Elite / Frontier Ban Military Drives!

Bounder

Bounder
ookay, not really Elite-related but it's looking kind of barren round here so let's see if we can get a flame war going. Anyone seen Louis lately?

Steorn are about to be scientifically validated. By April the official results will be announced, proof-of-concept products will be available to buy, the actual development of the technology itself will be open sourced (with a focus on humanitarian relief), and Steorn will concentrate on licencing to manufacturers and other intersted parties. 2007 is set to be a momentous year....

With regards to space exploration, all kinds of things are now feasible. Reactionless EM drives could theoretically propel a steorn-powered fuelless craft to lightspeed and beyond, as the thrust vectors accelerate along with the rest of the engine. Currently over 90% of a vehicle's launch weight is fuel, and tricky heat shielding is required for fuelless reentry. With a Steorn-powered ship, these limitations no longer apply - you can take off and reenter as gently as you like, with no need for fuel. Even basic aerodynamics are unnecessary - you could theoretically turn a submarine into an intergalactic cruiser...

I know this is like the third time i've brought this up, but... WOW! :eek: To all those anticipating a posthumous E4 launch... this is a great time to be alive.

Somthing's going to happen... :cool:
 

Prycon

P
Anyone seen Louis lately?
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He who is such a tool? :eek:

I don't know... I know a Louis from alt.fan.elite around `98 `99. Haven't seen him since. :cool: I wonder if Mr. Braben remember the flame war he suffered on alt.fan.elite, was it back in `99? :p
 

Steve O B Have

Steve O B Have
Bounder said:
Steorn are about to be scientifically validated. By April the official results will be announced, proof-of-concept products will be available to buy, the actual development of the technology itself will be open sourced (with a focus on humanitarian relief), and Steorn will concentrate on licencing to manufacturers and other intersted parties. 2007 is set to be a momentous year....
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I''m very curious to see if they actually manage to prove anything and more importantly manage to patant their technology - as far as I know they have not been able to produce a working piece of engineering to validate anything let alone produce something that they can sell... but hey I'll sit back and watch and see the world change and if it is for the better then I'll be happy for it.
 

Bounder

Bounder
@Prycon - yeah that was the guy... i'm just sayin, it'd spice things up a bit if we had a resident troll or two... nyah most of you old codgers probably ain't got any fight left in 'yuz anyway :p

if i had any wits left i'd sign up with a new account and have a go meself... had an idea a while back for an anti-welsh UFO conspiracy theory, but need to work on the details...

Fantastic news tho - i've just bought the craaaziest system: AMD FX60 dual-core 2.8gHz, maxxed out memory (4 gigs, no idea what speed but asked for the fastest available), dunno which m/b but asked for nVidia chipset... and twin Quadro FX 3400 cards in SLi mode, with twin Triplehead2go units driving 5 x 17" panels around a central 19" panel. Should have it all up and running within a week.

Nice. :D

Next i'll be adding a big RAID array, one o' them headtracker thingies, a top soundcard and some high-end game controllers (force feedback steering wheel, pedals and sticks). Mehbe a fresnel for each monitor too. Then a refridgerated cabinet, liquid cooling system... see how far i can o/c the thing.

Also looking at CPNmouse so's i can have a mouse in each hand and two pointers on-screen(s). Should make it a bit easier to navigate round 6 monitors (max screen area 3840 x 2048).

And why such a gratuitous waste of money...? Operation Flashpoint! I'll be able to set up missions with thousands of NPCs and summon forth unparalleld levels of mayhem with miles of yummy view distance with maxxed out graphics and post-processing filters, FSAA, etc.... it's gonna be mental.

