Balance is a funny thing...

[scorpyon]

There's a lot (and always will be a lot) of talk on the forums about balance when it comes to ships and different mechanics etc.
But game balance is a funny thing, and even more so when taking Elite into context.

Let's take an example:
The Viper and The Cobra.

Now, the Cobra costs more than the Viper.
So some would say that with equal pilots and ship loadouts, the Cobra should win as it's slightly larger and more expensive.

But the Viper is a dedicated Combat vessel, whereas the Cobra isn't.
So some would say the Viper should win.

But what about the Cobra and the Asp?

They are both multi-purpose vessels, so some would say they should effectively cancel each other out (a draw).

But the Asp is bigger and more expensive.
So it should always win.

But the Cobra is more nimble and can avoid the Asp's fire.
So it should always win.

But the Asp has more firepower...

And so it goes on.

In short, when you hear somebody try and use the slightly tired "If two pilots of equal skill were flying these two equally fitted ships, then XXX should ALWAYS win...". It's not ever that black and white.

...


... unless I say it... In that case, this is fine... ahem!

 

[retslag1]

I think the above explains my thoughts.

 

[scorpyon]

View attachment 32523
I think the above explains my thoughts.

That's balance!
I guess you DID understand!

 

[Remiel]

Never bring a chicken to a custody hearing.

 

[Bacon Sarnie]

Never bring a chicken to a custody hearing.

I object, I say I object sir!

 

[Sentience]

...but if you're in an Eagle, you always lose. No matter what.

 

[CMDR Hagglebeard]

...but if you're in an Eagle, you always lose. No matter what.

Hey, the eagle can fight other eagles, adders, and sidewinders. It says specifically that it's outdated.

 

[TriumphANT]

Wise words mate. Could you please explain the price difference between a 3C/F Beam Laser and a 3D/T Beam Laser to complete the story?

 

[Sentience]

Hey, the eagle can fight other eagles, adders, and sidewinders. It says specifically that it's outdated.

Lore should not dictate game balance.

 

[Remiel]

...but if you're in an Eagle, you always lose. No matter what.

Speak for yourself. That thing can do pirouettes on an ice cube if you know what you're doing with it.

 

[ColdFish]

Lore should not dictate game balance.

In the case of the Eagle, maybe it's gameplay dictating lore?
What was first? The lore or the performance of the Eagle? [mind blown]
It's all that chicken and egg nonsense again.
How can we ever know?

 

[Ziljan]

You can make a case that the Asp and the Cobra are somewhat balanced even though they technically have the same cat 6 maneuverability. But certain ships like the Vulture, FdL, Python completely outclass anything else in their own role category. If aiming assist gimbals/turrets didn't exist then small ship size might have balanced things out a bit. But in this game, smaller combat ships are just "starter ships" with a clear progression bias towards larger ships with more hard points, larger guns, and vastly superior shields, hull durability, and jump range The bigger ships even have ridiculously high agility given their tonnage. So if you can afford one, a bigger ship has no downsides except inertia, docking difficulty and top speed.

Exploration and trade also benefit from larger ships, soon mining will too. It is clear that the developers want us to want larger ships. Its not a question of "balance" but one of assumed size-based progression. But what if progression wasn't strictly married to increasing size? What if we could upgrade everything but cargo capacity to whatever class we could afford? We'd have some astronomically expensive smaller ships, but we'd still have progression. And, people could truly fly what they liked without feeling pushed into ever larger ships.

 

[Sugarat]

A Sidewinder with C3 cannons would be like 1 step forward, 2 steps back every time it fired

 

[Remiel]

A Sidewinder with C3 cannons would be like 1 step forward, 2 steps back every time it fired

Let's be realistic here.

A Sidewinder with C3 cannons is more likely to fall apart into tiny pieces of shrapnel the moment you pull the trigger.

#totallyworthit

 

[Derath]

Balance is a great term, just has to be used properly which requires expertise on the subject. Using the players of even skill comment is a disclaimer that has to be added to remove the fact that a sidewinder competently piloted could kill some of the pythons I faced. This isn't a comment on balance or the python or sidewinder, the only thing that matter is how bad one particular pilot was lol.

 

[acg515]

There's a lot (and always will be a lot) of talk on the forums about balance when it comes to ships and different mechanics etc.
But game balance is a funny thing, and even more so when taking Elite into context.

