will be able to fire way longer than long range beams - and this will make up for the lost damage due to distance fall-off

Now, I'm not talking about jitter here, I'm talking about simple Gimballed tracking on a fairly large target that's far away. I was trying to shoot a Python at around 4.5km range. However, even without firing my gimballs are all over the place. The guy isn't chaffing, is actively fighting other ships - so isn't cold - and is presenting a large profile to me. However, my LR Pulses simple cannot track the target.

This really sounds like chaff - and the guy can chaff and actively fight other ships.

But you are right.
Gimbaled is rather worthless past 3km - they cant reliably hit the target because of the wobble
And if you try to go PP sniping with Gimbaled lasers, make sure you stay 300-400m from target - else the wobble will make those lasers go all over the target except that tiny red square that marks the PP.


For long range lasers - you really need to go either fixed or turrets.
The turrets can reliably hit targets up to 5km

 

[Scoob]

you can mitigate the effect somewhat with emissive munitions for better tracking, but the wobbling stays.

a reason why all my longrange lasers are G1 (no damage fall off, and they hit rather relieable until 3,6 km).

But that means I'd need a Long Range Multicannon too...which I'd not be able to hit with at that range due to the gimballed wobble lol. I was trying to see if a long-range stand-off build was at all possible. My Fighter would distract them, while I snipe modules (Pulses are good at this, normally) from long range. I can do this with fixed weapons at long range as the relative movement arc is small at a distance and fixed weapons are easily to aim as a result.

This really sounds like chaff - and the guy can chaff and actively fight other ships.

He definitely wasn't chaffing, cos he chaffed a few seconds later and my gimballs went even more nuts lol.

What I meant by actively fighting was that he'd not have been running cool. I observe that colder ships can massively reduce the arc in which Gimballed weapons track. He'd not popped any SCB's either so no Heat Sinks launched.

Like I said, these are not my weapon of choice but I wanted to have a play with them and they're RUBBISH lol. For Energy weapons I always go Efficient Beams, usually with Thermal Vent as they're very good at hiding me from other attacks cos I go cold. Sure, the guy I'm shooting can still hit me, but his wingmates lose lock, which is cool...pun intended.

I guess I just hope that there's merit in other weapons too and not just the "best" ones. I've played with Energy-only builds to melt shields while a Wingmate in a kinetic build shreds hulls. That worked well, seriously! Bzzzt! from me and shields down, dakka dakka dakka from him and hull shreded. Hilarious. I've played with full multi-cannon builds which are surprisingly effective vs. shields even without thermal Engineering. I've got Plasma builds which aren't as damaging as I'd hoped, tricky to use and run out of ammo quickly - might try the "they run off fuel" mod. I've also got some Railgun builds where I do more damage to myself than the enemy does due to overheating....until I tweaked things. I like playing with other stuff, it's often fun, if not the most effective. However, LR Pulses are easily the biggest letdown and are zero fun. Can I have a Materials refund please? lol.

Quite often you'd find me out in a Railgun-equipped Sidewinder or Viper Mk III, or perhaps a Plasma Vulture or Python, an all Multicannon Gunship or pure Frags Challenger. They're all fun, if not the most effective, but LR Pulses suck lol.

Edit: I did want to add that LR Turrets are indeed far far better than Gimballed. I have some LR Pulses on my Cargo Cutter build and they're shockingly good when the target isn't using chaff. I also have some Rapid fire Pulse Turrets that are good too, but only up close due to the excessive jitter.

Scoob.

 

[goemon]

But that means I'd need a Long Range Multicannon too...

pulse lasers and missile racks can be equiped with emissive munition as well.

 

[Cmdr. Numa]

The two medium long range gimballed beams work pretty well on my Vette. Their main job is to tickle and aggro the NPCs, so they come to me, where the efficient large beam waits, helped by the two mediums.

 

[Scoob]

pulse lasers and missile racks can be equiped with emissive munition as well.

You know, I wasn't aware Pulse Lasers could have emmisive! Just had to check on Inara and there it is lol. However, having using Emissive on a variety of ships with Multi-cannons, they do not appear to aid tracking at all under normal circumstances. I.e. a target that's warm, not chaffing etc. will not demonstrate tighter gimballed tracking when tagged with emmisive. Where they do help, a little, is if the target drops a heat sink, but it's not really that consistent, so I'm actually dropping Emmissive from my MC loadouts going forward.

The two medium long range gimballed beams work pretty well on my Vette. Their main job is to tickle and aggro the NPCs, so they come to me, where the efficient large beam waits, helped by the two mediums.

I do think that Gimballed LR Beam seem to work a little better, it's Pulses that are very poor. I think I either sold my LR Beams or overwrote the Engineering so I cannot test at the moment. I likely would have normally gone with beams rather than pulses when playing around. However, I actually had some Pulses in storage so went with those, plus I wanted a relatively low Distro-draw as I was playing with a Keelback - fun ship, rubbish at everything, but fun lol.

Scoob.

 

[goemon]

they do not appear to aid tracking at all under normal circumstances. I.e. a target that's warm, not chaffing etc. will not demonstrate tighter gimballed tracking when tagged with emmisive.

they help a lot with gimbal tracking speed of large and huge hardpoints in my experience. i tend to fit one small or medium emissive pulse for that.

 

[Cmdr. Numa]

they help a lot with gimbal tracking speed of large and huge hardpoints in my experience. i tend to fit one small or medium emissive pulse for that.

A-rated long range sensors do the job too though.

 

[goemon]

A-rated long range sensors do the job too though.

i have those additionally .... nice to have somewhat 12km range for BHing or CZ. afaik sensors don#t affect gimbal tracking though.

