Atmospheric Landings - please make them challenging and "sim like" :)

[Viking84]

[/Dream Mode]
Just landed in a 737 through heavy rain and wind (as a passenger, in real life), and it hit me how awesome atmospheric flight and landings could be if the devs went down the sim route rather than the "game" route

Currently there isn't really much in Elite that requires flight skills, besides PvP. I would love it if atmospheric flight was implemented with some full on sim style physics, requiring proper piloting skills to counter wind and weather as well as more Earth-like gravity. It would be good if landing would require a bit of planning, checking things such as:

1. Weather conditions, prevailing winds. A local storm might simply make it impossible to land, but players should be given enough information to make an informed decision on a go / no go before attempting landing.
2. Atmospheric densities (going down too fast and steep should result in meeting the rebuy screen). Again, important with experience and enough information before and during the descent.
3. Gravity - combined with the two points above it will contribute to make everything more difficult. Some of the larger ships might simply not be suited to high G atmospheric landings.
4. Fuel usage. Slowing down without burning up would require a fair bit of fuel, made worse by a steep descent or poorly planned landing.
5. Requesting landing permisson early, maybe even from space to ensure correct flight path in to your port / landing pad

And of course, with the increased difficulty should come increased rewards - deliveries and missions to atmospheric planets should pay more than a simple space port docking. Ensure the process is pretty intense, taking maybe about twice as long as a planetary landing takes now. Proper white knuckle stuff

These are all just ideas, but the key here is creating a challenging experience that differs for each planet and space port, and even for every landing due to weather constraints. The player needs to be presented with enough information to make an informed decision before attempting a landing - and enough information during the process to be able to abort the attempt before the point of no return. And most importantly, some combinations of weather, gravity, atmosphere and ship should simply be unlandable, forcing players to think before accepting the mission or attempting a landing, and rewarding those who are capable of landing in rough conditions.

[/Dream Mode]

Anyone else fancy this?

 

[son of khzvoltz]

+rep

a good idea, I wonder if they will introduce docking covers so you can fly inside a large space port to shield your ship from the elements of lets say, a tropical storm, also imersion

 

[-VR- Max Factor]

[/Dream Mode]
Just landed in a 737 through heavy rain and wind (as a passenger, in real life), and it hit me how awesome atmospheric flight and landings could be if the devs went down the sim route rather than the "game" route

Currently there isn't really much in Elite that requires flight skills, besides PvP. I would love it if atmospheric flight was implemented with some full on sim style physics, requiring proper piloting skills to counter wind and weather as well as more Earth-like gravity. It would be good if landing would require a bit of planning, checking things such as:

1. Weather conditions, prevailing winds. A local storm might simply make it impossible to land, but players should be given enough information to make an informed decision on a go / no go before attempting landing.
2. Atmospheric densities (going down too fast and steep should result in meeting the rebuy screen). Again, important with experience and enough information before and during the descent.
3. Gravity - combined with the two points above it will contribute to make everything more difficult. Some of the larger ships might simply not be suited to high G atmospheric landings.
4. Fuel usage. Slowing down without burning up would require a fair bit of fuel, made worse by a steep descent or poorly planned landing.
5. Requesting landing permisson early, maybe even from space to ensure correct flight path in to your port / landing pad

And of course, with the increased difficulty should come increased rewards - deliveries and missions to atmospheric planets should pay more than a simple space port docking. Ensure the process is pretty intense, taking maybe about twice as long as a planetary landing takes now. Proper white knuckle stuff

These are all just ideas, but the key here is creating a challenging experience that differs for each planet and space port, and even for every landing due to weather constraints. The player needs to be presented with enough information to make an informed decision before attempting a landing - and enough information during the process to be able to abort the attempt before the point of no return. And most importantly, some combinations of weather, gravity, atmosphere and ship should simply be unlandable, forcing players to think before accepting the mission or attempting a landing, and rewarding those who are capable of landing in rough conditions.

[/Dream Mode]

Anyone else fancy this?

We will have very similar issues with atmospheric planets as we do now on non-atmospheric planets. If anything non-atmospheric planets are more lethal as there is no aero breaking and no terminal velocity.

Our ships have so much thrust capability that they do not need to worry about atmospheric drag like a plane does. We can use a constant downward thrust into the atmophere without burning up, no need to go down a 1000's mph and use the atmosphere to brake etc.

If anything it will be easier. As long as the pressure isn't too high and our ships don't get crushed. If it is standard earth like, there will be no challange due to the ships power.

 

[Limoncello Lizard]

As Max says, our ships have far more power to eight ratio than anything available in the 21st century. Shields would make a huge difference as well.

