Becoming Wanted for attacking a Wanted target

[Riepah]

Receiving a bounty for attacking a Wanted target before finishing the scan makes no sense. If they scan me and do their usual "What treats do you carry, I wonder?" and "No cargo? Useless dreg." sketch, I already know they're a pirate, and should not be penalized for attacking them, just because my scan isn't finished yet. I finished the scan after my initial attack and confirmed, yes, it was a Wanted target, obviously.
I just got Wanted status for attacking the third of a bunch of pirates who were about to rob me/a trader in the vicinity.

 

[mrinku]

Those are the rules. Contact your local government representitive to complain, or take it to the space courts.

And you're not correct. It's rare, but possible that one or more of those lurking scanners *don't* yet have a bounty as scanning is not a crime in itself and they may not have attacked anyone in that jurisdiction yet. Loitering with intent is not assault, and presumption of innocence applies.

Your behaviour is only justified in lawless areas, where Han can indeed shoot first and get away with it.

What you have in fact done is pull a gun on and shoot a guy who was sizing you up, but who had not, in fact, done anything to you (and in this case if you weren't carrying cargo wasn't going to). That's not self-defence, but murder. The fact that you later determined that he was a wanted felon does not change that. If you were a cop, you'd be in deep, deep trouble.

 

[Riepah]

Those are the rules. Contact your local government representitive to complain, or take it to the space courts.

And how do you suppose Authorities, who aren't even present on-site, know whether or not I waited for my scan to finish before firing?

 

[mrinku]

The same way they know when guys start shooting at *you*. You should assume the NPCs all have the "Report all crimes against me" box checked.

At the very least your own ship's black box/log is going to show the truth. Theirs would as well.

Pretty sure it all gets broadcast as a radio signal to the nearest station and/or patrol. Uninhabited, uncontrolled systems don't count, obviously.

 

[Riepah]

What you have in fact done is pull a gun on and shoot a guy who was sizing you up, but who had not, in fact, done anything to you (and in this case if you weren't carrying cargo wasn't going to). That's not self-defence, but murder. The fact that you later determined that he was a wanted felon does not change that. If you were a cop, you'd be in deep, deep trouble.

It was hardly murder, as all I did before my scan finished was scratch his shields a little. It's more akin to pulling a gun and firing a warning shot at one of a group of three thugs after dispatching his two gangmembers who were criminals, wanted dead, about to rob an innocent merchant. By the time I did any real damage, the scan was long finished - but the bounty applies at the first little stray shot scratching anybody's shields, intentionally or not.

Considering that an Authority ship once jumped in on me and opened fire immediately, even though I had neither a bounty, nor a fine, I really don't think the AI's behaviour as well as current IFF issues can all be explained away by saying "it's intended to be this way".
So no, if I were a cop, I wouldn't be in deep, deep trouble at all in this game, because cops in this game can do whatever they want with impunity.

 

[06casualty]

Wait, so I have to have a warrant scanner so the feds don't attack me for attacking a warranted target?

That will make them stop attacking me?

Wow.

And the possibility of not being me vs. universe.

 

[Riepah]

Wait, so I have to have a warrant scanner so the feds don't attack me for attacking a warranted target?

That will make them stop attacking me?

Wow.

And the possibility of not being me vs. universe.

No, no. We're talking about the default scanning here - the "target, look at and wait" kind of thing. If it's a "Wanted" target, but you shoot it before determining that it is, indeed, "Wanted", you incur a bounty, for some reason. Kill Warrant Scanners show you bounties a target may have in different systems than the one you are currently in, but for whether or not you get a bounty on yourself for attacking them, only their bounty in the current system matters.

 

[SgtLennin]

No, no. We're talking about the default scanning here - the "target, look at and wait" kind of thing. If it's a "Wanted" target, but you shoot it before determining that it is, indeed, "Wanted", you incur a bounty, for some reason. Kill Warrant Scanners show you bounties a target may have in different systems than the one you are currently in, but for whether or not you get a bounty on yourself for attacking them, only their bounty in the current system matters.

