AX Meta bound to change / adapt?

Okay, I'm new to this whole AX thing so please bear with me. I have watched a bunch of tutorial videos, but am having problems implementing them in actual play.

Main problem: the "meta" AX ships are all 100% optimized to fight Interceptors. But in current instances, there are waves of Scouts that have to be cleared away. And that is pretty frustrating when your ship is packing only Gauss cannons. Especially when you can't afford ammo synths.

I understand there have been AX CZs since last year, but haven't played during that time so I don't know if they worked like the ones now. So, is there already a recommendation how to change the hardpoint setup of, say, a Chieftain?
MB replace one class 2 Gauss with a class 3 AX Multi?
Or work with Salvation Shards instead?

Ceterum censeo the 4-weapon-limit needs to go. ^^
 
Don't know about a chieftain.
I have 3 gauss and 1 ax multi cannon. I also have a heat vent beam. The beam and turret are for the scouts. The gauss is for the interceptors with beam for shoveling off some heat or mostly for the interceptor shield.

I use a cutter, though. So there's more room for that sort of thing.
 
I had the same problem and asked a similar question in the AXI discord chat recently.

This is my own experience of what I did next, your mileage may vary - I encourage you to experiment :)

Just know that what you're trying to do is genuinely hard. It does take practice, don't get discouraged early on :)



I didn't get much into Thargoid fighting previously. I only did it when Thargoids attacked the bubble, so I was really only interested in CZ's, not hunting Interceptors alone.

Originally I used a hybrid Chieftain that was mostly like a knockoff AXI meta-ish build that used 2 class 3 AX Multis and 2 class 1 Gauss. That way I was able to get a decent feel for the ship whilst killing Scouts, and I tried to shoot the scouts with the Gauss as best I could, giving me practice targeting them (but also still being able to kill them with the Multi turrets :)) in CZ's I just avoided the interceptors as much as possible or tried to use the NPC's as cover on attack runs, etc. Long story short, I only managed to partially kill one cyclops (assisted by the CZ NPC's who kept it busy) in months of off-on AX combat and it was incredibly hard and not fun. I mostly stuck to killing Scouts and running from Interceptors, a smart move IMO.

When the war started I decided to improve my Thargoid killing game, so I asked the same sort of question you posed here in AXI chat, from the advice I got there I did the following:


I built the exact AXI Chieftain. No homebrew, I did it to the letter. I watched a lot of AXI guides on how to fight interceptors. I was told that if you can practice with Cyclops fighting and get comfortable with it, you'll find CZ's much easier. I was hugely sceptical of this advice, but I kept it in mind and aimed to kill Cyclops' in a CZ instead of just the Scouts.

I took that Chieftain into AXCZ around ports in the warzones - the ports fire guns and can be used as cover, you can also dock at the port and get fixed up and re-armed without exiting the CZ area :) Many of the Scouts also prioritise shooting the port instead of the AX pilots.

I went in with the intention of just surviving while killing only the scouts. Using Gauss against scouts is hard, but if you learn how they move you can hold your shot until the right time (they slow a lot to change direction and often turn to present a larger target). Nail them with a full blast, it only take 1 full hit from all 4 Gauss on the AXI Chieftain and a partial second hit to kill a regular Scout, so really you only need to land 2 hits per Scout - less if the AX NPC's are helping, so I try to see who they're shooting and help them out rather than picking my own targets - at least at first.

That gave me a lot of experience in targeting with Gauss and staying alive in the CZ (using heat sinks, managing caustic damage, developing battlefield awareness of where the threats were coming from, etc, etc.) I also ended up duelling with the Thargon swarms a lot, learning to kill those using the flak launcher is a bit tricky at first but once you get the hang of it it's actually pretty easy - and getting rid of those dramatically increases your survivability.

After I felt comfortable doing all that (a couple of days pretty intense practice), I started attacking the Interceptors that come in and mostly ignoring the Scouts, just killing the ones that attacked me. I learned pretty quickly to spot a Cyclops from any other variant and just run from the others. Using my best impersonation of the AXI pilot masters - by that I mean literally trying everything they say from their training videos, using cold coasting, pumping heat sinks to stay cold, staying out of the engagement zone during certain phases, learning to trigger the field neutraliser at the right time, etc. I have now killed 4 Cyclops' in CZ's in the last 2 days - and did that while also killing Scouts and generally staying alive (mostly).

I definitely did it really poorly. The first time I killed the Cyclops but died right after, the second one took ages, the third and fourth one I did in one CZ (repairing between at the station). I'm feeling much more confident about fighting Scouts and Interceptors and CZ's in general - and the AXI people were right, learning to kill a Cyclops does help killing Scouts with the same ship - because it's basically the same skills, aiming, resource management, combat awareness, etc.