 

[Komemiute]

[/Dream Mode]
Just landed in a 737 through heavy rain and wind (as a passenger, in real life), and it hit me how awesome atmospheric flight and landings could be if the devs went down the sim route rather than the "game" route

Currently there isn't really much in Elite that requires flight skills, besides PvP. I would love it if atmospheric flight was implemented with some full on sim style physics, requiring proper piloting skills to counter wind and weather as well as more Earth-like gravity. It would be good if landing would require a bit of planning, checking things such as:

1. Weather conditions, prevailing winds. A local storm might simply make it impossible to land, but players should be given enough information to make an informed decision on a go / no go before attempting landing.
2. Atmospheric densities (going down too fast and steep should result in meeting the rebuy screen). Again, important with experience and enough information before and during the descent.
3. Gravity - combined with the two points above it will contribute to make everything more difficult. Some of the larger ships might simply not be suited to high G atmospheric landings.
4. Fuel usage. Slowing down without burning up would require a fair bit of fuel, made worse by a steep descent or poorly planned landing.
5. Requesting landing permisson early, maybe even from space to ensure correct flight path in to your port / landing pad

And of course, with the increased difficulty should come increased rewards - deliveries and missions to atmospheric planets should pay more than a simple space port docking. Ensure the process is pretty intense, taking maybe about twice as long as a planetary landing takes now. Proper white knuckle stuff

These are all just ideas, but the key here is creating a challenging experience that differs for each planet and space port, and even for every landing due to weather constraints. The player needs to be presented with enough information to make an informed decision before attempting a landing - and enough information during the process to be able to abort the attempt before the point of no return. And most importantly, some combinations of weather, gravity, atmosphere and ship should simply be unlandable, forcing players to think before accepting the mission or attempting a landing, and rewarding those who are capable of landing in rough conditions.

[/Dream Mode]

Anyone else fancy this?

Completely Concur...

 

[fu9ar]

Cool idea but...

https://forums.frontier.co.uk/forumdisplay.php/76-Suggestions-amp-Feature-Requests

 

[Komemiute]

no terminal velocity.

I rarely read a sentence that's more physically frightening... +rep.

 

[Zak Gordon]

As Max says, our ships have far more power to eight ratio than anything available in the 21st century. Shields would make a huge difference as well.

In Frontier and FFE you needed 'atmospheric shielding' to be able to land on planets with thick atmospheres. I'm sure this kind of tech solution could be expanded upon to make it more interesting?

 

[askavir]

This is one of my hopes for atmo planets. Adding some actual spaceship flying gameplay into this spaceship flying game. Gravity already plays a role on flight mechanics, I hope other factors come in like pressure, atmosphere type, extreme heat and extreme cold.

Worst case scenario, atmo planets with weather, rain, mist, for, storms, nights and other phenomena will at least greatly increase flight diversity, on top of much, much better views that just rocks, which would already be nice.

 

[Tadeus72]

It's an arcade game with some sim elements. I don't think they will change it for one type of landable bodies. They will probably add one or two additional factors that will make it more interesting and difficult at times like the gravity we have now (we don't even have different temperatures at the planets despite having the whole heat system ready). I guess the factors that are easiest for them to make would be:
- impaired visibility
- wind (we already have this turbulence effect during some maneuvers on planets)
- corrosive atmosphere (the mechanic is also pretty much ready, they have to just change it to affect external parts firs). You could also use it for high pressure worlds.

The non-aerodynamic form of some ships will probably be hand waived away by saying the shield will form an elliptic sphere that will make it optimal for atmospheric entrance and in-atmosphere cruising or something like this.

To be honest though, I don't think we should think of atmospherics as something that we will se in the coming 2-3 years. Well, maybe some easy to do, lifeless types.

 

[askavir]

It's an arcade game with some sim elements. I don't think they will change it for one type of landable bodies.

It's not one type. atmospheric planets is not the same as earth like planets with life. The vast majority of planets have an atmosphere of some sort, and there are many different types of such planets. Look at all those planets on system maps where you can't land, and check out how diverse they are.

 

[Viking84]

We will have very similar issues with atmospheric planets as we do now on non-atmospheric planets. If anything non-atmospheric planets are more lethal as there is no aero breaking and no terminal velocity.

Our ships have so much thrust capability that they do not need to worry about atmospheric drag like a plane does. We can use a constant downward thrust into the atmophere without burning up, no need to go down a 1000's mph and use the atmosphere to brake etc.

If anything it will be easier. As long as the pressure isn't too high and our ships don't get crushed. If it is standard earth like, there will be no challange due to the ships power.

This all depends on how the devs decide to implement atmospheric drag and heat generation. If they decide that the ships shields are strong enough to deal with it, then you are right, landing will be just like regular non-atmo planets. I hope they don't though, and give us some limitations to balance with heat and stability. Get it wrong and you either burn up or spin uncontrollably to your death.

