Newcomer / Intro Asp exp vs Fdl... lost the battle😭

[Zeus Cubed]

I have taken on a Fer de lance (NPC) with my asp exp and been burned to cinders. Ok, it happens, but I am just wondering wether it was natural or engineered, and other details, because

- as soon as I realized i couldn't win and tried to run for it, I could not. I am completely A rated, but I couldn't gain a meter on him. Is it normal that a Fdl is so swift and agile? Or it is engineered?

- I couldn't jump. Mass locked by a factor 23. But the fdl has a similar mass than aspX, so why? Can this be engineered?

- he kept firing and hitting me even when we were back to back and flying in opposite directions. Can he shoot backwards? I know of turrets, but... is it possible that he was multicrewed even if it was Npc?
If it is like that, and there is no black spot anymore, fighting will just become brute force....

- is there a way to scan a vessel and know in advance if it is multicrewed or engineered, to assess the odds?


However, serves me well, I was beginning to feel too invulnerable...

 

[Ism]

Well, if it was another commander, then yes it's possible. As I understand it, NPC are never engineered....

Now for the FDL, It's an extremely fast and maneuverable ship. Should fly circles around an Asp.

Some say they can't fly with FA off, but I've seen some Conda's (dangerous and deadly class) that can out turn my Engineered Vulture,
so I know that some NPC can turn extremely fast and an FDL certainly could out turn an AspX.

Just make sure when you take on dangerous and deadly class that you know you will be in for the ride of your life.
Since 2.3 dropped elite NPC have gotten better, but the D/D class ships are just as they are titled.
They seem to have the best of everything including spamming SCB's and chaff at just the right moment.

If I'm lying, I'm dying.
G/L commander

 

[aRJay]

Mass lock is not just down to relative size but also proximity so although the FdL is only slightly higher rated for mass lock than the Asp if it was right on top of you it could still have an effect, additionally if there were any spectators in large ships close by they could be hindering as well.

If mass lock is trapping you switch to a High Wake jump to the first star you can select as that isn't affected by mass lock.

 

[Achilles7]

Well, if it was another commander, then yes it's possible. As I understand it, NPC are never engineered....

Now for the FDL, It's an extremely fast and maneuverable ship. Should fly circles around an Asp.

Some say they can't fly with FA off, but I've seen some Conda's (dangerous and deadly class) that can out turn my Engineered Vulture,
so I know that some NPC can turn extremely fast and an FDL certainly could out turn an AspX.

Just make sure when you take on dangerous and deadly class that you know you will be in for the ride of your life.
Since 2.3 dropped elite NPC have gotten better, but the D/D class ships are just as they are titled.
They seem to have the best of everything including spamming SCB's and chaff at just the right moment.

If I'm lying, I'm dying.
G/L commander

They can't fly with FA OFF...no 'buts' about it! FYI the 'some' you mentioned - who proclaim this - includes the person responsible for coding the AI. That's a fairly reliable source, don't you think!?

 

[Para Handy]

....................... As I understand it, NPC are never engineered....

...............

You understand it wrong, NPCs can be engineered, Elite and Deadly NPCs will ALWAYS have modifications, below master will never have them.

 

[Rob_the_Sparky]

Mass lock is a function of "mass lock factor" not ship size. Not seen the numbers recently but if you search for this you should find information you need.
.
Fdl is a fast ship and the Asp is about mid level so not that surprising that he kept up with you.
.
Taking on an Fdl in an Asp is brave but what to look for is the pilot rank more than the ship. A novice in an FDL will not be difficult but an Elite in an Fdl then you are much less likely to win (down to you ship load out and pilot skill). I.e. look for NPC rank as much as ship type to judge your chance of a win.

 

[Zeus Cubed]

Well, he was ranked Expert, exactly like me.

I checked MLFs on coriolis, but they seem similar, so i still do not explain it.

And what about my other questions?
Can Npc be multicrewed?
Is it normal that they can shoot backwards?
Is there some scan to know in advance if they are engineered or multicrewed?

 

[Rob_the_Sparky]

If his mass lock factor is higher than yours then your FSD charge will be slow, not sure whether a small difference in mass lock makes a smaller difference to fsd charging time or not though.
.
Your combat ranking is based on a points system based on number of kills and your rank versus NPC rank killed. Not your combat skill. If you kill a lot of Elite sidewinders then your ranking will increase fast but does not mean your skill has. Be careful as you rank up.
.
NPCs can not as far as I'm aware multi-crew
Shoot backwards - turreted then yes. Their ships are the same as ours and with a very few exceptions the same rules apply.
Engineered - see Malc's post above, higher ranked NPCs use engineered ships. No way of scanning for engineered modules/weapons though.

 

[StiTch]

Just to clear up:

NPCs do not fly FA-Off. It's that black and white. They don't have the capacity. They are remarkable at turning, but that's because at higher levels they have strong throttle control, pip management, and lat/vertical thrust control. Most players - even the higher ranked ones - are not nearly as proficient in these areas, especially given the tendency to get "comfortable" with technique and not take a moment to critique their own methods.

Most challenges about AI/FA Off are misinformed complaints because they were beaten as a result of the above. If you were looking to prove NPCs (or anyone, on a fundamental level) are using FA Off, you cannot just look at turning ability; you would specifically be looking at their movement patterns, whereby you would notice their orientation is far more removed from their vector. Experienced users of FA Off, who have developed the technique beyond a boost turn, will far more readily testify that NPCs cannot do this. When you start seeing NPC ships boost past you and then use their vertical/forward thrust to follow a curve around your ship, ALL while maintaining fire at you, we can start talking about hidden FA Off implementations.

