Balancing Ships

[Kylby36]

So I know that there have been a lot of threads about this, but I have a different approach that hasn't been suggested before.

As you all know, eagles are a loved ship by some of the community, but the ship itself doesn't get much love from development. As ships get more expensive, as does their strength. Which leaves the eagle pretty much useless... (Vipers and cobras suffer as well IF NOT UPGRADED) I'm not going to suggest giving more firepower to any of these low tier ships... I'm going to suggest making a change with gimballed weapons to balance it out. Let's snap to reality though first before I make this suggestion. As it stands now, a vulture + can sit there for minutes as an eagle constantly smashes it with lasers, and the shields hardly go down. There is a video on youtube called Hero Eagle which I will link if someone needs to see it, to prove this point. So in no way should this make you feel like eagles will be overpowered. If it does, all offense intended, you just suck at piloting. By the time that eagle spends 5 minutes getting your shields down, you should be able to finally get him in your sights long enough to shoot him. No excuses.



Now onto the suggestion. I was thinking about making it to where the larger class weapon it is, the slower it is to track onto a target. Before anyone points this out, I understand that if this were to be developed, the vulture would be almost unstoppable due to its maneueverability. So to counter it, the bigger the ship, the faster it takes for a larger class weapon to track you with gimballed regardless of what I suggested. So if you're in a smaller, more maneuverable ship you will have a small fighting chance against larger ships. Again, this will not make any ship overpowered, as the eagle takes 5+ minutes to take down a target with an upgraded shield. And again, I have proof that this is the case.

So TLDR


Larger class weapons have a slower tracking time for gimballed weapons because they should be heavier, making it easier for ships to get out of dodge of them unless the pilot keeps them in their sights. The ship you are shooting at will determine how fast your tracking time will be. For example, a class 3 weapon will have a harder time tracking onto an eagle, than a FDL due to size.

What do you guys think? It would give the lower tier ships some use for once.



EDIT: Some of you are missing my point. Again, I'm not saying that an eagle should be able to take down a python or anaconda with ease. It shouldn't be able to at all if the pilot has had even only an hour of flight time under his belt. I'm saying that a ship as small as an eagle should be able to continue a fight with smaller ships while the big ship has to spend a little more time targeting with tracking, giving the ship time to destroy the smaller ships before shoving off, while trying to dodge the tracking of the big ship. How is this game breaking to the people in the larger ships?

 

[Caramel Clown]

Larger class gimballs do track targets slower...

 

[Beast Mode]

The Eagle is your typical cardboard shoes beginner combat ship. It should not be any more competitive than it already is against ships that cost 100 times as much or more. But if you wanted to make a case for more expensive variants of the Eagle that retain the feel of the ship while at the same time adding significantly better shields and a little more firepower, I'd be all for that.

 

[Alex Brentnall]

Yeah this is where a lot of people seem do disagree. I myself am in two minds.

1) Part of me says a Vulture costs over 46x the Eagle so why should they balance.
2) Part of me says even a weak ship should be a contest.

In this instance I think 1 wins out. Try a wing of 3 Eagles vs a Vulture, it will be very different.
I do feel the smallest ships need a speed & manoeuvrability boost for balance but that's all.

 

[Brimstone]

Balancing a ship? Easy! If it's heavier on one side than the other, just shift the cargo to the other side!

I'll leave now.

 

[glynie]

 

[BlueLumen]

I think the Eagle should be left as is. As someone else has stated, it's a starter ship, it's not an "End Game" top tier ship. That being said, I would LOVE to see a much larger (Clipper sized?) Imperial Eagle variant that is much more combat oriented (like FDL), or even multipurpose (like Python), we need more ships in those categories and something to sit in that huge gap between the Python/FDL and Anaconda. I only throw the Imperial Eagle in there as I LOVE the design, speed and maneuverability of it, but let's be honest, doing things like Bounty Hunting, Mission Running or Conflict zones, there are much better ships suited for those roles, and aside from a little fun now and again, ships like the Eagle/Viper are rather useless, with a few exceptions of course (like either on ground attack missions).

 

[Iori]

When you pay significantly more for a ship, you expect it to be better than the cheaper ones, not the other way around, and that is why the Cutter suck so much, not only is the worst of the three big ships while being the most expensive, but its also worse than smaller ships.

I get it that the slow turning makes it feel like a big ship, but if they wanted this "big ship" feel, the Conda and the Corvette should be equally slow or even slower (considering their price) And of course, to compensate for this disadvantage, big ships should have a hidden stat that makes their turrets GOOD, like having longer range and improved firepower.

If they wanted to keep the status quo, then they should at least greatly boost the Cutters turning rate and give it a power capacitor on par with the Anaconda, you know, so it can be another huge dogfighter and not a completely worthless warship.


There is a reason why everyone goes Federal Corvette for their high end combat ship, and not because they are feds, most imperials I know go for the vette too, the disparity between performance and price is completely absurd.

 

[BlueLumen]

When you pay significantly more for a ship, you expect it to be better than the cheaper ones, not the other way around, and that is why the Cutter suck so much, not only is the worst of the three big ships while being the most expensive, but its also worse than smaller ships.

That is not part of this discussion, please don't bring that argument here.

 

[Iori]

That is not part of this discussion, please don't bring that argument here.

The thread is called "Balancing ships", so its perfectly within the context. The OP says all ships should perform equally regardless of the price, I disagree, and bring up a point in which this game fails the most.
Also, who do you think you are, dictating to others what is part of the discussion and what is not?

 

[BlueLumen]

The thread is called "Balancing ships", so its perfectly within the context. The OP says all ships should perform equally regardless of the price, I disagree, and bring up a point in which this game fails the most.
Also, who do you think you are, dictating to others what is part of the discussion and what is not?