Having the right ship-build dramatically changed the experience for me. Going from my homebrew version of an AX ship to the AXI meta Chieftain was night-and-day. It's not just the guns, it's how the ship handles and gets on-target, how it manages heat buildup and the tools to cope in battles.

So that's my long-winded answer. The Multicannons are a stepping stone to using the Gauss. Focus on developing the skills to kill Interceptors. From there it's just practicing and refining technique and aiming. Obvs this will likely change and evolve though the war now anyway, so who knows what'll be round the corner :)

Hope this helps :)

Good Hunting!
o7
 
Thanks for the encouragement! I'll keep trying then. ^^

I guess what I really need to do is find some under-siege stations to practice =)
 
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I didn't get much into Thargoid fighting previously. I only did it when Thargoids attacked the bubble, so I was really only interested in CZ's, not hunting Interceptors alone.

Originally I used a hybrid Chieftain that was mostly like a knockoff AXI meta-ish build that used 2 class 3 AX Multis and 2 class 1 Gauss. That way I was able to get a decent feel for the ship whilst killing Scouts, and I tried to shoot the scouts with the Gauss as best I could, giving me practice targeting them (but also still being able to kill them with the Multi
I can back the use of gauss vs. scouts. It will up your aim skills.
 
Main problem: the "meta" AX ships are all 100% optimized to fight Interceptors. But in current instances, there are waves of Scouts that have to be cleared away. And that is pretty frustrating when your ship is packing only Gauss cannons. Especially when you can't afford ammo synths.

That’s why I love Salvation Plasma.
1 shot scouts, plenty of ammo, no need for millions of heat sinks.

They fly so fast they are almost hitscan.

Set your weapon reticles to „trailing“, this will enable you to easily target hearts without xenoscanner.

They are perfect for CZs.

You can even wreck Hydras with them! I use 2 small and 2 medium Salvation Plasma on my Corvette.
 
Scouts have always been the first stage of AX CZs so I don't see the meta changing. But a new development is having AX CZs centered around damaged stations that are still open for docking and can provide repair/rearming, so you don't have to worry about synthing ammo.
 
Right, I practised a bit at that ground base near Wakata. I did manage to get a bit better with the Gaussies vs Scouts, I guess. ^^
I am in fact thinking about getting me a couple of Salvation weps, currently I have 5 Bloops in stock and should be alright with any mats for these. I'm just not sure whether to invest them in Plasmas or Shards -- I've read endorsements for each by individual players so it's hard to decide. ^^
I see Plasmas have a bit better Piercing than Shards, so that's like ~20% more effective damage than the raw numbers suggest (between the two). Still, none come close to the Gauss with its divine 140 piercing.

I'm trying to remember what Trailing reticule does but my memory eludes me. ^^
 
Ah right, thanks for the heads-up!

So, I've run some numbers and got the following (not taking heat buildup / power draw into account at this point, much less the difficulty of actually landing shots on target):

WeaponClassPiercingRaw SDPSEff vs CyclopsEff vs BasiliskEff vs MedusaEff vs Hydra
Gauss114019.719.719.716.212
Salvation Plasma18926.121.41613.259.3
Salvation Shard16129.517.812.8510.47.7
Gauss214034.534.534.528.421
Salvation Plasma211041,641,632.72719
Salvation Shard291555035.829.121.5


EDIT: table updated with corrected values for fully-charged Plasma charges.
Thanks to @DemiserofD for pointing out that the EDSY values do not take the full charge into account.

Previous comments (now partially outdated):
[
So here we see that the viability of weapon choices varies immensely by the intended target and weapon size. Here it's especially the non-Gauss class 1s that struggle, due to their low Piercing values. If you run a ship without smol hardpoints, the Mod Shard is right on par with the Gauss. The Plasmas suffer from their low base damage.
So at this point, the pilot's individual accuracy comes into play. Your hit rate with Plasmas needs to be twice as high as with Gausses to end up with the same effective DPS.
Then again, ammo supply is a bit tight for Gauss so the others give you a better damage pool.

Going from these figures -- and I repeat, this is all theorycrafting bc I haven't tried the Salvation weps yet -- the Shards may be the overall best choice if your ship doesn't run Smols: should be easier to use than the Gauss, with the class 2 offering great effective DPS, with a bigger damage pool.
]



So, it's mainly ships with smol hardpoints - like the Chieftain - that kinda get shoehorned into using Gauss, because they have the most to lose by switching to another wep. Ships that don't need to use a class 1 AX wep should perform just fine with Shards.
As for Plasmas, idk; purely stat-wise they still fall behind due to their low base dmg.
 