I can't wait till next week. I'll be trolling you lot with screenies and benchmark scores. You guys are gonna be so jealous.... :p
 

Bounder

Bounder
@SteveH - yep, it totally can't be real, no way. Nuh-huh. But i think that somehow, it is. Demos have been given - including a democratically-selected forum member (NDAs in place of course), and video of a device was shown at a presentation in London a few weeks back - the "toy" had been built by the head of technology development for a major European manufacturer, just to prove the concept to himself - the video shows his astonishment that the thing actually works - he then shows it lifting a weight 200% the size of an input weight. The power supplies now in development are purely mechanical with no electronics required, and completely self-sustaining. Apparently...

They've explained that the process has two main parts, neither of which involve new science and neither of which are OU, but when applied together... one aspect has already been explained on the forum, though they haven't yet given away the "keys to the safe". The information so far suggests "free" energy can be gained in a magnetic transaction by mechanically outpacing the viscocity response of a ferromagnetic material in exchanges with permanent magnets, without depleting flux density or remanance etc. In fact, saturation density actually increases - if semi charged PMs are used, after the generator has run a while they become fully saturated. This is another thing that sets them apart from the Tom Bearden clan. They're leaving the physics to real physicists and concentrating on optimising the mass market potential. All the evidence suggests that as far as Steorn are concerned, they know they're legit - the jury process and even the products now in mass production are just "box-ticking excersises" according to the CEO - just for validation and public acceptance purposes.

They're in the process now of setting up a team of 200 forum members to help implement the open sourcing resources - i've applied, so hopefully they'll send me an NDA soon... the 200 that make up the final selection will recieve full disclosure as part of the process. However by April, everyone, everywhere, will have full access to the know-how.

So while what remains of my common sense is still telling me to get a grip, i'm also too impatient to wait a few months and find out along with everyone else... it's just too amazing, and their approach is just too plausible, self-consistent, sincere and up-front, etc. etc.

If i do find out before April i'll be able to troll it up nicely... "sorry, NDA, can't say jack except IT WORKS!" bwahahaha...;) And if i had any energy or related stocks, i'd be dumping 'em right about now.

I'm probably just a sucker tho...
 
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Bounder

Bounder
yeah, i readed all the press. pretty much what you'd expect - everyone and his dog sees an opportunity to prove their smarts naysaying what they think is impossible. The best source of info tho is Steorn themselves, plenty there on their forums. So far the only evidence against them is the utter absurdity of the claim - aside from that, they've got everything going for them imo. besides, wiki is the last place to go for objectivity, least of all on sommik ths controversial...

yep, i'm a mug takin it seriously before i've actually got a PMM sitting here on me desk... i'll happily be proven wrong tho. i think scam or hoax can be ruled out, ditto mistake (the claimed power density is too high) or reality tv stunt, so not sure what other options might be. but even if it ain't the golden goose at least i'll have brushed up on me physics and calc.

and i'll never believe in anything ever again, ever... :eek:
 

Steve O B Have

Steve O B Have
Bounder said:
yeah, i readed all the press. pretty much what you'd expect - everyone and his dog sees an opportunity to prove their smarts naysaying what they think is impossible. The best source of info tho is Steorn themselves, plenty there on their forums. So far the only evidence against them is the utter absurdity of the claim - aside from that, they've got everything going for them imo. besides, wiki is the last place to go for objectivity, least of all on sommik ths controversial...

yep, i'm a mug takin it seriously before i've actually got a PMM sitting here on me desk... i'll happily be proven wrong tho. i think scam or hoax can be ruled out, ditto mistake (the claimed power density is too high) or reality tv stunt, so not sure what other options might be. but even if it ain't the golden goose at least i'll have brushed up on me physics and calc.

and i'll never believe in anything ever again, ever... :eek:
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I don't think that the problem is in it being impossible, merely improbable. It's certainly not a case of scientists going "well this violates some pretty fundamental laws of physics so we wont bother investigating it" because the theory has been around for a very long time.

The way that I would personally approach this is

- Steorn is doing this for the betterment of the planet? Maybe.
- Steorn is doing this for personal gain? That in itself is a given and to be honest if I managed to develop something like this then I also would use it for some personal gain.

