CQC Are projectiles too easily countered by spiralling?

[Alexander the Grape]

Currently, in Condor duels, I find it very easy to take almost no damage from enemies using rapid cannons, and especially plasma repeaters, simply by keeping distance, and spiralling away from my foe whilst shooting at them.

Part of the problem is that accounting for this is impossible, as the auto-gimballing of projectile weaponry automatically defaults to the target reticule, making adjustments to non-linear movements impossible.

What I would like to see is non-gimballing projectile weaponry. Maybe a totally fixed multicannon or the like, where the shots will go exactly where you place them.

 

[SushiCW]

Even with non-gimbal weapons, it's still extremely difficult to hit a spiraling target, especially if they vary their turn rate slightly to keep the spiral from being uniform. Having a pure-fixed weapon wouldn't help very much in that situation.

I tend to think it balances out fine. The projectile weapons in CQC cost zero WEP energy, have longer range, and don't telegraph your position as obviously as lasers. All of which are pretty significant upsides, so I don't mind too much that they have an exploitable weakness in being dodgeable. It means they're worse than lasers at dueling, but better in ambush / gank scenarios.

Aside: do you find the evasive spiraling works better with FA off or FA on? I haven't ever had the chance to test it in controlled conditions. I suspect that FA on gives you a tighter spiral than you can get with FA off though.

 

[Nebohtes]

Tonight was really bad for stability on my end. People were leaping around, and the lead pip was jumping all over. I'm not taking anything away from you, you were stellar, but it was impossible to hit anything tonight, let alone score hits boosting through. Every time I boosted the lead pip jumped all over.

Also, I wish I could test it in a Controlled environment, but matching the rotation seems to negate it, at least with the cannons. The Plasmas just gotta' be close.

Personally, I think they're all right; they're extremely hard to use with lag. I had the cannons out for a round when I unlocked them, but somehow they were even worse. Sunday might just be a hit scan night, though I wasn't doing great with those, either.

 

[Alexander the Grape]

Even with non-gimbal weapons, it's still extremely difficult to hit a spiraling target, especially if they vary their turn rate slightly to keep the spiral from being uniform. Having a pure-fixed weapon wouldn't help very much in that situation.

I tend to think it balances out fine. The projectile weapons in CQC cost zero WEP energy, have longer range, and don't telegraph your position as obviously as lasers. All of which are pretty significant upsides, so I don't mind too much that they have an exploitable weakness in being dodgeable. It means they're worse than lasers at dueling, but better in ambush / gank scenarios.

Aside: do you find the evasive spiraling works better with FA off or FA on? I haven't ever had the chance to test it in controlled conditions. I suspect that FA on gives you a tighter spiral than you can get with FA off though.

I'm not proficient enough in FA OFF to answer anything conclusively, but at least for me, FA ON always seems to result in tighter turns. I'm not sure if this is down to a difference in thruster behaviour, or simply that it requires more coordination of exact lateral thrust and roll than I'm capable of.

One advantage FA OFF evasive spiralling would have over FA ON would be the increased reverse speed. If you're able to micromanage roll, lateral thrust and aim in FA OFF simultaneously it could be worth it to get a bit of extra distance on foes

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Tonight was really bad for stability on my end. People were leaping around, and the lead pip was jumping all over. I'm not taking anything away from you, you were stellar, but it was impossible to hit anything tonight, let alone score hits boosting through. Every time I boosted the lead pip jumped all over.

Also, I wish I could test it in a Controlled environment, but matching the rotation seems to negate it, at least with the cannons. The Plasmas just gotta' be close.

Personally, I think they're all right; they're extremely hard to use with lag. I had the cannons out for a round when I unlocked them, but somehow they were even worse. Sunday might just be a hit scan night, though I wasn't doing great with those, either.

Yeah, tonight was pretty naff, must be all the new players. I'm not basing it solely on tonight though, I had similar experiences with other commanders using rapid multicannons. I have a video somewhere that show it in earnest.

I so wish we could have private matches so that stuff like this could be tested/tournaments run. I'm not sure that matching rotation would help, considering the pip is based on relative velocity only, and does not take into account acceleration (angular or otherwise), but it would definitely be interesting to try

 

[Nebohtes]

Yeah, I'd kill for a mode to test that kind of stuff, or a duel mode. Do the projectiles inherit the ship speed? I always assumed they did, because my hit rate always jumps when I boost towards the pip.