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Going by this data, I have decided to give the Shards a go. Fitted 2 med and 2 smol on my Chieftain.
Very effective vs Scouts; reasonably effective vs the lower-tier Interceptors. They are easier to use of course, but the problem is to hit exerted hearts. It's kinda spray and pray.
I'll stick with them for the time being; have set the gunsight to Trailing now which kinda complicates things with scouts, but if it helps ripping interceptors that shall be alright with me.

So - when you have the shards mounted, you're not missing the AXMC, so that's nice.
I might try fitting my Challenger with the converse -- 1 MC and 3 Gauss. But rn that ship is pretty much cannibalized anyway, needed the parts for the Chief. xD

Ceterum censo the 4 weapon limit needs to go.
 
I'd pack as much Gauss as the ship can effectively handle with the PD and add the biggest AX turrets to it. And just use Gauss on scouts, they are good target practice.
 
Ah right, thanks for the heads-up!

So, I've run some numbers and got the following (not taking heat buildup / power draw into account at this point, much less the difficulty of actually landing shots on target):

WeaponClassPiercingRaw SDPSEff vs CyclopsEff vs BasiliskEff vs MedusaEff vs Hydra
Gauss114019.719.719.716.212
Salvation Plasma18914.612.99.27.65.7
Salvation Shard16129.517.812.8510.47.7
Gauss214034.534.534.528.421
Salvation Plasma211024.424.419.215.811.7
Salvation Shard291555035.829.121.5

So here we see that the viability of weapon choices varies immensely by the intended target and weapon size. Here it's especially the non-Gauss class 1s that struggle, due to their low Piercing values. If you run a ship without smol hardpoints, the Mod Shard is right on par with the Gauss. The Plasmas suffer from their low base damage.
So at this point, the pilot's individual accuracy comes into play. Your hit rate with Plasmas needs to be twice as high as with Gausses to end up with the same effective DPS.
Then again, ammo supply is a bit tight for Gauss so the others give you a better damage pool.

Going from these figures -- and I repeat, this is all theorycrafting bc I haven't tried the Salvation weps yet -- the Shards may be the overall best choice if your ship doesn't run Smols: should be easier to use than the Gauss, with the class 2 offering great effective DPS, with a bigger damage pool.

So, it's mainly ships with smol hardpoints - like the Chieftain - that kinda get shoehorned into using Gauss, because they have the most to lose by switching to another wep. Ships that don't need to use a class 1 AX wep should perform just fine with Shards.
As for Plasmas, idk; purely stat-wise they still fall behind due to their low base dmg.

the values for salvation shards are wrong (both as value and as concept, i mean at 1.5km you will miss the heart with a lot of pellets, maybe more than half)
gausses are still the best weapons against hidras and dusas

my own aproach for ax cz is a pair of salvation plasma (for scouts and interceptors/hearts) and a pair of gauss for interceptors or a pair of salvation shards as generic faffing around (scouts/interceptors)
and i usually use a Cutter with size8 bi-weaves

for solo interceptor kills i still use 4x gauss and 1 flak on a cold krait mk2
 
As I wrote above, I'm not taking the difficulty of landing shots on target into account.
Even landing 20% of pellets on the heart is better than hitting 0% with the Gauss. And you get about twice as many attempts, and can spam a couple of rounds more quickly.

Ofc if you got the aim game nailed down so you reliably hit with the Gauss, more power to you, but not everyone can do that.
 
Ah right, thanks for the heads-up!

So, I've run some numbers and got the following (not taking heat buildup / power draw into account at this point, much less the difficulty of actually landing shots on target):

WeaponClassPiercingRaw SDPSEff vs CyclopsEff vs BasiliskEff vs MedusaEff vs Hydra
Gauss114019.719.719.716.212
Salvation Plasma18914.612.99.27.65.7
Salvation Shard16129.517.812.8510.47.7
Gauss214034.534.534.528.421
Salvation Plasma211024.424.419.215.811.7
Salvation Shard291555035.829.121.5

So here we see that the viability of weapon choices varies immensely by the intended target and weapon size. Here it's especially the non-Gauss class 1s that struggle, due to their low Piercing values. If you run a ship without smol hardpoints, the Mod Shard is right on par with the Gauss. The Plasmas suffer from their low base damage.
So at this point, the pilot's individual accuracy comes into play. Your hit rate with Plasmas needs to be twice as high as with Gausses to end up with the same effective DPS.
Then again, ammo supply is a bit tight for Gauss so the others give you a better damage pool.

Going from these figures -- and I repeat, this is all theorycrafting bc I haven't tried the Salvation weps yet -- the Shards may be the overall best choice if your ship doesn't run Smols: should be easier to use than the Gauss, with the class 2 offering great effective DPS, with a bigger damage pool.

