Aviaries: what are you expecting

[Spiderhawk]

Hey everyone

Today I wanted to discuss the heavily requested feature aviaries.
Now I know there’s many posts and many requests in regards to aviaries. I wanted to drive this discussion towards how you want them to look and function in your zoo. Hey if cities skylines and prehistoric kingdom can give us aviaries so can PZ so I’m hopeful.
While living in Seward Alaska, I would visit the Sealife center (check it out on Alaska Animal Rescue). There is an amazing seabird aviary covered with a large awning and guests can enter it or go to a lower level to watch the birds dive. It is filled with horned and tufted Puffins, Auklets, common Murrs, oystercatchers, Snews, harlequin ducks, kittiwakes and the list goes on.
Growing up near the Beardsley zoo in Bridgeport, CT I got to see the Andean condor in a dome like aviary and there is an indoor Central/South American greenhouse aviary building. Similar at the Vancouver aquarium there is one with sloths and caimans alongside very beautiful birds. Either way the latter two you are walking through to enjoy.
I used to volunteer at a raptor rehabilitation center known as VINS and all of the exhibits for non releasable were covered to prevent the birds from flying away but they all were built and shaped the same way with a few small trees, logs or replicas etc to look more natural. While the water trays were elevated their food trays were on the ground closer for guests viewing. There are mews (building for birds, specifically falconry birds) to keep them on display yet give them enough space until they could be released.

I’ve seen some peoples workshop “aviaries” and they look cool and I hope they can use them when and if the feature comes out.

I wonder if PZ will make them similar to how they have exhibits, they will make them with all theme designs (or let us design) and I’m hoping we can add foliage and rocks to our hearts content. I’d certainly be disappointed if the birds act like the exhibit animals.

Obviously guests cannot go into an exhibit with a bald eagle (I love BEs but they are vicious) but the guests certainly can get closer to a toucan or a hornbill.
If you have a creation feel free to share it, I didn’t want to make this a wishlist on bird species you want but feel free to mention said birds while talking about how you want aviaries to function and mention/show any real aviary you have been to.

 

[NZFanatic]

Toucans and hornbills require far more specialist care than a bald eagle, so the opposite is true. Bald eagles are not vicious at all and would not attack a human, and are generally like seagulls in parts of America (Alaska).

Edit: In saying that, I believe I know of at least one walkthrough aviary with toucans in it. Not sure about hornbills in general, but I know the great hornbill requires fairly specialist care.

 

[Spiderhawk]

Toucans and hornbills require far more specialist care than a bald eagle, so the opposite is true. Bald eagles are not vicious at all and would not attack a human, and are generally like seagulls in parts of America (Alaska).

Edit: In saying that, I believe I know of at least one walkthrough aviary with toucans in it. Not sure about hornbills in general, but I know the great hornbill requires fairly specialist care.

I have been charged at and screamed at by bald eagles in captivity and I’ve seen them kill their prey. I don’t think guests should be in an enclosure with them. While you can get respectfully close to one in the wild, just don’t give it a reason to come at you.

 

[LN]

Blijdorp has a real nice walk through habitat with several species of Vultures. Would be cool to have.

 

[Cocolori]

From my own work with birds I would recommend against getting too up close and personal with hornbills - at least hand reared ones. Those beaks are not just for show. Ours was fine with ladies but not keen on the blokes at all and even with the girls he was pretty unpredictable! Eagles though - also not where I'd want to be if they were hand reared - we had a young goldie who's curiosity made her a menace and we'd never clean out the aviary without two people in there: one to distract / protect the other and one to do the work. Eagles are smart (much smarter than owls or a lot of other raptors) and like a lot of scavengers problem solving is a big part of their success. In contrast goshawks, falcons etc. are clever but they have a strong prey drive and are very reactive so they tend to work on instinct but be less... malicious. Eagles are smart enough to plot revenge against you if you annoy them...!

 

[Iben]

Personally, I'm expecting piece by piece aviaries. Given the track record of Frontier where there's a heavy focus on PBP construction in the Planet games, I wouldn't at all be surprised to see that aviaries are going to be custom buildable. So many things in habitats are customizable, from shelters to climbing frames to barriers, so to me it feels as if not doing that with aviaries would break that pattern. A lot of things could have been just prefabs in PZ, and Frontier went out of their way to give us custom stuff as much as possible. So to me; I'd assume that they wouldn't go for the exhibit box route unless they've exhausted all other options.