 

[SushiCW]

I've found that for rapid cannons, you can usually get at least a few hits against spiralers by rushing them. Your velocity adds to your shot velocity and reduces the total deflection, so if your relative velocity is high enough you can usually get at least a few shots to land.

Also, if someone is reversing away fast enough that you can't effectively rush... then you just turn and boost the opposite direction and disengage until things are more in your favor.

Really what I want is a 1v1 deathmatch where I can experiment with this stuff in a controlled space, and try different combos of spiral rate, relative velocity, FA off / FA on, and pip settings. And all sorts of other CQC testing too!

 

[Nebohtes]

I've found that for rapid cannons, you can usually get at least a few hits against spiralers by rushing them. Your velocity adds to your shot velocity and reduces the total deflection, so if your relative velocity is high enough you can usually get at least a few shots to land.

Also, if someone is reversing away fast enough that you can't effectively rush... then you just turn and boost the opposite direction and disengage until things are more in your favor.

Really what I want is a 1v1 deathmatch where I can experiment with this stuff in a controlled space, and try different combos of spiral rate, relative velocity, FA off / FA on, and pip settings. And all sorts of other CQC testing too!

Exactly this.

 

[SushiCW]

Yeah, I'd kill for a mode to test that kind of stuff, or a duel mode. Do the projectiles inherit the ship speed? I always assumed they did, because my hit rate always jumps when I boost towards the pip.

They absolutely do. Your effective range also gets a boost depending on how fast you are closing distance.

 

[Crimson Kaim]

The spiralling tactic is lame and I am a Plasma Repeater user all the way. I either go very close if the spinning opponent is not shooting at me or just boost away with the super boost engine and find myself a new target. If I am chased, well, FA off and turn 180, boost and shoot back -> insta kill. This is the idea of boom and zoom.
But yea, against spinning targets, a fixed laser is basically the best thing one can do because of hitscan.

 

[Nebohtes]

The spiralling tactic is lame and I am a Plasma Repeater user all the way. I either go very close if the spinning opponent is not shooting at me or just boost away with the super boost engine and find myself a new target. If I am chased, well, FA off and turn 180, boost and shoot back -> insta kill. This is the idea of boom and zoom.
But yea, against spinning targets, a fixed laser is basically the best thing one can do because of hitscan.

I've been thinking about this, and I think Alexander's point is that in fights with well rounded pilots, hits-scan will be the only effective choice. I'm a net-code dunce, but if the peer-to-peer (this might be an over simplification, but I really am pretty ignorant) makes it so, essentially, both interacting pilots are experiencing the same condition and effects of data transfer, the projectile user is at a serious disadvantage; erratic course changes aren't necessarily having a big effect on the reconciled ship position, but movements and predictions are amplified through the targetting system, so hit-scan weapons are effected minimally, while projectile (lead/lag pip) weapons are effected to a greater degree.

The best way to modify course while staying on target is the barrel roll (strafing laterally while rolling the opposing direction), which uses small adjustments to vertical position, roll rate, etc.

If this is enough to avoid projectiles without any p2p issues, when they get added in, it's pretty harsh for the attacker.

I'm not a great pilot, but I've had some success with projectiles. Alexander and I had a lot of faux duels the other night, and the results were pretty embarrassing for me; I'm not pouting, the Grape is top notch, much better than me, and other than Rhetoric, the pilot I learn the most flying against (every death I'd an opportunity to learn something new, right?). The fact is, even though Alexander is clutch at avoiding fire in general and projectiles specifically, he was extremely successful on Sunday. Was it a p2p issue, or did he just level up in his ability? We have no way to quantify or test it without knowing how well our machines were communicating, or a controlled environment to test it. As pilot skill increases, the onion gets peeled another layer, and nuance becomes the key to victory -- we need to be able to detect the nuance, quantify it, and resolve it; the empirical realm is getting surpassed.

 

[SushiCW]

So about the spiral... how exactly are you guys doing it? I've been finding it isn't working consistently for me at all, so likely I'm doing something wrong. For example, earlier I had a fight where both of us had rapid cannons, both of us were spiraling, but his shots were hitting and mine were not.

So either I'm doing something wrong, or there's a way to counter the spiral without rushing.

Tried to record it but shadowplay apparently decided to not work.

 

[kossack]

So about the spiral... how exactly are you guys doing it? I've been finding it isn't working consistently for me at all, so likely I'm doing something wrong. For example, earlier I had a fight where both of us had rapid cannons, both of us were spiraling, but his shots were hitting and mine were not.

