BGS and commodities prices?

[KRONFROMGALVATRON]

Sorry if this stirs up a firestorm, but I'm just wondering if what I've observed when trying to do some light trading just for kicks is a symptomatic of BGS glitches or whether there are complexities I'm not taking into account. By light trading I mean I'm not grinding imperial slaves and platinum (been there, done that) but am rather attempting to find moderately profitable short distance runs based on commodities market boards and in-game tools.

However, when taking low volumes of some 'test' commodities between systems, I find that very very rarely do I find profits where I expect to see them based on posted supply/demand numbers or the highlighted trade route lines shown in the galaxy map.

Does govt type etc affect commodity prices? I'm just trying to figure out what it is I'm missing, it's so vexing.

I've tried to read up on the BGS but most of the material and posts I've found are more related to factions and influence than commodities.

 

[Navigare Necesse Est]

The highlighted "trade routes" don't seem to be terminal points necessarily. They don't often make sense that way. I believe they rather represent the flow of goods through different systems. Some systems are just stations on the way from origin (highest supply) to destination (highest demand).

 

[PiLhEaD]

Yes, I noticed this too. I'm using Cmdr's Log (a locally hosted best trade calculator, using locally collected data, 'for local people'...) - and since 2.0.05 patch I've seen prices bouncing around like a lead weight on a rubber band. I'm still making a profit, but it's a bit hit and miss at times.

I've also been attacked more since 2.0.05 than I have in quite a while - even whilst routine trading - one a wing of three (easy meat), one a very tough FAS (I ran away at 70% hull).

Blooming GREAT!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[KRONFROMGALVATRON]

I was just surprised to find that more than one commodity with supply above 10,000 in system A and shown to be exported to system B where demand exceeded 10,000 sold at a loss in system B.

I forget the exact systems and commodities and don't have the game fired up right now, I do remember that one system was high tech/refinery and the other industrial/refinary and they were only about 6 ly apart. But this scenario did occur and makes it seem that trying to use the in game info is somewhat pointless if there aren't more subtleties that can be analyzed, understood and used to the player's advantage. I didn't expect large profits, but a loss? Pricing must include some noise/RNG factors then?

Granted I didn't check both stations in system B but the station I was at showed demand for the commodities I was selling and was by far the largest population.

 

[Roybe]

No...the way the economy works has nothing to do with the numeric supply and demand numbers.

First, the 'trade routes' are used to find producers of items. The places the routes point to, might, or might not be profitable. So it's best not to try to use them for that.

As far as the underpinnings of the economy, all items have a starting credit amount they are worth in a given system. Let's look at scrap:

scrap in system A is 20 credits for sale and in system B it is 40 credits to buy.

Moving the scrap from a to b is quite profitable...and will hold it's price from the time you find it, until the next BGS tick. At which point the price in A moves to the galactic median and the Price in B moves to the galactic median. Although counterintuitive, it does make sense...manufacturing will increase in A with a push to median and demand is being sated in B with again a move toward median.

Now...you get to the point where it is not worth the effort to continue this route. And leave. Over the next few days (Background Simulation ticks -BGS*) the price moves back to the original sale price...as long as no one else goes into that system.

Once starting levels are met, all data is removed from the system, and the process will only start back up when another commander, or yourself will go back into that system and start trading again. Basically, no commanders in systems, nothing happens.

 

[dynamicbob]

this isnt star citizen with real dynamic markets that react to all sorts of things

 

[Miklos Atreides]

this isnt star citizen with real dynamic markets that react to all sorts of things

Is Star Citizen having it? Has anyone proofed it by playing the final game?

But anyway, I agree this is the thing that lacks a lot in Elite. BGS is behaving to slow and the markets not being traded to are not in calculation. So there is no dynamic
because of no real Items and Resource transfers. Prerequisites for that are Persistent NPCs, Limited Resources, and a real production output and demand logic based
on PP, Minor faction, Population, Traffic, Technical Level,...

Lots of things to do here, but most Players want shiny things, and battle and fight dynamics are at a higher priority. So need to wait some time to get better markets.

