BH: Viper mk. III failed, Vulture time?

[Shiro Akai]

o7 CMDRs,

so I followed given advice, prepared Viper toward bounty hunting and went for nav beacon for some training. I have engaged total of 4 enemies. 3 I "defeated", one I ran away from.


- first I stripped out of his shields, then he went away from my shooting arc and while I was trying to get behind, system police finished him off. 40k cr bounty claimed. So far so good.
- second I managed to land few shield hits, target evaded me and got evaporated by other ships. Didn't even got any bounty claim notice.
- third was Master Adder. Thought I can do it. Adder is quite small tho that Master bothered me a bit. Engaged. Stripped out his shields and landed few MC shots. And the dance started. We were circling around each other for good 5 minutes, him being constantly on top or behind me. All PIPs into engines, constant boosting and all I managed was to see him passing through, landing a shot or two on my shields. After 5 minutes of such pointless flying I low waked out.
- one target I didn't even managed to get into range before it was gone.
- fourth enemy I hit few times, reduced shields and then landed few laser hits onto bare hull. Missclicked and instead of MC shots I cleared the target - heat of the battle. Shortly after he was dead and I was granted 60k bounty claim.

Rebuy was 104k so I called it a day and went to base to cash in. Turned out I had 3 claims for 110k total (someone killed that Adder? or game registered my 2nd enemy? Who knows). About 20 minutes gave me nav beacon hunting enough credits to cover my eventual rebuy if that would happen.

After landing I made situation summary. Maybe hasty conclusion, further training required and overall skill polishing but I found Viper mk. III lacking. My build was as follow:

Spoiler

Viper MkIII
M: 2F/G Multi-cannon
M: 2F/G Multi-cannon
S: 1G/G Burst Laser
S: 1G/G Burst Laser

U: 0C Kill Warrant Scanner

BH: 1A Military Grade Composite
PP: 3A Power Plant
TH: 3A Thrusters
FD: 2E Frame Shift Drive
LS: 2E Life Support
PD: 3A Power Distributor
SS: 3A Sensors
FT: 2C Fuel Tank (Capacity: 4)

3: 3A Shield Generator

11.57 / 12 MW (96%) deployed

Although I could strip my target's shields fairly satisfactory and attempt to finish it with MCs I was unable to stay on target. I was outmaneuvered easily, even PIP management didn't help much. My survivability wasn't in question, my agility was enough to stay away from being shoot at but not enough to shoot at them. So I jumped to conclusion Viper sucks and I need something better.

Everyone praises Vulture so I made quick build. And I'm disappointed since it seems without PP engineering I cannot secure viable build.

This is weaponless build, mostly A-rated with non combat essential modules being as low as possible (hatch is off). And it sits at 99% power already. (!).

Spoiler

Vulture
U: 0A Kill Warrant Scanner

BH: 1C Lightweight Alloy
PP: 4A Power Plant
TH: 5A Thrusters
FD: 2E Frame Shift Drive
LS: 3D Life Support
PD: 5A Power Distributor
SS: 4A Sensors
FT: 3C Fuel Tank (8t)

5: 5A Shield Generator

15.36 / 15.60 MW (98%) deployed

This is above build, just weapons added. And power coverage jumps to 113%.

Spoiler

Vulture
L: 3C/G Beam Laser
L: 3C/F Multi-cannon

U: 0A Kill Warrant Scanner

BH: 1C Lightweight Alloy
PP: 4A Power Plant
TH: 5A Thrusters
FD: 2E Frame Shift Drive
LS: 3D Life Support
PD: 5A Power Distributor
SS: 4A Sensors
FT: 3C Fuel Tank (8t)

5: 5A Shield Generator

17.60 / 15.60 MW (113%) deployed

To counter it I need engineering at at least G2 roll (mediocre one). And where is the place for anything else? Paranoia fueled shield boosters, chaff launchers... We go into god G4 roll or pretty nice G5 overcharged.

A word about setting priorities - tried that with Viper. With A-rated stuff I was power starving heavily. I set power priorities and then something essential was mission. Weapons, shields and PD on - life support offline and 7m till suffocation. Pushed life higher, crime scanner went off. Turned that higher, weapons went off... I had to install lower grade internals and modules to keep things running.

From what I see I need:
- weapons for obvious reasons
- shields to be safe
- PD to keep above recharge fast
- KWS for maxing profit
- life support to stay alive
- sensors to actually detect anything
- FSD to quickly escape when things go south.

There's not much left to turn off. I can only downgrade to meet power requirements but this will cut my performance. Am I that dumb that I cannot create combat worthy A-rated ship or there's something I'm not getting? Or should I farm a Billion to outfit my Anaconda and forget about any issues?

I'm confused, combat looks harder that it seems. And that's even before I take off to do actual combat.

 

[777Driver]

I was outmaneuvered easily, even PIP management didn't help much. My survivability wasn't in question, my agility was enough to stay away from being shoot at but not enough to shoot at them. So I jumped to conclusion Viper sucks and I need something better.

.

Hehe, nothing to do with the cmdr at the controls. Quite a few of us have fought in non engineered Vipers since early Beta. Now of course you could just get the Vulture, you'll be very pleased with your sudden inexplicable increase in skill level..