Especially given how aviaries are much more variable in shapes and sizes than terrariums ( yes, there are different terrariums, but most of them can be covered with big and small boxes) and how many of them are based around walkthrough experiences, I don't think an exhibit box system could ever do them justice.

When talking about the practical side of it all, I think that I would be satisfied with instead of getting a "flying" system, getting a "perching" system. This would be a variation to the climbing system, where flying animals would fly from one perchable object to the other instead of really flying "free". To me, such a system would cover pretty much how birds behave in zoos, so I don't need much more than that. If that would be the sacrifice we would have to make in order to get free build aviaries, I'd be all in.

 

[ElectricMonk]

I agree with Iben, in that (if they're added) aviaries are likely to be piece-by-piece. As he says, a 'perching' system would work fine for larger flying birds (those that perch anyway) - water birds could be done without necessarily needing to fly (or only flying from ground to ground locations using the same system as current animals use). The only issue with this would be for small perching birds because too many would adversely affect performance. They could be done using an exhibit-style system (with looped animations) but this would preclude their use in walk-through aviaries. Alternatively, for large, walkthrough aviaries, I've suggested a mechanic for butterflies (so we can build butterfly houses), which might work for small birds too: Specifically, butterflies (or small birds) could be added as spawners (possibly looking like a feeder, one per species) - keepers would have to visit these, just as they do for exhibits, except that all linked animals would be treated as a single entity. They could also have climatic requirements (Temperature, not humidity) controlled with the already in-game coolers and heaters. Guests would view the zone around these as if they were a single animal.

 

[FutureFear]

My best guess, they either will work like exhibits, only larger and with fencing instead of glass.
OR
They go all out, and perhaps make the traversable area for (flying) birds 3D, similar to the spheres around maintenance buildings for negative guest impact. together with some nice new aviary roof pieces and new habitat barriers for aviaries. (would be nice)
Perhaps even introduce a new button on birds with the option to "clip" their wings, so they can't fly off and stay low to the ground.

The third option, we'll never get aviaries or flying birds in the first place.

 

[Sclurp]

I don’t want aviaries if we only get 4 birds to place inside em.

 

[Aidan635]

Aviaries are a tricky subject to me. Of course I want them, and they're definitely essential to a zoo management game. Birds are at the core of every zoo... every zoo has maybe 50 mammals and reptiles but then has like 200 bird species to back that up, to support and balance out the lineup. I'm not saying we will get 200 birds but you know what I mean, they're essential.

As far as aviaries go, I think they'll be similar to exhibits but defined more advanced. Obviously, they'll be larger and more customizable, and I'm sure you wont be able to take a fence and drag it around and add a top to it. I mean, Frontier has suprised and shocked us before with its advancements (such as deep sea diving) and anything is possible. I think you'll get a menu that you'll have to pick enrichment items such as plants, perches, and branches (researchable outside of Sandbox). The birds will obviously fly, and the introduction of the aqautic pack definitely makes that more acheiveable.

I think birds will come soon, they have to. Definitely next year, as it is an essential thing that the community really wants, similar to the aquatic pack. This pack shows that they know what the community wants, and they are delivering. Hopefully they take that same mindset and apply it to birds.

 

[Spiderhawk]

Whoops accidentally sent my message twice and can’t delete the first one

 

[Spiderhawk]

my wishful thinking is that aviaries will be more like an expansion pack then the traditional dlc. Therefore I am in the hopes that there will be multiple birds from each continent. 4 will not cut it. For fun the other day I made prefabs for what I think aviaries could look like (il show pics later).

 

[NZFanatic]

I don’t want aviaries if we only get 4 birds to place inside em.

Yeah, that's kind of a valid concern now. Although, I have always said that they could do an Aquatic Pack with only four animals and that it wouldn't need to deviate from the established norm (I just didn't think it would cover all possible aquatic types and imagined it would only be saltwater/coastal animals). Birds, though, are entirely too broad a category to reduce to only four animals.

What would we get? A macaw, a cockatoo, an eagle, and a toucan? Hard to fill a zoo with just those. However, if we look at Iben's idea with "perchable" birds rather than "free-flying" birds then I wonder if making them would be easier, i.e. somewhere in between habitat and exhibit animals.