OK, but I once got 'wanted' defending myself. I didn't scan and check of course. Except for the Netherlands maybe

 

[Caspar]

I've had it numerous time where, with the default scanner, I've attacked a wanted target and incurred a bounty and had the local fuzz attack me for the princely bounty sum of 100 - 200 credits. It turns out that some of the local factions I could attack and some I couldn't. Ended up having to check the details of my contacts before engaging each and every time.

 

[Riepah]

OK, but I once got 'wanted' defending myself. I didn't scan and check of course. Except for the Netherlands maybe

Yeah, sometimes Clear ships attacked me for no reason, too. And once a police ship did, as mentioned above, I even made a thread about it. Honestly, at the moment the whole friend/foe system of the game still needs some work, there is some very wonky stuff going on here and there.

 

[Valcrow]

It actually makes a lot of sense...

There is a crime reporting module on every ship, if you go to the right screen you can turn this puppy on and off. So automatically all crimes will be reported to the current jurisdiction of the system regardless of if there is police presence.

An assault charge is placed on you if you attack a clean ship. You cannot know for sure if it is clean or not until your scan is completed so it makes sense that unidentified should be considered clean. You know innocent until proven guilty?

There are some ships that are clean that will attack you and incur a bounty right then and there. Those ships are clean until they commit a crime. The exact same crime that you would commit if you just shot someone because you 'knew' they were guilty.

So justice is working fairly and consistently throughout the system. Plus we're talking about 5 seconds of scanning here... just wait the extra few seconds before opening fire. Just like how you need to be careful not to shoot innocent ships between you and your target, flying around with illegal cargo etc.

About the warrant scanners, they only tell you about a bounty in another jurisdiction. Being a criminal in one jurisdiction does not automatically make you a criminal in your current one. For example, you could be a criminal in North Korea, but if someone executed you in North America, your executioner would face murder charges. (but if he gets away to North Korea, they might give him some bounty money.)


The only big exception to star law is the feds. They shoot you and don't incur any bounty, their buddies turn on you when you shoot a wanted fed without incuring bounties. They could even start shooting you for going after bounties. Police brutality & government corruption at it's finest.

 

[darkcyd]

Those are the rules. Contact your local government representitive to complain, or take it to the space courts.

And you're not correct. It's rare, but possible that one or more of those lurking scanners *don't* yet have a bounty as scanning is not a crime in itself and they may not have attacked anyone in that jurisdiction yet. Loitering with intent is not assault, and presumption of innocence applies.

Your behaviour is only justified in lawless areas, where Han can indeed shoot first and get away with it.

What you have in fact done is pull a gun on and shoot a guy who was sizing you up, but who had not, in fact, done anything to you (and in this case if you weren't carrying cargo wasn't going to). That's not self-defence, but murder. The fact that you later determined that he was a wanted felon does not change that. If you were a cop, you'd be in deep, deep trouble.

I was with you right up until you said "if you were a cop." If you were a cop, the DA would have provided a substandard amount of information to the grand jury so he could maintain his relationship with the PD and they'd have let you off. But since you are a bounty hunter civilian, you gots to die. Sorry

 

[Riepah]

It actually makes a lot of sense...

There is a crime reporting module on every ship, if you go to the right screen you can turn this puppy on and off. So automatically all crimes will be reported to the current jurisdiction of the system regardless of if there is police presence.

An assault charge is placed on you if you attack a clean ship. You cannot know for sure if it is clean or not until your scan is completed so it makes sense that unidentified should be considered clean. You know innocent until proven guilty?

If the target ship's computer is what reports me to the Law, how come it refuses to report my assault if I scan it first? That ship knows damn well it's Wanted in this system, it'll be giving its pilot a hard-to-miss red warning about it. Whether I scan it or not shouldn't matter to it at all. Assaults on Wanted targets aren't crimes.