Ah well, a sim enthusiast can dream...!

Edit: You could even use the heat mechanic to limit the amount of thrust available during descent through an atmosphere, in that way avoiding the overpowered thrusters on our ships from making the landings a trivial affair. The ship would go into a sort of "in atmosphere" mode to prevent overheating, meaning that you would have to place much more emphasis on flight stability and planning.

 

[[VR] Frank_G]

Some nice ideas, but not without concern.

1. Landing should be difficult under harsh weather conditions... yes! Impossible due to a weather condition? The outcry of people that their precious game time is wasted could be heard from here to the moon, if you fill enough atmosphere in between.

2. Yes. Flying headless into a neutron star kills you... flying headless into extreme atmospheric conditions should too. Getting the glide angle right when dropping from orbital cruise should be more important than during non-atmo-landings.

3. To decide which ship can go into an atmosphere and which not is a critical one... of course an eagle and a hauler can, due to its form, but a sidewinder not? Or a Fer-de-Lance can, but an Asp or an Orca can´t? The outcry would be tremendous and understandable. To say, that certain types a far less maneuverable in atmospheres would be a nice touch to this though.

4. Fuel usage being affected by the way you go in, like shallow descent path vs dropping like a rock... but that is a point that will happen naturally. The thrusters have a usage/produced thrust. The more you have to rely on thrusters than on aerodynamics, the higher the fuel usage will get. That could be a good way to determine which ship is good for landing on atmospheric worlds and which not by the way. A T-7 falls out of the sky after 45 minutes, while a Cobra can glide for several hours.

5. Could be cool, depending on the extra time it takes. Spending 10 minutes on an atmospheric landing would keep people from landing, because of their precious credit / hour calculation or they get just bored. Atmospheric landing should take only slightly longer than non-atmospheric landings. The flight model is arcade like and it is good as it is. Atmospheric landings should not break with this concept.

 

[Tadeus72]

Well, IT IS a type. Another type of planet than the ones we can land on now. But sure, there are different varieties.

I mean, if we have an arcade model with some sim elements in space and on non-atmospheric planets I don't see them changing their design philosophy for newly added types of landable bodies.

 

[Vardaugas]

Every ship gets an aerodynamics factor which influences how well they handle in atmosphere. Makes and Adder handle much better than a Type-6 for example. Then you could add an atmospheric approach suite to slot into the planetary approach suite slot which improves the aerodynamics of a ship (and adds ship kit like winglets and stuff) at the cost for some other stats. The ship and your fittings could have a lot of influence on which planets you can land on comfortably (or at all).

 

[DCFCMiguel]

I'd love to see atmospherics in play at some time. There'd be a queue of people ready to land on Earth

But I only want to see it when its right. And the first thing to fix is planetary beige. As much as I love hooning around in my SRV, tiny rocks and the odd rise and fall, with some canyons thrown around aren't the best. That arty shot from FX, from the ice world, does give me some confidence that they are heading in the right direction.

 

[-VR- Max Factor]

This all depends on how the devs decide to implement atmospheric drag and heat generation. If they decide that the ships shields are strong enough to deal with it, then you are right, landing will be just like regular non-atmo planets. I hope they don't though, and give us some limitations to balance with heat and stability. Get it wrong and you either burn up or spin uncontrollably to your death.

Ah well, a sim enthusiast can dream...!

Edit: You could even use the heat mechanic to limit the amount of thrust available during descent through an atmosphere, in that way avoiding the overpowered thrusters on our ships from making the landings a trivial affair. The ship would go into a sort of "in atmosphere" mode to prevent overheating, meaning that you would have to place much more emphasis on flight stability and planning.

As I said, there is no need for heat generation as they can lower themselves in to the atmosphere at a sedate 20mph if they need to. If we are going at speed our ships can handle scooping from a star, I can't really see the heat from a super fast re-entry being a serious issue either.

Today there are huge forces in re-entry, the reason for these intense forces is the atmosphere. When a spacecraft returns from orbit, or elsewhere, it is travelling at anywhere up to ten kilometres (six miles) a second (36000 kph). It needs to slow down considerably to make it to Earth’s surface, and the easiest way to do this is to use the Earth’s atmosphere as a ‘brake’. Spacecraft of today are actually designed to make use of this, so the wide heat shield bears the brunt of deceleration as the spacecraft passes through the atmosphere. We use the atmosphere as a handy way to decelerate spacecraft, rather than relying on fuel alone.

In ED, we do not need the atmosphere to decelerate our ships. We can use the near infinite amount of thrust available in our ships, so there is no need to be heading in to the atmosphere at 36000 kph like the space craft of today.