 

[Bearcat9948]

Yeah, that's kind of a valid concern now. Although, I have always said that they could do an Aquatic Pack with only four animals and that it wouldn't need to deviate from the established norm (I just didn't think it would cover all possible aquatic types and imagined it would only be saltwater/coastal animals). Birds, though, are entirely too broad a category to reduce to only four animals.

What would we get? A macaw, a cockatoo, an eagle, and a toucan? Hard to fill a zoo with just those. However, if we look at Iben's idea with "perchable" birds rather than "free-flying" birds then I wonder if making them would be easier, i.e. somewhere in between habitat and exhibit animals.

I think BeyondDrewTV, Geekism and SDanWolf brought up a very good point on the Take2Podcast yesterday when discussing the Aquatic pack. It's entirely possible that for now, we're only getting 4 animals because Frontier is so focused on adding new mechanics to the game, finding different ways to do things in order to figure out the optimal situation etc. So, once they feel the game is where it needs to be mechanically (So, full color and pattern variations, all animals that need "deep swimming" have it, aviaries in the game, animal talks etc), then we might start getting much bigger dlcs in terms of animal size, similar to how PC got mostly ride-oriented dlcs towards the second half of it's dlc life cycle.

I think for an aviary dlc, which I don't see why they wouldn't be trying to make happen at this point, if it works the way I think it will, we'll probably get 5 animals. I see aviaries working similar to the exhibit system, just being more modular and offering more creativity/versatility. Having walkthrough aviaries would be awesome, but I wouldn't expect them at first. I would guess the first pack, which would introduce the initial aviary concept, would have some quintessential birds; a parrot, a toucan, an eagle or hawk, an owl and perhaps a Kookaburra. That's a decent amount of variety, so it would hold people over until the time came to add a dlc which adds, say 10-15 birds.

I am hopeful that this is the case for the current Aquatic pack, and we'll get a larger Aquatic pack pt.2 down the line with around 10-15 animals, such as sea turtles, some more penguins, sea lions, another seal, another otter species and perhaps a beaver and/or capybara.

 

[NL_Mutso]

I think BeyondDrewTV, Geekism and SDanWolf brought up a very good point on the Take2Podcast yesterday when discussing the Aquatic pack. It's entirely possible that for now, we're only getting 4 animals because Frontier is so focused on adding new mechanics to the game, finding different ways to do things in order to figure out the optimal situation etc. So, once they feel the game is where it needs to be mechanically (So, full color and pattern variations, all animals that need "deep swimming" have it, aviaries in the game, animal talks etc), then we might start getting much bigger dlcs in terms of animal size, similar to how PC got mostly ride-oriented dlcs towards the second half of it's dlc life cycle.

I don't think it's a weird idea for when the content in the free update is replaced with just tweaks/bug-fixing/balancing, chances for more animals in a paid dlc could be an option.

I actually prefer a smaller DLC with new features before they go big. At least get the basics right before moving on.

Aviaries; my guess would be november/december 2021. Somewhere near the 2nd anniversary. Something big during that time
I'm expecting something basic, you get to pick 3-4 different sizes aviaries, select the species you want (like the exhibit animals) and it will have similar look/feel like JWE's pteradons.

 

[Iben]

As far as aviaries go, I think they'll be similar to exhibits but defined more advanced. Obviously, they'll be larger and more customizable, and I'm sure you wont be able to take a fence and drag it around and add a top to it. I mean, Frontier has suprised and shocked us before with its advancements (such as deep sea diving) and anything is possible. I think you'll get a menu that you'll have to pick enrichment items such as plants, perches, and branches (researchable outside of Sandbox). The birds will obviously fly, and the introduction of the aqautic pack definitely makes that more acheiveable.

These two things do contradict each other though. The exhibit boxes are looped animations, which means they are a predetermined path, so the aquatic pack changes nothing to the feasibility of that, as it is already feasible today. In contrary, the fact that navigation in a 3d space is now possible is actually a benefit for introducing birds in habitats rather than in boxes. Besides, flying is probably not the issue here, given that PlanCo had flying pigeons that could interact with buildings. I think the issue is more of defining the 3d space with a habitat and working with the upper border of said habitat.