 

[RyanBurnsRed]

This was happening to me before and I even made a thread about it a couple weeks ago. It seems to have been fixed since I've been bounty hunting non-stop throughout the week.
However it seems when they fixed this problem they broke something else. Now instead of becoming wanted when attacking a wanted ship, the Feds would turn red and start attacking me and in the Comms window they'll say "Crime Detection!"

I'm still clean, however they seem to think I'm now a criminal and won't leave me alone unless I jump. Other NPCs of certain factions would turn red and begin to attack me. The funny thing is, they do not become wanted for attacking me, but the moment my lasers touch them I become wanted. So killing one of their buddies for a bounty gave them a free pass to come after me even though I didn't commit any crime...

The game is seriously messed up and I wish they'd fix it soon. I don't know what mrinku and Valcrow are smoking, but I want some of what they're having if it'll make the game become enjoyable again because attacking a wanted target should not make you become wanted. It's a bug that has been reported by many people many times. How these 2 see it as how the game is supposed to be is astounding.

 

[CMDR Saunders]

You can't shoot someone in the face and THEN check their house to find corpses and severed heads and expect everything to be A-OKAY. Doesn't work that way. Evidence first, then reaction. What if he WASN'T a pirate... but just attacked piratey? You never know until you scan.

 

[themodman101]

So basically Scan before you plan? lol Sounds like an add for one of the in engine news sections. XD

 

[Riepah]

You can't shoot someone in the face and THEN check their house to find corpses and severed heads and expect everything to be A-OKAY. Doesn't work that way. Evidence first, then reaction. What if he WASN'T a pirate... but just attacked piratey? You never know until you scan.

I'm totally fine with receiving a bounty if my target does indeed turn out to be a Clean one, but as long as it turns out to be a Wanted one, it makes no sense to receive a bounty for attacking it.
If they really don't want us to fire before finishing scans, they shouldn't make pirates so very damn obvious with their "I see all!" scan messages, because neither police nor bounty hunters say anything when they start scanning, only when they finish.
It also doesn't really make sense from an immersion standpoint, does it? Every pirate sends a message to let you know "Hey, I'm a pirate" and every bounty hunter and policeman silently scans to make it clear to you they're not pirates?

If you think it "makes sense" that we become Wanted for attacking a Wanted target without scanning it, then, please, make them behave in a way that "makes sense" as well.

 

[Oethe]

It actually makes a lot of sense...

There is a crime reporting module on every ship, if you go to the right screen you can turn this puppy on and off. So automatically all crimes will be reported to the current jurisdiction of the system regardless of if there is police presence.

An assault charge is placed on you if you attack a clean ship. You cannot know for sure if it is clean or not until your scan is completed so it makes sense that unidentified should be considered clean. You know innocent until proven guilty?

There are some ships that are clean that will attack you and incur a bounty right then and there. Those ships are clean until they commit a crime. The exact same crime that you would commit if you just shot someone because you 'knew' they were guilty.

So justice is working fairly and consistently throughout the system. Plus we're talking about 5 seconds of scanning here... just wait the extra few seconds before opening fire. Just like how you need to be careful not to shoot innocent ships between you and your target, flying around with illegal cargo etc.

About the warrant scanners, they only tell you about a bounty in another jurisdiction. Being a criminal in one jurisdiction does not automatically make you a criminal in your current one. For example, you could be a criminal in North Korea, but if someone executed you in North America, your executioner would face murder charges. (but if he gets away to North Korea, they might give him some bounty money.)


The only big exception to star law is the feds. They shoot you and don't incur any bounty, their buddies turn on you when you shoot a wanted fed without incuring bounties. They could even start shooting you for going after bounties. Police brutality & government corruption at it's finest.

Get off whatever horse you are riding. A person should not need to Scan a Wanted target that can even SHOOT you before you can return fire as you have yet to finish scanning them. It is a mechanic that needs work. Simple as that.