Regards,
Miklos

 

[Bokugo]

Yeah the majority of the time I check out the commodities, I see almost everything with any level of demand being bought for less than the galactic average. Imo if there is any demand there should be profit. And demand needs to affect prices more than it should so 90% of the commodities aren't useless. A starving station should pay a premium for food, because why would anyone sell food for a loss when they can just stuff that station full of metal?

 

[orfeboy]

this isnt star citizen with real dynamic markets that react to all sorts of things

Is Star Citizen actually DOING this or is Star Citizen just talking about DOING it?

You see, I see a lot of computer games claiming to be DOING things or PLANNING to do things, including this one.

That does not make them fact. The proof is in the eating.

 

[Jintosh]

this isnt star citizen with real dynamic markets that react to all sorts of things

Actually, as I keep a log of my trades, I can say the BGS does a reasonably good impression of this. I rarely get to make the same amount of profit on something if I trade it over the course of an evening. If I'm in a system where there are a lot of commanders trading, then that chance sinks dramatically.

Case in point: last week taking Tea from Utgaroar to LFT 37 gave the best profit per ton out of the potential profit-making goods. Last night shipping 212 tonnes of Tea made me a loss of nearly 10,000 credits. The move from profit to loss per ton was something I watched over a few days before switching to another goods, which has halved in profit made over the last couple of days too now (I had the money to spare for the Tea trade and wanted to see how bad it had got, plus for the first time in a couple of days there was enough for a full hold)

Now, it's certainly not perfect, but a certain dynamism is definitely there.

 

[Jex =TE=]

Is Star Citizen actually DOING this or is Star Citizen just talking about DOING it?

You see, I see a lot of computer games claiming to be DOING things or PLANNING to do things, including this one.

That does not make them fact. The proof is in the eating.

According to this thread from 2 months ago, no, SC doesn't have any trading.

https://www.reddit.com/r/starcitize..._the_current_word_on_basic_commodity_trading/

 

[Hilight]

Actually, as I keep a log of my trades, I can say the BGS does a reasonably good impression of this. I rarely get to make the same amount of profit on something if I trade it over the course of an evening. If I'm in a system where there are a lot of commanders trading, then that chance sinks dramatically.

Case in point: last week taking Tea from Utgaroar to LFT 37 gave the best profit per ton out of the potential profit-making goods. Last night shipping 212 tonnes of Tea made me a loss of nearly 10,000 credits. The move from profit to loss per ton was something I watched over a few days before switching to another goods, which has halved in profit made over the last couple of days too now (I had the money to spare for the Tea trade and wanted to see how bad it had got, plus for the first time in a couple of days there was enough for a full hold)

Now, it's certainly not perfect, but a certain dynamism is definitely there.

I agree with you. The economy is dynamic without a doubt. I play the game primarily as a trader and I see prices fluctuate all the time, especially if I'm in a medium sized ship trading with outposts and stations or in a big ship. I normally spread my trading around between several systems instead of dong A>B>A routes in order to avoid commodity price drops. If the economy in Elite wasn't dynamic the prices entered into the third party trade tools would always be correct, when in fact they rarely are and the prices in the trade tools also wouldn't have to be updated all the time.

 

[StuF]

this isnt star citizen with real dynamic markets that react to all sorts of things

Is Star Citizen actually DOING this or is Star Citizen just talking about DOING it?

You see, I see a lot of computer games claiming to be DOING things or PLANNING to do things, including this one.

That does not make them fact. The proof is in the eating.

According to this thread from 2 months ago, no, SC doesn't have any trading.

https://www.reddit.com/r/starcitize..._the_current_word_on_basic_commodity_trading/

lol - another Star Citizen fanboy who is referring to the game that isnt even released!
Mega lols

 

[Jex =TE=]

I agree with you. The economy is dynamic without a doubt. I play the game primarily as a trader and I see prices fluctuate all the time, especially if I'm in a medium sized ship trading with outposts and stations or in a big ship. I normally spread my trading around between several systems instead of dong A>B>A routes in order to avoid commodity price drops. If the economy in Elite wasn't dynamic the prices entered into the third party trade tools would always be correct, when in fact they rarely are and the prices in the trade tools also wouldn't have to be updated all the time.