I think for an aviary dlc, which I don't see why they wouldn't be trying to make happen at this point, if it works the way I think it will, we'll probably get 5 animals. I see aviaries working similar to the exhibit system, just being more modular and offering more creativity/versatility. Having walkthrough aviaries would be awesome, but I wouldn't expect them at first

See, and that's where I think there's evidence that exhibit system isn't going to be the way they're going to go. The exhibit system as is can easily be extended to make aviary boxes ( for example the aviary in JWE ), and with the fact that so many people want birds, you'd assume that they'd already have it by now. If you're going for a bird system using boxes, that in itself would have been easier than figuring out the deep swimming. Because again, it means fixed paths, which means that you can make a single continuos animation instead of making animations that would then have to integrate with a path finding system.

So the fact that they haven't brought it out by now suggests to me that they are trying to make custom aviaries possible. Because lets face it. If you have a community that is asking for birds and you are going to go for an easier route, then from a marketing standpoint you'd already have brought it out by now. I'm thinking they're doing the same thing as with the deep swimming, and that they're working really hard on getting us birds as habitat animals instead.

 

[Danny_zoo]

I think BeyondDrewTV, Geekism and SDanWolf brought up a very good point on the Take2Podcast yesterday when discussing the Aquatic pack. It's entirely possible that for now, we're only getting 4 animals because Frontier is so focused on adding new mechanics to the game, finding different ways to do things in order to figure out the optimal situation etc. So, once they feel the game is where it needs to be mechanically (So, full color and pattern variations, all animals that need "deep swimming" have it, aviaries in the game, animal talks etc), then we might start getting much bigger dlcs in terms of animal size, similar to how PC got mostly ride-oriented dlcs towards the second half of it's dlc life cycle.

I think for an aviary dlc, which I don't see why they wouldn't be trying to make happen at this point, if it works the way I think it will, we'll probably get 5 animals. I see aviaries working similar to the exhibit system, just being more modular and offering more creativity/versatility. Having walkthrough aviaries would be awesome, but I wouldn't expect them at first. I would guess the first pack, which would introduce the initial aviary concept, would have some quintessential birds; a parrot, a toucan, an eagle or hawk, an owl and perhaps a Kookaburra. That's a decent amount of variety, so it would hold people over until the time came to add a dlc which adds, say 10-15 birds.

I am hopeful that this is the case for the current Aquatic pack, and we'll get a larger Aquatic pack pt.2 down the line with around 10-15 animals, such as sea turtles, some more penguins, sea lions, another seal, another otter species and perhaps a beaver and/or capybara.

I agree that it is definitely something that seems to have been in the works since before the base game was even released. Everything that I know up to this point tells me these particular mechanics might be a lot more problematic for Frontier than even the aquatic ones. I still believe that their aim since the inception of the game was to release them as habitat animals and allow for modular building to dictate the flow of the aviaries. At this point if they had given up on that, and birds were to be included as fixed looping animations, we would have gotten them already.

The problem with that initial concept that you mentioned, and that seems to have become Frontier's pattern is that four birds could never capture the range of bird families showcased in zoos. You mentioned a parrot, toucan, eagle/hawk, owl, and a Kookaburra being quintessential but that is mostly subjective and it really depends on who is doing the picking. For me I would always pick a Macaw over a parrot, the question is which Macaw (Hyacinth, Scarlet, Military, Blue and Yellow?) A toucan would be awesome, but there are so many species to pick from and does it mean that we then get no Hornbills? They are equally as impressive and common in zoos, and much bigger in size. You mention an eagle or hawk, ok we can only have one, and there too many species to pick from, but where does that leave vultures, a greatly missed bird in this game, as it can be used in a number of ways. You then mention the Kookaburra, but you could as well have mentioned a thousand other bird species, because even in Oceania I can think of many other species that would be a lot common in zoos.

But forget everything above, eliminate all of those species, what about the Pelican? never mind the species, it was in the original concept art map drawn by Frontier devs. What about ducks, any species that can place in water? What about the dozens of African bird species needed to complement our beautiful savannah exhibits, the guinea fowl is a popular pick in this forum. What about a Condor, wouldn't this be considered quintessential? Specially if we are to apply the often used logic in this forum of size matters, unless that does not apply to birds.