I'm the mediator that will help to prevent cry babies whining about their faction ship being too weak and demanding the other ships be nerfed to oblivion because you're tired of crying and not being heard.

 

[Iori]

I'm the mediator that will help to prevent cry babies whining about their faction ship being too weak and demanding the other ships be nerfed to oblivion because you're tired of crying and not being heard.

No, you are not the mediator, you are nobody.

Nerfed to Cutter level = Nerfed to oblivion, thanks for proving my point.

In any case, if you even cared to read my post you'd realize thats not exactly what I was suggesting, in fact I want to make them all feel like big ships, with buffed damage and range. But its of justice that the most expensive ship is not the worst ship, which it is at this point, and just because you are a federation fanboy and want to keep the competition useless, doesn't mean I'm being off topic and you don't have the right to tell me.

And If you wanted to silence me, congratulations for achieving the complete opposite.

 

[BlueLumen]

No, you are not the mediator, you are nobody.

Nerfed to Cutter level = Nerfed to oblivion, thanks for proving my point.

In any case, if you even cared to read my post you'd realize thats not exactly what I was suggesting, in fact I want to make them all feel like big ships, with buffed damage and range. But its of justice that the most expensive ship is not the worst ship, which it is at this point, and just because you are a federation fanboy and want to keep the competition useless, doesn't mean I'm being off topic and you don't have the right to tell me.

And If you wanted to silence me, congratulations for achieving the complete opposite.

You're right, my sincerest apologies. Though my post was well before you edited your post, congrats on showing your true side. I will not get into an argument with you and stoop to your level. Good luck have fun, be respectful. Oh, and my Cutter does just fine, maybe you just need some practice, it's quite the impressive ship, much better than the Corvette in my opinion, and I have both.

 

[Caramel Clown]

Balancing a ship? Easy! If it's heavier on one side than the other, just shift the cargo to the other side!

I'll leave now.

Funny you say that. I've read somewhere that Anaconda has special cargo racks in a frame that can more around in ship's hull, shifting it's center of mass to help maneuver

 

[metatheurgist]

I don't think the answer is to try and make all ships viable in combat. That's unrealistic anyway, as others have already said, the Eagle is a starter ship and it shouldn't directly compete with it's more expensive brethren. They should come up with new ways to use the Eagle, new ways to succeed in the game that aren't just about straight up firepower. Maybe Eagles handle better in atmo? Maybe they're better for sneaking past scanners in recon missions, maybe some missions are better done by swarms of Eagles rather than Corvettes? This would also go some way to answering the "depth" question.

 

[Iori]

You're right, my sincerest apologies. Though my post was well before you edited your post, congrats on showing your true side. I will not get into an argument with you and stoop to your level. Good luck have fun, be respectful. Oh, and my Cutter does just fine, maybe you just need some practice, it's quite the impressive ship, much better than the Corvette in my opinion, and I have both.

What you quoted is still within the topic "When you pay significantly more for a ship, you expect it to be better than the cheaper ones"
My true side is displayed in the top right corner, of every single of my posts, I have nothing to hide.

Unless you are talking about trading, there is no way the Cutter can be better than the Corvette, smaller PD, worse placed hardpoints, and twice as slow to keep track of the targets. It is just technically inferior in every meaningful way, except survivability, but the ability to run away like a coward it not exactly a big selling point to pay twice the price.

Oh, and wait for the new C4 weapons, that will be fun.

 

[LameoveR]

Anaconda with A thrusters turns faster than Python with A thrusters.
Fix Python.

 

[Siobhan]

Did someone need help balancing ships?

Image stolen from Inara - "HORAFUGIT" by Max Darko

 

[Deleted member 38366]

IMHO some Players have what I would call a "misperception" about many small/Beginner Ships, believing they should still be able to compete seriously with far more capable/expensive Ships.
You know - still sit in an Eagle and "play with the big boys in the shark tank".

For all I know, that approach doesn't work.
And heck, one day we might be able to sit in an F63 or Imperial Fighter - will people still demand they should be able to take on Vulture, FAS or anything of that size?
I do fear so.

The way it IMHO actually works with small Ships :
- at the beginning, these Ships are run in their primary role, affording the CMDR to build a learning curve on them
-> the Ship isn't the limit at this point, the inexperienced CMDR is... still learning the basics and getting a hang of everything

- later and after the CMDR has built experience and capability, they can then take these small Ships to the limits of their performance envelope
-> as the Ship's capabilities are now the limiting factor, bigger/better Ships are usually purchased

That leaves the small Ships behind after a while, like a toy that lost its appeal. A completely normal progression of things.

The kicker is, that the old, small Ships are still useful - it just depends on the CMDR to recognize it.
An Eagle makes for a nice Courier or for Planetary Landings.
And technically, it can act as a stealth Railgun platform for those that want to venture into this area. It just requires a completely different combat style to still assure some survivability and still pack some punch at the same time.

Either way, wanting a small Combat ship like the Eagle to still compete with the big boys always feels like asking The Hauler is useless as a Trader - it needs to still somehow compete with Anaconda, Type-9 and Cutter!
Point is - it won't easily or at all. And it isn't meant to, never was.

The Key simply is to find another use for the Ships that lost their appeal for their original role.
Still owning Ships like Sidewinder and Eagle, I found a use for them.
But if none are found by a CMDR - then it's simply time to move on.

PS.
Ships don't need a purpose to be flown. Flying one just for the sake of piloting it at least for me is often sufficient reason to keep them around... Even if it's just for the Cockpit view or the feeling/sound of the Ship

 

[MUSKETEER]

The Eagle is balanced. You get what you pay for.

/thread