So either I'm doing something wrong, or there's a way to counter the spiral without rushing.

Tried to record it but shadowplay apparently decided to not work.

Well, you need to yaw. Adding "the third input" counters your spiral (actually barrel roll). Watch the masters (Shadow Night and Z4.Mafia) for hints.
Btw, how did you managed to get so high K/D ratio without learning how to counter basic attack? Just curious...

 

[SushiCW]

Well, you need to yaw. Adding "the third input" counters your spiral (actually barrel roll).

To clarify, what I'm doing:

- Thrust in a lateral direction as hard as I can.
- Roll left or right as hard as I can.
- Use Pitch/Yaw adjustments to keep my own aim on target
- Use reverse / forward thrust to try to open/close/maintain distance depending on the situation.

Usually I'm doing this with FA on, seems to work a bit more often... but not nearly as often as it seems to work when used against me.

Not sure what you mean by needing to yaw. And not sure what you mean by "third input counters your spiral". What third input? As mentioned above, I'm actively using five inputs (or six if thrusting diagonally instead of straight up/down).

Btw, how did you managed to get so high K/D ratio without learning how to counter basic attack? Just curious...

Clearly it's a fluke and I need more games against skillful opponents to remedy it!

 

[kossack]

To clarify, what I'm doing:

1 - Thrust in a lateral direction as hard as I can.
2 - Roll left or right as hard as I can.
3 - Use Pitch/Yaw adjustments to keep my own aim on target
4 - Use reverse / forward thrust to try to open/close/maintain distance depending on the situation.

5 Usually I'm doing this with FA on, seems to work a bit more often... but not nearly as often as it seems to work when used against me.

6 Not sure what you mean by needing to yaw. And not sure what you mean by "third input counters your spiral". What third input? As mentioned above, I'm actively using five inputs (or six if thrusting diagonally instead of straight up/down).




Clearly it's a fluke and I need more games against skillful opponents to remedy it!

1, 2 - correct.
3 - I do not use it unless the opponent is rolling too (tracking weapons can keep tracking without yaw if the distance is correct)
4 - If you stop - you loose. Do not ever go through "0 speed" point, better boost laterally.
5 - Personally I never fly without FA (don't see the benefit) Perhaps if I had a mouse/keyboard or dual joystick setup it would be a different story, but with X52 there is no benefit in using FA off
6 - When we duel in CQC I've noticed that you did not yaw so the curvature of your path was too small & I was able to hit you with my rapid cannons. If you add yaw appropriately you can increase curvature (increase perceived circular motion from my point of view).
For the last point, if you just want to escape opponent's fire - just close the distance, has the same effect if you do not need to return fire.

 

[SushiCW]

6 - When we duel in CQC I've noticed that you did not yaw so the curvature of your path was too small & I was able to hit you with my rapid cannons. If you add yaw appropriately you can increase curvature (increase perceived circular motion from my point of view).

When you say "yaw" do you mean "lateral thrust" or proper rotational yaw?

I do remember a couple of head-to-head moments the other night where we were both spiraling while facing each other at about 500m and your shots would hit but mine would not. So you're saying my spiral was too tight? Pretty hard to accurately evaluate my own movement, especially in the heat of battle. But if my spiral was too tight, that implies I should be rolling less aggressively than at 100%, which goes against what you (and others) tend to indicate is the right way to perform the maneuver. Or do you mean that I should be using (rotational) yaw in some way that ends up increasing the spiral width? And if you mean rotational yaw, why not use pitch, which is stronger?

Also, have you found that the number of ENG pips makes a difference here?

Thanks for the discussion, this stuff is a pain to try to work out on your own with the lack of chat or private training matches or practice free-flight.

 

[kossack]

When you say "yaw" do you mean "lateral thrust" or proper rotational yaw?

I do remember a couple of head-to-head moments the other night where we were both spiraling while facing each other at about 500m and your shots would hit but mine would not. So you're saying my spiral was too tight? Pretty hard to accurately evaluate my own movement, especially in the heat of battle. But if my spiral was too tight, that implies I should be rolling less aggressively than at 100%, which goes against what you (and others) tend to indicate is the right way to perform the maneuver. Or do you mean that I should be using (rotational) yaw in some way that ends up increasing the spiral width? And if you mean rotational yaw, why not use pitch, which is stronger?

Also, have you found that the number of ENG pips makes a difference here?