Now for me here is the kicker

- Steorn are doing everything in their on right to protect themselves and their 'technology'? Most definitely not - they have not filed one, not one, patent around this technology stating that the patent office will not allow them to patent a Perpetual Motion Machine of the First Kind - and as the Wiki states, incorrectly so. The case is that the international patent offices will patent the device if a working example can be demonstrated.

Lets examine this a little. Every company in every industry that has ever produced a 'money turning' product has rigorously patented every aspect of it. Why? Because if they don't every tom d*ck and harry are going to steal it and use it. How much money would Steorn and their investors get? Nil, Zip, diddly squat. Why have Steorn not covered themselves? Are they the skunk works where the end result is not going to be allowed into circulation till a good 40 years have gone past? No. My personal take on it is that they simply can't exhibit an honestly working example of their machine.

From a business perspective they are employing what we call "smoke and mirrors". What have they delivered so far? Promises? Yup - do you know how much money a promise is worth?

Why have they not secured a major investor? - Food for thought.

Now we have something of a problem here - you get your information from the Steorn site. Can you possibly see some issues with validating the 'facts' delivered by Steorn on the Steorn site? It's like going to George Bush and asking "Did you have anything to personally gain from causing a war?" - "Of course not" he's say - "I did it for the good of the world!". Because he said it, it must be true.

Now for the catch 22

My evidence is based around the information posted on the Wikipedia site, however I must point out that the source of the information is actually from some very reputable sources and are referenced at the bottom of the article. The unfortunate side of the argument is that we can argue back and forwards and since neither of us are prepared to accept the validity of the others argument - we are at something of a stalemate. The final word is going to be from Steorn and if and when they produce their generator.
 

Steve O B Have

Steve O B Have
Interestingly I have had a look at the Steorn Website and seen their Validation Process documentation. I believe that they have made a fatal flaw in judgement, or a rather deliberate choice in how they are going to 'validate' their technology.

Steorn said:
Pre-Phase I Current Phase
Analyse list of scientists, contact and verify interest, choose twelve and negotiate terms.

Steorn has finished reviewing and short-listing all credentials sent in as part of the Jury application process.

The resulting short-list includes all applicants who filed sufficient details.

Combined, these applicants represent: 262 degrees, 127 masters degrees, 103 doctorates, 3074 published academic papers and 4220 years of experience.

We will complete the signing of contracts with the chosen scientists by Friday December 1st and anticipate that testing will begin early in the New Year.
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Hmmmm - "Analyse list of scientists, contact and verify interest, choose twelve and negotiate terms." - I would be very interested to see these terms, and I would also be very interested to find out who these "chosen scientists" are and by what merits Steorn have chosen them.

"Combined, these applicants represent: 262 degrees, 127 masters degrees, 103 doctorates, 3074 published academic papers and 4220 years of experience." - Sooooooooooooooooooooooo - this proves what? I'm interested in the 12 scientists that they have chosen, not the 480 they rejected.

"THERE IS NO TRANSPARANCY" For all we know they have chosen these scientist because they will accept a sum of money to 'validate' Steorns product - Between you and I this is either a really well instigated hoax or something that is going to rock not only the scientific comunity but the international comunity as a whole.

The thing I can't understand is: Why don't they just come out and prove it? Why don't they just show people?
 

Bounder

Bounder
@SteveH - all excellent points. The wiki isn't great, contradicts itself in a few places and needs a clean up. The suggestion has been that they have in fact applied for patents, without problems. A couple have already been found by forum members - one i think was a low-energy magnetic actuator w/ zero friction, but Steorn stated this had been intended for an earlier incarnation of the tech, and that the component wasn't/isn't used in their current mechanisms. CEO Sean McCarthy has also stated it is possible to patent parts of a PMM easier than the whole shebang. The Brit Patent office actually has a special desk for this type of claim, as i think does the US. SO rumours regarding patents are unsubtantiated at this time. Sean has made it clear that being a law or property of nature makes the process itself unpatentable, so what they've been doing is patenting the optimum trajectories and techniques for exploiting the effect. I'd imagine this would be a lot of patents. These may be buried for up to 18 months in the innitial submission phase. The imminent open sourcing of the technology suggests adequate protection will be in place by the time full public disclosure is allowed - ie. they're ostensibly 'good to go' in this respect.

