Avoiding Dogpiling - using Demand more actively in Community Goals to discourage people from dogpiling on one side for the rewards.

Qualitatively, Mahon has had a decade of development as a character
My point on rigging was based on qualitative measures around the current Powerplay rankings.

As I am certain many players who don't care, nor follow, the Powerplay sphere. They would just look up who's the highest ranking power of the two in game and then support them by default. Assuming they will be the winner.

Thus the qualitative skew would have been for Mahon to win from the beginning.
 
As I am certain many players who don't care, nor follow, the Powerplay sphere. They would just look up who's the highest ranking power of the two in game and then support them by default. Assuming they will be the winner.
If that's the distinguisher, Grom (4th) would have been expected to at least get the early lead over Winters (11th) in the CG just before this one - which was, again, quantitatively completely equal.

Instead they were outnumbered 2:1 in the early hours and never improved on that position.

Players not following Powerplay at all, but who want to ensure they back the winning side, have the much easier approach of "wait a day before signing up" (possibly because they only play weekends anyway) to see who's going to win, rather than trying to dig through the Powerplay interface they have no interest in to figure out which Power is in the lead there.

The questions then are, if Frontier had known in advance that Mahon was going to be 3:1 supported over Kaine in the early hours of the CG (and I doubt their knowledge is that precise, though "Mahon wins" is a reasonable guess from the days before Kaine was a Power at all)
- should they have tried to rebalance that by adding quantitative advantages to the Kaine side?
- if so, what sort?

There was a long period of me not playing, so I've a question: is there history to why CG design is so safe? In particular, it's the same reward for each side. Everything we're saying would go out the window in an instant if different sides offered different modules. I'm assuming, though, that they're hesitant to create too much FOMO – to upset players who want both, who want everything.
I think there's two aspects to this.

1) Previous CGs did sometimes have different modules for each side, on occasion. But also in previous CGs you weren't prevented from signing up to both sides at once, so people who wanted both modules just needed to do top 75% for both sides, or similar (which is easier than getting top 50% for a single side).

2) The slightest hint of quantitative differences in CG setup gets Frontier accused of manipulating players to make sure one side wins [1]. I've seen Frontier get accused of bias because the timing of the BGS tick relative to the CG start and end times was felt to advantage one side over another. When the CG is between two Powerplay sides and therefore has a chance to affect the underlying Powerplay competition as well, it's even less likely that Frontier will want to be seen as taking sides [2].

But I don't see how adding different rewards to each side would solve the problem of one side or another getting a runaway lead ... unless Frontier were willing to add additional rewards to the losing side after a few days, of course? Now that would be controversial!


[1] I personally think this is obviously rubbish in the majority of cases (there is one CG out of the last ten years where I think Frontier did lean on the rewards to obtain a particular result, though probably didn't actually need to). Frontier doesn't have to put the second side in at all if they want no possibility of them winning (and has done this on several occasions!), and given their inability to consistently and accurately estimate how much hauling will take place for non-competitive CGs the idea that they're capable of plotting out the results of CGs and aggregate player behaviour that far in advance in a competitive scenario is highly implausible. Taking this CG pair as an example, there's no evidence that it matters in the slightest to the wider storyline who wins (the victories of Archer over Patreus and Winters over Grom had no wider effect whatsoever and likely won't be mentioned again either). But it's a widespread perception and I can understand Frontier not wanting to be bothered with it.

[2] Which is a pity, because two of the closest CGs in terms of which side actually won - where the winner really wasn't clear until several days in - were ones with a distinctly asymmetric setup. One of them didn't even have the two sides using the same type of CG!
 
How about BOTH sides get the winning rewards and players gain merit Care Packages according to their contribution?
That way, people can lean into roleplay more and new people who play 18/7 don't have an advantage over veteran weekend warriors.
 
I don't care enough to check but I'm fairly sure there used to be CGs that offered different modules. What usually happened there was that whichever module the player base decided was better ended up winning.

Yes there were, there was one where we got either an Advanced Missile Launcher or Multi-cannon.
According to the forum experts the people playing went for the wrong one.

It was back around the time we got the ferry to the Guardian sites.
 
So do something like having rewards scaled solely with the contributions, so it doesn't matter which side you support? Pure madness, it'll never catch on.

That would solve the issue.

Or make it two tiered:

Personal reward = total contributed regardless of to who. So not tier based for personal reward. Deliver 500t for one side and 500 for another, its the same as 1000 for either.

CG effect for factions - tiered and ideology based.
 
If that's the distinguisher, Grom (4th) would have been expected to at least get the early lead over Winters (11th) in the CG just before this one - which was, again, quantitatively completely equal.

Instead they were outnumbered 2:1 in the early hours and never improved on that position.
I see your point. That CG seemed like Archer powerplay teamed up with Winters in that case. Without being FDev and crunching the numbers though hard to say definitively.

The same could be true with Mahon and Li Yong-Rui powers possibly joining together early in the current CG. Kaine really doesn't have a strong Powerplay Allie (outside of Mahon supporters) to join in with her, so she would have that disadvantage.

Agreed though, most outcomes in the current CG design is decided in the first few hours. Then everyone just jumps on the winning side for ease of getting the goodies.

- should they have tried to rebalance that by adding quantitative advantages to the Kaine side?
- if so, what sort?
I like DemiserofD's idea, creates a diminishing return and gets players who just want money to try and naturally balance the competition better. That definitely adds complexity though to the games systems and how the CG works. Which probably makes it a non-starter with FDev.

Based on current game mechanics, best outcome is to make a baseline materials grab for all commanders. Something relatively easy to get that doesn't sway the numbers too much, but gets people involved. Then retain Powerplay merits and goodies to just the winning power.

Really only way I can see a Power Vs Power CG working without changing the game mechanics.Then you get a little closer to seeing actual Powerplay supporters results.
 
That CG seemed like Archer powerplay teamed up with Winters in that case. Without being FDev and crunching the numbers though hard to say definitively.
Almost certainly - though Grom has previously been able to beat the Federation (represented then by Hudson) in a competitive CG by a 2:1 margin back in 2021. Of course, that was a CZ goal rather than a mining one, and had a lot fewer players show up in total.

Really only way I can see a Power Vs Power CG working without changing the game mechanics.Then you get a little closer to seeing actual Powerplay supporters results.
I think the problem is that almost any pair of Powers - even if the two Powers themselves have reasonably similar player bases - is going to have supporters of the other ten and neutral still have a favourite of some sort. So the majority of the CG result is still going to be decided by people who are fans of CGs in general, and will haul/fight/etc. to top 25% or above because it's something to do.

Looking at this week's Powerplay Reinforcement numbers so far (not necessarily completely representative of the longer-term trends, but probably close enough in terms of "who's where") the Powers form the following rough tiers (higher within that tier on the left) for a total of just over 36 million control points so far this week.
  • Aisling Duval / Li Yong-Rui: about 5 million
  • Yuri Grom / A Lavigny-Duval / Jerome Archer / Felicity Winters / Edmund Mahon: 3-4 million
  • Pranav Antal / Archon Delaine / Nakato Kaine: about 2 million
  • Denton Patreus / Zemina Torval: about 1 million
So a CG pairing off powers at the same tier might stand more of a chance of being even (though Grom/Winters wasn't), but it's still going to be decided by the 90%+ of players who support neither (probably about half of whom aren't pledged at all).

(And a CG restricted to signup of those pledged is just the existing "who can reinforce all their systems the fastest?" contest of Powerplay itself)
 
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