Let's take an example:
The Viper and The Cobra.

Now, the Cobra costs more than the Viper.
So some would say that with equal pilots and ship loadouts, the Cobra should win as it's slightly larger and more expensive.

But the Viper is a dedicated Combat vessel, whereas the Cobra isn't.
So some would say the Viper should win.

But what about the Cobra and the Asp?

They are both multi-purpose vessels, so some would say they should effectively cancel each other out (a draw).

But the Asp is bigger and more expensive.
So it should always win.

But the Cobra is more nimble and can avoid the Asp's fire.
So it should always win.

But the Asp has more firepower...

And so it goes on.

In short, when you hear somebody try and use the slightly tired "If two pilots of equal skill were flying these two equally fitted ships, then XXX should ALWAYS win...". It's not ever that black and white.

...


... unless I say it... In that case, this is fine... ahem!

My Cobra was kitted out with no real weapons and I got an Asp down to 2% before I died, and it was kitted out for combat. The Asp is a superior ship but a superior pilot can do a lot of damage.

 

[Arry]

I do hope that FD are not going to be re-balancing ships.

They spend months, nay, years, designing, these collection of pixels. They then spend months testing them. Then they put them into the game. Now if people want to whine that ship is not good enough, or that ship is too good. Then get the better ship and leave the lesser one in the shipyard.

Play with what you have got, make the most of it and other ships; will come along.

The main reasons I have quit Eve, is the constant re-balancing of ships there. Adding weapon slots and taking others away, changing ranges, weapon damage, changing drone space, etc etc. Would be kind of ok, if the re-balancing was for any new ships brought, but no, they come into my hangers and change the ships I already have. Out of order and should not be done here.

FD think of a ship, design it, test it and if they feel it is ready for the game after all that, then leave it as it is.

Arry.

 

[Sentience]

Speak for yourself. That thing can do pirouettes on an ice cube if you know what you're doing with it.

As soon as you try to run away from anything, you're mush. Either you finish the dogfight on top or you go home in a box.

In the case of the Eagle, maybe it's gameplay dictating lore?
What was first? The lore or the performance of the Eagle? [mind blown]
It's all that chicken and egg nonsense again.
How can we ever know?

Fortunately both the lore and the gameplay can change.

 

[Remiel]

As soon as you try to run away from anything, you're mush. Either you finish the dogfight on top or you go home in a box.

Run away? Who flies an Eagle intending to run away?

 

[GluttonyFang]

There's a lot (and always will be a lot) of talk on the forums about balance when it comes to ships and different mechanics etc.
But game balance is a funny thing, and even more so when taking Elite into context.

Let's take an example:
The Viper and The Cobra.

Now, the Cobra costs more than the Viper.
So some would say that with equal pilots and ship loadouts, the Cobra should win as it's slightly larger and more expensive.

But the Viper is a dedicated Combat vessel, whereas the Cobra isn't.
So some would say the Viper should win.

But what about the Cobra and the Asp?

They are both multi-purpose vessels, so some would say they should effectively cancel each other out (a draw).

But the Asp is bigger and more expensive.
So it should always win.

But the Cobra is more nimble and can avoid the Asp's fire.
So it should always win.

But the Asp has more firepower...

And so it goes on.

In short, when you hear somebody try and use the slightly tired "If two pilots of equal skill were flying these two equally fitted ships, then XXX should ALWAYS win...". It's not ever that black and white.

...


... unless I say it... In that case, this is fine... ahem!

There will never be balancing, examine this in a decision structure.

final boolean iAmABetterPilot = true;
final boolean iShouldNeverLose = true;
final boolean theOpponentGotLucky= true;
public boolean gameIsBalanced = false;
public int ego=0;
public int braggingRights=0;
private double probabilityOfComplainingAboutBalance = 0.0;
private int frustration = 0;

if(iWon)
{
ego++;
braggingRights++;
gameIsBalanced = true;
frustration--;
}
else if(stalemate || draw)
{
probabilityOfComplainingAboutBalance=0.5;
frustration++;
}
else
{
probailityOfComplainingAboutBalanced=9000.1;
frustration=9001;
}

Let's be honest, the majority of the players' brains follow this pattern.