So, it's mainly ships with smol hardpoints - like the Chieftain - that kinda get shoehorned into using Gauss, because they have the most to lose by switching to another wep. Ships that don't need to use a class 1 AX wep should perform just fine with Shards.
As for Plasmas, idk; purely stat-wise they still fall behind due to their low base dmg.

I'm not entirely sure where you're getting those numbers, they seem to be oddly inaccurate.

Gauss does 17.5 DPS to a basilisk, not 34.5. (35 damage, 0.5 shots per second(ish))
ModShards do 17.6 DPS to a basilisk, not 35.8. (40.62 damage per shot, 0.6757 shots per second average, and 91/140 AP multiplier)
ModPlasmas do 30.8 DPS to a basilisk, not 19.2. (4.15 AX damage, times 17 for full charge, times 110/140 AP multiplier, with 0.555 shots per second)
 
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I ignored the AX damage factor bc it's exactly the same for all the weapons.
The numbers I took straight from EDSY, and that says 24.4 SDPS for mod plasmas, if that is inaccurate it should be corrected there.
 
I ignored the AX damage factor bc it's exactly the same for all the weapons.
The numbers I took straight from EDSY, and that says 24.4 SDPS for mod plasmas, if that is inaccurate it should be corrected there.
The sdps is variable, which is why it doesn't show the highest possible figure. What it shows is the damage you get if you spam fire it as fast as you possibly can. Of course, nobody would actually do that, but that's not EDSYs fault.

The actual sdps you can get by multiplying the base damage by the damage multiplier of 17 and then dividing by the fire rate.
 
Interesting. Damn! Wish I'd known that before spending all my Bloops on shards 😅
Well, I guess it's another trip to the Guardians then...

Thanks for the heads-up, mate!
 
I have now run the numbers on the ModPlasmas and correspondingly updated my table.
As before I did not bother to include the AX damage type factor -- all the weapons have exactly the same, so it doesn't matter at all in this context.
If we were to use these weapons against human ships and compare to standard weapons, ofc, you need to adjust for damage type and resistance.

So now the tables have turned quite a bit -- the Plasmas are suddenly a LOT more effective, also they are a lot easier to use than Gausses.
Have only run a very short test tonight, which was very promising though. Can't wait to try them out on some Goids! 😈🚫👾
 
Next update on my quest for knowledge -- I have only yesterday found the info how the different weapons are differently effective vs ceptors' hulls and hearts.
This may be common knowledge to everyone else but I was truly surprised to read about it; I thought the only difference was how difficult it was to hit a heart with the respective weapon. So, this is not the case.

  • Gauss cannons have 50% effectiveness vs hearts,
  • ModPlasmas are severely lacking in this department, at only 25% effectiveness
  • and ModShards lurch a great leap forward with a whopping 75%.

So, I now understand that's why AX experts say that the Gauss is still the best weapon -- it does not shine in any particular department, but it does not fail anywhere either, delivering consistent damage to any type of interceptor, hull and heart alike. Point taken.

My problem remains that Gauss remains frickin difficult to use with a dual joystick setup, and I utterly refuse to play a spaceship sim with keyboard and mouse. So, I am now experimenting with a mix of Plasmas and Shards. Here it's a bit unfortunate that the Beef Chief has half its hardpoints in size S. Regardless, I have outfitted it with 2x C1 ModPlasmas and 2x C2 ModShards. (filling up with a flak and a cooling beam).

The next complication is that EDSY simply doesn't get the Plasma Chargers right, assuming that you'd fire them as fast as possible, when in fact the sensible thing to do is to charge them fully before releasing the shot. So here I had no choice but to do some live testing:

2 pips in WEP:
the 2 smol plasmas drain the capacitor in max. 5 fully charged shots from full to empty.
the 2 med shards overheat the ship in less than 1 clip - roughly 3-4 shots to "temperature critical" and by the 5th you'll be "taking heat damage".

3 pips in WEP - solve both problems elegantly. You can keep firing the plasmas without draining the capacitor, and release a full clip of shards without overheating.

--> theoretically, this should give us an effective SDPS of 30 vs hull and 27 vs hearts, without having to worry too much about distro drain or heat.

Compare to a full Gauss setup (2 med, 2 sml), for a theoretical 55 DPS vs hull and 27.5 vs hearts, fired in 2+2 staggered firegroups:
2 pips: overheat in 5 shots (3+2)
3 pips: overheat in 7 shots (4+3)
BTW actually, if you stagger the fire by pressing the next button exactly when the current shot goes off, DPS will be about 10% lower, so 50/25.
Non-staggered fire will overheat you on the 2nd salvo.

All under nominal conditions mind you: cruising in the blue zone, not boosting, not using heatsinks, not using TV beam.
So far no live combat trials because I haven't been able to find an active AX combat zone tonight. :p Following up as soon as possible.
 
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