To develop awareness, I recommend enjoying some PvP vids by skilled CMDRs employing FA Off, and pay attention to both a) how the ships move and b) the thruster trails each ship leaves.

All NPCs can really do is use precision ship control to force you into a face tank as much as possible, often to their detriment.

NPCs are also not multicrewed, unless I missed some MAJOR patch notes and was remarkably (un?)lucky in my time at the local RES following 2.3

They DO get some engineered modules but NO special effects. As far as I can tell the engineering on them is also quite poor in that it's unconsidered and doesn't do much to put them at advantage, because it's not planned and doesn't suit what they're doing.

They also do not fire backwards, and every complaint that they can fire in a way that breaks rules typically falls over the moment someone asks for video proof/footage. Many a "I die so often to ships with turreted rail guns" complaint goes silent at such a request.

Finally in answer to OPs circumstances, it just sounds like you got your backside handed to you. That's fine. The FDL is the top dog of born-and-bred combat ships, and the Asp is strong but relies quite heavily on speed and pitch to force enemies into a face tank, where its profile helps in evasion tanking and has the ability to load up on HRPs.

If your ship is intended to be a pure combat ship please post your loadout and I'll do what I can to make reasoned suggestions, but the ship ideally wants to be bulky and use its hardpoints effectively.

EDIT: And regarding the mass lock, if you were in an area with multiple ships, you were probably being mass locked by more than just the FDL.

 

[Zeus Cubed]

What is the maximum backward fire angle achievable by a turreted ship?

 

[wrmiller]

You understand it wrong, NPCs can be engineered, Elite and Deadly NPCs will ALWAYS have modifications, below master will never have them.

This. Went up against an Elite NPC Cobra the other day and it had shields that just wouldn't die. Well, they did die, eventually, but it was quite a fight.

 

[xondk]

I have taken on a Fer de lance (NPC) with my asp exp and been burned to cinders. Ok, it happens, but I am just wondering wether it was natural or engineered, and other details, because

- as soon as I realized i couldn't win and tried to run for it, I could not. I am completely A rated, but I couldn't gain a meter on him. Is it normal that a Fdl is so swift and agile? Or it is engineered?

- I couldn't jump. Mass locked by a factor 23. But the fdl has a similar mass than aspX, so why? Can this be engineered?

- he kept firing and hitting me even when we were back to back and flying in opposite directions. Can he shoot backwards? I know of turrets, but... is it possible that he was multicrewed even if it was Npc?
If it is like that, and there is no black spot anymore, fighting will just become brute force....

- is there a way to scan a vessel and know in advance if it is multicrewed or engineered, to assess the odds?


However, serves me well, I was beginning to feel too invulnerable...

Asp explorer vs FDL?
FDL is a significant better fighter then asp explorer, it is significantly more agile, 23 doesn't come from FDL, must have been a bigger ship nearby as well.

So yeah.
FDL costs, 51 mil.
Asp Exp costs, 6.6 mil.

So yeah, an FDL will have significant advantages against Asp explorer, you 'can' beat them sure,but its going to be rough especially depending on npc level, but yeah, they won't ever be engineered.

 

[Zeus Cubed]

However, yes, I basically lost a fight with an enemy that I knew from the start would have been difficult at best... that's part of the game and of my initial post also. What I was trying to understand is wether i must expect the same level of performance from the next expert FDL I meet or if I have been so unlucky to have found one with engineered modules...
meet

 

[VonBlade]

Apart from the obvious Elite or Deadly Anaconda, nothing makes my sphincter tighten like an FdL. I don't like taking them on in my own heavily engineered FdL, let alone a AspX.

 

[aRJay]

I fly a mostly stock FdL with turrets I can hit a ship that is just off either side of directly behind me or above and behind me with its scanner symbol having a stalk of about 1.5 to 2 times the symbol height when about 2 to 3 rings behind me, but when they were more central than that my turrets were not able to fire. Note many NPC pilots fly better than me.

 

[BigBANGtheory [VR]]

What is the maximum backward fire angle achievable by a turreted ship?

African or European turret?

 

[fossil]

African or European turret?

Whats this ? The Spanish Inquisition ?

++rep

 

[fossil]

I have taken on a Fer de lance (NPC) with my asp exp and been burned to cinders. Ok, it happens, but I am just wondering wether it was natural or engineered, and other details, because

- as soon as I realized i couldn't win and tried to run for it, I could not. I am completely A rated, but I couldn't gain a meter on him. Is it normal that a Fdl is so swift and agile? Or it is engineered?

- I couldn't jump. Mass locked by a factor 23. But the fdl has a similar mass than aspX, so why? Can this be engineered?

- he kept firing and hitting me even when we were back to back and flying in opposite directions. Can he shoot backwards? I know of turrets, but... is it possible that he was multicrewed even if it was Npc?
If it is like that, and there is no black spot anymore, fighting will just become brute force....

- is there a way to scan a vessel and know in advance if it is multicrewed or engineered, to assess the odds?


However, serves me well, I was beginning to feel too invulnerable...

OK - firstly let me say that taking on an FDL in an AspX is utter madness - unless you are a very skillful pilot and have kitted your AspX specifically for combat.
The AspX is a cheap-ish all-round ship. Its weak spot is combat - its shields are poor, its a big target, its not quick and it weapons lack bite.
The FDL is a dedicated fighter - it has better shields, its far more manoeuvrable, its quicker, its much better armed, its designed to be a ship-killer.

Learn to run away in the AspX - you can at least not die against an FDL. A mass lock of 23 indicates there was an Anaconda somewhere close - its the only ship with that size mass-lock factor. The FDL factor is 12. The ApX is 11.
When running away plot a hyperspace jump - mass-lock has no effect on hyperspace charge rate so they can't stop you hyperspacing away.