 

[[VR] Frank_G]

As I said, there is no need for heat generation as they can lower themselves in to the atmosphere at a sedate 20mph if they need to. If we are going at speed our ships can handle scooping from a star, I can't really see the heat from re-entry being a serious issue either.

Today there are huge forces in re-entry, the reason for these intense forces is the atmosphere. When a spacecraft returns from orbit, or elsewhere, it is travelling at anywhere up to ten kilometres (six miles) a second. It needs to slow down considerably to make it to Earth’s surface, and the easiest way to do this is to use the Earth’s atmosphere as a ‘brake’. Spacecraft of today are actually designed to make use of this, so the wide heat shield bears the brunt of deceleration as the spacecraft passes through the atmosphere. We use the atmosphere as a handy way to decelerate spacecraft, rather than relying on fuel alone.

In ED, we do not need the atmosphere to decelerate our ships. We can use the near infinite amount of thrust available in our ships, so there is no need to be heading in to the atmosphere at 36000 kph like the space craft of today (that is the top end of speed).

Yes, our ships can handle the heat, but can the people on the ground? Dozens or hundreds of ships coming in like a constant shower of 500 ton asteroids, will create atmospheric shockwaves, that would kill everything on a planet.

 

[777Driver]

[/Dream Mode]
Just landed in a 737 through heavy rain and wind (as a passenger, in real life), and it hit me how awesome atmospheric flight and landings could be if the devs went down the sim route rather than the "game" route

Currently there isn't really much in Elite that requires flight skills, besides PvP. I would love it if atmospheric flight was implemented with some full on sim style physics, requiring proper piloting skills to counter wind and weather as well as more Earth-like gravity. It would be good if landing would require a bit of planning, checking things such as:

1. Weather conditions, prevailing winds. A local storm might simply make it impossible to land, but players should be given enough information to make an informed decision on a go / no go before attempting landing.
2. Atmospheric densities (going down too fast and steep should result in meeting the rebuy screen). Again, important with experience and enough information before and during the descent.
3. Gravity - combined with the two points above it will contribute to make everything more difficult. Some of the larger ships might simply not be suited to high G atmospheric landings.
4. Fuel usage. Slowing down without burning up would require a fair bit of fuel, made worse by a steep descent or poorly planned landing.
5. Requesting landing permisson early, maybe even from space to ensure correct flight path in to your port / landing pad

And of course, with the increased difficulty should come increased rewards - deliveries and missions to atmospheric planets should pay more than a simple space port docking. Ensure the process is pretty intense, taking maybe about twice as long as a planetary landing takes now. Proper white knuckle stuff

These are all just ideas, but the key here is creating a challenging experience that differs for each planet and space port, and even for every landing due to weather constraints. The player needs to be presented with enough information to make an informed decision before attempting a landing - and enough information during the process to be able to abort the attempt before the point of no return. And most importantly, some combinations of weather, gravity, atmosphere and ship should simply be unlandable, forcing players to think before accepting the mission or attempting a landing, and rewarding those who are capable of landing in rough conditions.

[/Dream Mode]

Anyone else fancy this?

Going to be a party pooper here, am really not expecting much more than some excellent visuals, perhaps some heavy turbulence, extremely high winds on some planets, low visibility etc.

What I really don't want to see is artificial difficulty put in for 'gameplay reasons' They already added nonsensical thruster behaviour when pitching nose down FA-ON whilst on non atmospheric worlds.

These aren't aluminium/Carbon fiber jets designed in the 199x's. Our ships don't need to rely on lift to stay airborne or control surfaces to maneuver, they have unlimited thrust on tap, are able to scoop from Neutron stars, launch from 6G+ plus worlds with ease whilst having an overall mass exceeding 2000 tonnes, fuel usage has no correlation with the amount of thrust the engines generate.


Would definitely like to see the devs get creative with atmospheres, but no to adding artificial difficulty.

 

[Viking84]

Would definitely like to see the devs get creative with atmospheres, but no to adding artificial difficulty.

I kind of see your point - it would be silly if this was out of step with the rest of the game. That said we already have lots of strange artificial limitations, such as speed in space, yaw and pitch rates being constant even in FA off, no "decoupled" mode with assisted yaw, pitch and roll but free translation. All of these are in for gameplay reasons and make our 34th century wonders of engineering fly like 1930's bi-planes (or a 747 in the case of the larger ships).

Considering that then I don't think creating a consistent, challenging but explainable planetary landing experience shouldn't be outside the realm of possibility

Edit: The one thing we don't know anything about is how the shields on our ship interact with an atmosphere, and what, if any, impact the shape of our ships will have. Possibilities for some interesting flight there. If all they add is a bit of turbulence and some pretty visuals I will be a bit disappointed... maybe not surprised, but disappointed.