WRT promises, none have been made AFAIK, and Steorn have consistently told everyone not to 'believe' anything until independent validation in April. Most of the believers are going by the sum of the evidence presented, while most of the skeptics seem to base their beliefs on speculation - though it's admittedly hard to be a fence sitter with something so profound...

Regarding major investors, they do appear to have secured serious backing w/ seriously deep pockets. Everything about them says Confidence. If they were asking for money (like all the other OU claimants) then that wouldn't look good. But they're doing the opposite - refusing new investors until validation, and even open sourcing the technology for all and sundry. Only manufacturers will have to buy a licence - but everyone will be able to download the know-how for free. It appears hobbyists and humanitarian developers won't be pursued for licence infringments, IIUC.

Regarding using Steorn as a prime information source, well, they are. Everything else written about them is 3rd party. However we can all check out their maths and physics, and so far they're tight. A previously little known potential has been discussed in some detail, and many forum members (including muggins) have read up on the magnetodynamic phenomena underlying their tech. It all checks out... and it's mostly A-level stuff, no 'new physics' - although we've recently looked at a simple experiment suggesting energy can be made to "disappear" - the details are in the "kinetica" thread on their forum. The implication there seems to be that if energy can be destroyed (or at least "lost") in a simple magnetic interaction, then the inverse may also be possible. But this of course has yet to be experimentally confirmed... an actual simulation of this particular experiment involving forum volunteers is planned for the near future.

Regarding jury selection, two have been confirmed by the forum rep as top drawer. However the terms are that they must remain anonymous until they go public. The primary stipulation is that the jurors must publish their findings, whatever they may be - this was due to them being initially stitched up by the universities who wouldn't/coudn't go public with their validations for whatever conflicts of interest. The jurors have (moderate) expenses paid for by Steorn, and recieve 2 grand afterwards which they're free to donate to a charity of their choice. The reason they need full academic validation is precisely because of the need for concrete proof - so we couldn't really ask for more definitive evidence without asking them to shoot themselves in the foot. I'd imagine by April all the jurors will have gone public. Phase 3 (full thermodynamic analysis) will be ongoing, though Steorn are confident the energy really is being "created" / destroyed. However phase 1 and 2 shouldn't take more than a few weeks at most - w/ power density at 2.5kW per cubic centimetre the machine would stop in no time if it was using itself as fuel. New scientist had a reporter at the London demo, but are keeping shtoom so far. Steorn has also had a documentary film crew following them round for the last two or three years, so all may be revealed in time...

But you're right, and it's been said before - this is either a new paridigm in physics or a new paradigm in hoaxes. Either way, it's a hell of a ride...:confused:
 

Bounder

Bounder
it's a darn sight more likely than OU...

Edit: They've just released more info on the patents and why they're giving the knowledge away in comments here.
 
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Kipper

K
I think that they genuinely believe that they've created something. Whether or not they have is up for discussion... and of course proof all in good time. I'm on the fence. I want it to be true, but i'm gonna wait to find out either way.

IMO there is no cause for physicists saying what is and is not possible, our interpretation of the laws of physics are not concrete, they're just the most sensible and workable theories of the day and are subject to change if a better one comes along.

The world really does need a solution to the energy crisis, in that we don't have enough and making it is really dirty. This would be ideal.