 

[goemon]

(note: FDEV makes a difference between gimbal tracking and visibility in patch-notes, for exampel patch notes 2.2.03. it matches my experience that there is a difference between those two. sensors affect "visibility" (=resolve). emissive affects both visibility and gimbal tracking. the beta, where sensors affected gimbal tracking as well has not being put live ever.)

 

[Stealthie]

Gimbals have wobble in them, and at medium to long ranges are rubbish.

I think Scoob answers most of his own questions here.
Lack of accuracy is going to be the result of jitter and, in practical terms, reduced fall-off is more beneficial than ultimate range.

Anecdotally, I like to have a G5 long-range pulse-turret on all my combat ships, simply to attract my target's attention and then continually "paint" it (with the Emissive XFX) while I shoot it with other weapons.
Once a target's in range I'll pull the trigger, the turret will start firing and it usually takes about 3 or 4 shots before it turns red, indicating I've hit it.
Not sure whether I'd class that level of inaccuracy as "broken" or just a reasonable consequence of firing on targets at long range.

If you were planning on some kind of "long range auto-sniper" build, I guess it could be frustrating.
Personally, although I'm not the greatest shot in the world, I've had more luck with manually-aimed long-range rails.
The lock-time is a PITA but as long as you can keep your target in the crosshairs throughout the firing cycle they score good hits.

 

[Scoob]

A-rated long range sensors do the job too though.

It's funny, last year I was fitting A-Rated sensors to all my combat ships, but noticed no difference when using D-Rated - I'd always visually spot a target long before it was even a flicker on my scanner. I might re-assess my Engineering and give it a go again.

So, we think A-Rated Sensors Engineered with Long Range are the best combo to reduce long-range targetting wobble?

@Stealthie - I thought "jitter" was induced by firing - I see this with Rapid Fire weapons but don't mind as they're used up close. With these LR Pulses, they're wavering all over the place when not firing, but don't get worse when actually firing. Have FDev really introduced Jitter so weapons that aren't firing? I would have thought that jitter would get worse with each shot, settling down when not firing. I.e. short bursts of fire would be the way to use them.

Scoob.

 

[Rubbernuke]

I think Scoob answers most of his own questions here.
Lack of accuracy is going to be the result of jitter and, in practical terms, reduced fall-off is more beneficial than ultimate range.

Anecdotally, I like to have a G5 long-range pulse-turret on all my combat ships, simply to attract my target's attention and then continually "paint" it (with the Emissive XFX) while I shoot it with other weapons.
Once a target's in range I'll pull the trigger, the turret will start firing and it usually takes about 3 or 4 shots before it turns red, indicating I've hit it.
Not sure whether I'd class that level of inaccuracy as "broken" or just a reasonable consequence of firing on targets at long range.

If you were planning on some kind of "long range auto-sniper" build, I guess it could be frustrating.
Personally, although I'm not the greatest shot in the world, I've had more luck with manually-aimed long-range rails.
The lock-time is a PITA but as long as you can keep your target in the crosshairs throughout the firing cycle they score good hits.

Gimbals are weapons for tight dogfights and mitigating sluggish ships really- gimbals are naturally wobbly at rest and you are wasting energy / giving away your position firing. For long range attacks its easier with fixed and use the microgimballing effect which is rock solid and is more powerful generally.

 

[Rubbernuke]

It's funny, last year I was fitting A-Rated sensors to all my combat ships, but noticed no difference when using D-Rated - I'd always visually spot a target long before it was even a flicker on my scanner. I might re-assess my Engineering and give it a go again.

So, we think A-Rated Sensors Engineered with Long Range are the best combo to reduce long-range targetting wobble?

@Stealthie - I thought "jitter" was induced by firing - I see this with Rapid Fire weapons but don't mind as they're used up close. With these LR Pulses, they're wavering all over the place when not firing, but don't get worse when actually firing. Have FDev really introduced Jitter so weapons that aren't firing? I would have thought that jitter would get worse with each shot, settling down when not firing. I.e. short bursts of fire would be the way to use them.

Scoob.

At rest gimbals wobble, you can watch them in the reticule. Firing jitter is extra to that again.

 

[Scoob]

At rest gimbals wobble, you can watch them in the reticule. Firing jitter is extra to that again.

Yes, that's what I'm talking about, the wobble not the firing-related jitter. They get off to a bad start in that regard. With fixed weapons you don't get this of course, so they work really well at long range, but become tricky to use when you get closer.

Scoob.

 

[Rubbernuke]

Yes, that's what I'm talking about, the wobble not the firing-related jitter. They get off to a bad start in that regard. With fixed weapons you don't get this of course, so they work really well at long range, but become tricky to use when you get closer.

Scoob.

Tools for the job, really. The skill in ED is knowing how range, gimballing effects and engineering overlap and knowing when to employ different mixes of fixed, gimbal etc. It then makes your trigger discipline better too so you don't waste shots mashing the fire button

 

[Stealthie]

Gimbals are weapons for tight dogfights and mitigating sluggish ships really- gimbals are naturally wobbly at rest and you are wasting energy / giving away your position firing. For long range attacks its easier with fixed and use the microgimballing effect which is rock solid and is more powerful generally.

Yep.

As a rule, I only fire on a target at 6km if I'm desperate to get it's attention - either if it's a big ship and I'm mat-harvesting or it's a small ship that's been annoying me and I want to send my SLF after it.

The main point was simply that, at a range of ~6km, it does usually take 3 or 4 shots before I connect with my target - suggesting that only around 25% of your shots are going to hit at that range.
Not a big deal if it's a laser-turret that's just going to keep plugging away without using ammo' but if you were trying to take deliberate shots, with powerful weapons, at that range the results would probably be poor.