In short, none of this is to pick on your choices for quintessential, I understand that you were trying to find a compromise and settle with the hopes that at a later point Frontier would visit again the avian kingdom. The problem is that this is the same hope that is being talked about in this forum each and every time, and is starting to feel like a fools hope. When SA was released, many complained about all the missing species, certain forum voices said they can still add them to future DLCs, ok. When Australia was released, the same thing happened, the same voices said, they can still come in the future. Now with the four animals in the aquatic DLC, already some voices are expecting not one but two additional support DLCs that add more aquatic creatures. Keep in mind that there are a ton of zoo 101 animals still missing from this game, antelopes, leopards, rhinos, primates, small mammals, etc. So when is this 12 bird sequel DLC supposed to arrive in 2022? maybe 2023? what about 2024 and 2025? Maybe Planet Zoo 2? not sure, what I do know is that the only way for us to get all the animals that deserve to be in this game, is for Frontier to add more human resources to this game, that is all.

 

[Danny_zoo]

These two things do contradict each other though. The exhibit boxes are looped animations, which means they are a predetermined path, so the aquatic pack changes nothing to the feasibility of that, as it is already feasible today. In contrary, the fact that navigation in a 3d space is now possible is actually a benefit for introducing birds in habitats rather than in boxes. Besides, flying is probably not the issue here, given that PlanCo had flying pigeons that could interact with buildings. I think the issue is more of defining the 3d space with a habitat and working with the upper border of said habitat.



See, and that's where I think there's evidence that exhibit system isn't going to be the way they're going to go. The exhibit system as is can easily be extended to make aviary boxes ( for example the aviary in JWE ), and with the fact that so many people want birds, you'd assume that they'd already have it by now. If you're going for a bird system using boxes, that in itself would have been easier than figuring out the deep swimming. Because again, it means fixed paths, which means that you can make a single continuos animation instead of making animations that would then have to integrate with a path finding system.

So the fact that they haven't brought it out by now suggests to me that they are trying to make custom aviaries possible. Because lets face it. If you have a community that is asking for birds and you are going to go for an easier route, then from a marketing standpoint you'd already have brought it out by now. I'm thinking they're doing the same thing as with the deep swimming, and that they're working really hard on getting us birds as habitat animals instead.

Bingo

 

[ChicagoZohan]

I don’t want aviaries if we only get 4 birds to place inside em.

4 in the aviary DLC but then they'll sprinkle birds into future DLC is fine by me

 

[RabidOkapi]

In short, none of this is to pick on your choices for quintessential, I understand that you were trying to find a compromise and settle with the hopes that at a later point Frontier would visit again the avian kingdom. The problem is that this is the same hope that is being talked about in this forum each and every time, and is starting to feel like a fools hope. When SA was released, many complained about all the missing species, certain forum voices said they can still add them to future DLCs, ok. When Australia was released, the same thing happened, the same voices said, they can still come in the future. Now with the four animals in the aquatic DLC, already some voices are expecting not one but two additional support DLCs that add more aquatic creatures. Keep in mind that there are a ton of zoo 101 animals still missing from this game, antelopes, leopards, rhinos, primates, small mammals, etc. So when is this 12 bird sequel DLC supposed to arrive in 2022? maybe 2023? what about 2024 and 2025? Maybe Planet Zoo 2? not sure, what I do know is that the only way for us to get all the animals that deserve to be in this game, is for Frontier to add more human resources to this game, that is all.

One thing to note here is that having more aquatic animals does not mean a full DLC pack dedicated to them. Same goes for any type really.

And maybe they do introduce birds fairly early this year, and maybe it is only four unique bird rigs. That doesn’t meant we will be limited to just four forever. They may be trying to get it right and implement the base structure needed for success.

After the groundwork is set, DLC could appear much more fleshed out. Maybe they give 3-4 animals and a bird and aquatic each time to flesh out all rosters.

A North America pack could look something like:
Puma
Alligator(semi-aquatic)
Moose
Bald Eagle (Flying)
California Sea Lion (aquatic)
Maybe another animal?

Who knows? My main point here is that birds and aquatics could all be their own pack of four, but fleshed out over the course of each pack to add to all roster types. There will always be animals missing; the animals kingdom is so incredibly large and diverse, and I think expectations are unbelievably high for some in the forum. I wouldn’t expect more than a dozen (give or take a few) of either aquatics or flying animals for PZ.

And I don’t think the solution is hire more people to give us what we want.