How much per ton do they fluctuate by?

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lol - another Star Citizen fanboy who is referring to the game that isnt even released!
Mega lols

No it's worse than that - he's referring to a mechanic that isn't even in the alpha "but might be"

 

[Lily from anim.o.v.e]

I agree with you. The economy is dynamic without a doubt. I play the game primarily as a trader and I see prices fluctuate all the time, especially if I'm in a medium sized ship trading with outposts and stations or in a big ship. I normally spread my trading around between several systems instead of dong A>B>A routes in order to avoid commodity price drops. If the economy in Elite wasn't dynamic the prices entered into the third party trade tools would always be correct, when in fact they rarely are and the prices in the trade tools also wouldn't have to be updated all the time.

It's not relly dynamic. dynamic would mean higher supply leads to higher output, on processing facilities. All i is "dynamic" is a bit variety of goods when a LOAD of trading happens. But sooner or later it returns to initial values. Rather much sooner than later. There is no system behind it which involes export and import, population, processing demand and basic demand.

 

[Hilight]

How much per ton do they fluctuate by?

It depends on the commodity--- 50-300cr's. It is enough to turn lucrative routes into ones that you'd likely not want to fly. Some prices are pretty stable such as Thorium, while others seem to vary from day to day or even trip to trip. There is an outpost to station loop I use from time to time hauling Palladium and the prices are good for maybe two or three trips per outpost, then it's time to move on. Some say the prices don't vary enough, but they are quite suitable for the purposes of the game economy.

 

[orfeboy]

It depends on the commodity--- 50-300cr's. It is enough to turn lucrative routes into ones that you'd likely not want to fly. Some prices are pretty stable such as Thorium, while others seem to vary from day to day or even trip to trip. There is an outpost to station loop I use from time to time hauling Palladium and the prices are good for maybe two or three trips per outpost, then it's time to move on. Some say the prices don't vary enough, but they are quite suitable for the purposes of the game economy.

The economy in Elite is very uncomplicated. The more you buy a commodity the more expensive it will become. The more you sell it somewhere the less return it will give. It is simple supply and demand. Every system has a base trade sheet. Activity pushes these prices up or down as already described until they hit a certain threshold. Then the price will rise or fall.

Leave the system alone for a day or two and the base level sheet will return to normal.

This base level sheet is a constant. The only exception to this is when certain states are active in the game such as boom or bust. These affect the availablity and price and basically just introduce an alternative sheet for the period they are active.

It is no more complicated than that.

All the base sheets for a station are independent entities. They do not communicate with the economy of any other system in the game. They are self contained.

It is an unbelieveably uncomplicated system. There is nothing dynamic about it.

 

[Shadowdancer]

However, when taking low volumes of some 'test' commodities between systems, I find that very very rarely do I find profits where I expect to see them based on posted supply/demand numbers or the highlighted trade route lines shown in the galaxy map.

The basic "problem" there I think is that the existing trade routes already satisfy enough of the demand and take up enough of the supply to take the edge off prices. If you want lucrative trade routes, you need to think a bit further (even spatially) and make sure the place you're buying from doesn't have too much active export already and that the destination isn't swamped by surrounding high-output systems. A small industrial economy surrounded by several large agricultural systems will be unlikely to have much use for the tea you bring them.

 

[Hilight]

It is an unbelieveably uncomplicated system. There is nothing dynamic about it.

It doesn't matter how complicated or simple the economy is. If it moves at all it is by definition 'dynamic.' Since the prices in Elite move, they are, in fact, dynamic. The fact that they go up and down are why the third party tools need constant updates and are rarely very accurate. It is also the reason why Commanders tend not to advertise the really good routes they find as doing so would dump the prices because lots of other players would rush to trade there. Those of you who insist the prices aren't dynamic appear to be oblivious to the way we all play the game as it reflects quite clearly that the prices move.

 

[specialsymbol]

Maybe dynamic should be replaced by erratic.

Dynamic implies some sort of driver other than chance..


I can confirm that it is dynamic, though. When you grind the ImpS / Platinum with a T9 or Anaconda you can watch prices drop with each trip - every time some few solid percent.