One fear is that they might be right, only so might the current understanding of physics, so if energy can't be created or destroyed, and it has to be converted from one thing to another - that this machine might work but might be extracting energy from something we can't measure. It might be like smoking, nobody thought it was going to hurt anyone when they first started doing it.... so if they build enough of these big energy machines to shut down the regular power stations and then we suddenly find out the world is getting colder, or the earths gravity / magnetic field is being eaten away or something, we'll all bit a bit miffed.

Look forward to not having to fill my car up with fuel tho, its incredibly thirsty :/
 

Steve O B Have

Steve O B Have
I sense a slowly sinking ship here:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/6283374.stm

The demonstration was to run over 10 days starting on 6 July. Unfortunately, there was a technical defect, attributed by Mr McCarthy to the excessive heat produced by lights used to illuminate the device so that cameras could stream pictures of it in action across the web.
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Hmmm - I guess they didn't think to turn out the lights...

It's not looking good for Steorn with dispelling the laws of Thermodynamics and Conservation of Energy.
 

Bounder

Bounder
lotta ppl angry and dissapointed, Steorn's future on the rocks... but such is the depth of my delusion i still think they have something. I made it into the SPDC and i've seen gain configs on paper, and could also point out a gaping hole in current magnetic theory wrt conservation, tho prob not prudent to discuss at this stage.

Full disclosure is now promised to SPDC members so within a week or two i should know whether or not i've been wasting my time - along with many others - trying to get to grips with this.

I remain unconvinced energy creation is involved as anything else seems more likely, zpe etc. or most likely of all, just efficient conservation wrt time - ie. all it will prove is CoE, and if it does anything interesting at all it does it because of CoE and not in spite of it.

If it does anything at all of course. Don't hold yer breath eh... :eek:
 

essezeta

E
Sound interesting to me, but usually I'm quite skeptic about free energy.
As far as nothing has been proved to generate more energy than you put in it for now. But I'm quite sure that someday something will be invented. The only thing is that I'll do as St. Thomas (Italian motto: "If I don't see I don't believe").

Another interesting discussion about this "frontier" science may be the ASPS department.
This italian researchers claim to be the new Marconi (they not directly say that, but this scientist is frequentely named).
I read from their site that they've found a way to create thrust without expelling mass using electromagnetic field in contrast with Maxwell's theory.
I managed to understand that the revolution is that their device casts an electromagnetic field around the thruster, wich polarizes itself to actually "swim" in the field, due the fact that this field is independent from the device once emitted (I wrote a similar idea in this forum for EIV :D). This implies that reaction mass is closely related to avaliable energy in the system. They write that theorically a spaceship equipped with a nuclear generator and this propulsion device (described as plates that contains thousand of "dipoles" that cover the spaceship) can reach Mars within 3 days :eek:

A prototype is built and it's working. They'd shown it last year in a meeting to financers and military representatives

I don't really know if we can trust them. Someone call them liars, other geniuses.
I know that they're studying this system since early 80's. The were searching for founds until last year, when they finally announced that they had been financed by a phantomatic "Marconi Dynamics" a formal name to mantain secret their principal investor. As far as I know even Italian defence is interested in their invention (although the sad italian situation sustains a continous shortage of foundings :( ). I don't think they're liars for many reasons, the main is they ask money to companies, not to privates. Anyway, dreams are still for free ;)


What do you think?

P.S: their site is intentionally ugly, but this is a long story :p
 
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snotface

snotface
i think that the world could do with a Bionic Military Drive.

One that flips out massive Radio actives by the 100T and dose crap MPG lol

I want a class 8 Militery Drive on a Cobra Mk1 and it dose 1000Light Years to the Metric Gallon Of Radio active Cat Pi55.


I think you can all agree that we need something worth while to talk about.

they flame when you can SUPER FLAME
 

Bounder

Bounder
Wow.... the ASPS drive is intruiging, never heard of it before. If it's for real it makes the Shawyer drive look a bit naff. If that's real too of course.

Do keep us posted of any news eh...
 
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