Thanks for the discussion, this stuff is a pain to try to work out on your own with the lack of chat or private training matches or practice free-flight.

Rotational yaw (as in aviation terminology
Yes, your "spiral" was too tight relative to mine (you stayed within my weapons tracking range, but my ship was just a little bit out of your tracking range)
This apparent paradox is due to the screwed up flight dynamics (To my best understanding this is due to the cap on max ship velocity. Basically there is a max speed your ship can not exceed along the helical path, so lateral thrust will "borrow the speed" from the roll and widen the helix. I guess, you can achieve the same or even better result by tuning your roll, but personally in the heat of the battle I can reliably apply only max inputs...)
There is also an issue of pointing in the right direction, so using the pitch may not be desirable..

Yes, ENG pips also have substantial effect. I was flying with 4 in ENG.. I suspect if I had 2 it would put me in your weapons tracking range.

If you really serious about CQC I suggest recording your flights & reviewing them later, perhaps at 1/2 speed.
"Icy" arena also have quite a few "quiet places" so it is possible to just ignore the main game and train/test techniques 1v1 PvP. Especially after the latest change in matchmaking (a lot of inexperienced players)

 

[Nebohtes]

When you say "yaw" do you mean "lateral thrust" or proper rotational yaw?

I do remember a couple of head-to-head moments the other night where we were both spiraling while facing each other at about 500m and your shots would hit but mine would not. So you're saying my spiral was too tight? Pretty hard to accurately evaluate my own movement, especially in the heat of battle. But if my spiral was too tight, that implies I should be rolling less aggressively than at 100%, which goes against what you (and others) tend to indicate is the right way to perform the maneuver. Or do you mean that I should be using (rotational) yaw in some way that ends up increasing the spiral width? And if you mean rotational yaw, why not use pitch, which is stronger?

Also, have you found that the number of ENG pips makes a difference here?

Thanks for the discussion, this stuff is a pain to try to work out on your own with the lack of chat or private training matches or practice free-flight.

I'm still pretty novice, but I've had success with this maneuver by NOT rolling 100% (FA on) in the Condor. I'm also usually asking for full lateral and a vertical (whichever vertical helps me stay on the pip). When I have full roll, it always seems like I'm just rolling, as my strafe is just cancelling itself every 180 degrees of roll rotation.

Again, I'm pretty neophyte, but matches with a certain Eagle driver very early on showed me the significance of this maneuver.

Another problem I'm having of late is the erratic positioning of certain ships; I'm assuming it's a lag issue, but there in every match there are two or three pilots that give me a leaping pip, and I don't even bother trying to hit with projectiles (I kid you not, I burned ten tubes of plasma on one guy and am pretty sure I never even had a lucky connect; I'll take video next time I play; it's been discouraging because I have a lot of fun with the Plasma Repeaters).

I'm West Coast US; I'm happy for the ease of getting matches lately, but I don't ever seem to get matched with US players (not that I mind, just an observation).

 

[SushiCW]

Rotational yaw (as in aviation terminology
Yes, your "spiral" was too tight relative to mine (you stayed within my weapons tracking range, but my ship was just a little bit out of your tracking range)
This apparent paradox is due to the screwed up flight dynamics (To my best understanding this is due to the cap on max ship velocity. Basically there is a max speed your ship can not exceed along the helical path, so lateral thrust will "borrow the speed" from the roll and widen the helix. I guess, you can achieve the same or even better result by tuning your roll, but personally in the heat of the battle I can reliably apply only max inputs...)
There is also an issue of pointing in the right direction, so using the pitch may not be desirable..

Yes, ENG pips also have substantial effect. I was flying with 4 in ENG.. I suspect if I had 2 it would put me in your weapons tracking range.

If you really serious about CQC I suggest recording your flights & reviewing them later, perhaps at 1/2 speed.
"Icy" arena also have quite a few "quiet places" so it is possible to just ignore the main game and train/test techniques 1v1 PvP. Especially after the latest change in matchmaking (a lot of inexperienced players)

Thanks, that makes things mostly clearer, although I'm still having trouble visualizing what the rotational yaw is supposed to add to the maneuver. Your advice to find a quiet place to practice is sound, it's something I was planning to do anyway. Really annoying that I have to find a match (with people) before I can practice on my own, though.

 

[kossack]

Your advice to find a quiet place to practice is sound, it's something I was planning to do anyway.

msg me next time you see me in team deathmatch..