 

[Stealthie]

Yep.

I usually restrict myself to a G1 overcharged PP because anything more than that makes fuel-scooping a PITA.
On a couple of my ships I have a G2 overcharged PP because I use them for things where fuel-scooping isn't a priority.

My Vulture; G5 overcharged PP. [where is it]


Also, personally I'd suggest "practicing" either at a CNB or a HazRes instead of anywhere else.

You don't have the cops to help you but, OTOH, they don't get in your way or steal your kills either.
It's much more straightforward when you can just pick a wanted target and then just engage in 1 vs 1 combat with them.

 

[Orange Sheets]

Do note also that Viper(mk3) is a zoom'n'boom ship. You can't manage turn-fight with it, but instead have to work on positioning and fast damage delivery. Don't let your speed die or you're in trouble.

Also, eventhough you'd set it up for pure combat, at least D-class those modules. Helps with weight, which again helps with agility and speed.

 

[babelfisch]

Do note also that Viper(mk3) is a zoom'n'boom ship. You can't manage turn-fight with it, but instead have to work on positioning and fast damage delivery. Don't let your speed die or you're in trouble.

Also, eventhough you'd set it up for pure combat, at least D-class those modules. Helps with weight, which again helps with agility and speed.

The trick is to use FA off boosts to turn faster than the AI, works basically in any ship.

 

[CMDR Zadian Lichtfrost]

… So I jumped to conclusion Viper sucks and I need something better.

Everyone praises Vulture so I made quick build. …

I'm confused, combat looks harder that it seems.…

The Viper not a good ship to learn combat in Elite Dangerous. Its "bad" pitch rate makes using all maneuvering thrusters important. In short it requires a certain skill level to get the most out of it.

Outfitting a ship requires a bit of understanding what effect different values of the modules have (weight for example) and how they affect the way you want to use that ship.
For example adding military grade armor to a Viper is probably not a good idea if you want to support the strengths of the Viper (fast non-boost speed).
Using class A sensors on a Vulture - probably the exact opposite of a Viper btw when it comes to combat style- is just a waste of power and weight (but weight doesn't affect the Vulture that much).

Combat requires practice, experience and a bit of knowledge how various weapons, modules and aspects of ships affect the performance of the ship and how this can support the way you want to fight.


PS: I still remember how much I had to fight against the Viper to get her to do what I wanted and how often I screamed "turn, turn, turn". After quite some time I learned how to use that ship, but it is simply not the ship for me. I like the brutish brawling in a Vulture and not the elegant dance the Viper requires.

 

[Shiro Akai]

Hehe, nothing to do with the cmdr at the controls. Quite a few of us have fought in non engineered Vipers since early Beta. Now of course you could just get the Vulture, you'll be very pleased with your sudden inexplicable increase in skill level..

Heh, major and prime issue, that's for sure.

Looks like my diagnosis was somewhat confirmed. Viper is best at hit and run, any prolonged dog fight and we're in trouble, especially when unskilled pilot behind the stick. Sad that non engineered A-rated is not viable. But even with downgraded modules I should see skill increase Now I just need to get some credits because lately I do nothing than spending...

 

[Aashenfox]

The courier is the only small ship anyone ever needs. I prefer it to the vulture simply for the third hardpoint (feedback railgun).

 

[CMDR Zadian Lichtfrost]

…
… Viper is best at hit and run, any prolonged dog fight and we're in trouble, …

You might be in trouble. A Viper can be used for "dogfight" you just need to use all the 6 degrees of freedom. Turning in a Viper Mk III is a bit like drifting in a muscle car. Applying side trust, yaw and some pitch in just the right amount and you can outmaneuver ships with higher pitch rate.

Something else you might want to get familiar with is the different NPC ships and how they usually fly, what they do and what their strengths are. That way you won't make the mistake again to underestimate the Adder (nasty little ship - small, agile, fast and has almost the same* weapons as a Viper)


*) probably very liberal use of almost the same

 

[StiTch]

The trick is to use FA off boosts to turn faster than the AI, works basically in any ship.

Please be careful indiscriminately using techniques such as this. At close range the FA Off boost flip can be a death sentence, especially without correct use of lateral/vertical thrust.

 

[Morbad]

You can't manage turn-fight with it

This is not true.

The trick is to use FA off boosts to turn faster than the AI, works basically in any ship.

I feel the 'trick' is heavy use of the vertical and lateral thrusters, axes where the Viper has superb acceleration.

The Viper not a good ship to learn combat in Elite Dangerous. Its "bad" pitch rate makes using all maneuvering thrusters important. In short it requires a certain skill level to get the most out of it.

This is exactly why I feel the Viper is one of the first ships a player should learn to pilot.

Once you get good with the Viper, you have a leg up with almost everything else, because the Viper is not forgiving.

Sad that non engineered A-rated is not viable.

A slightly older video, but still relevant:

[video=youtube;pwIBz-noZ2M]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pwIBz-noZ2M[/video]

Weapon loadout was just a test, didn't particularly like it much, so don't take my use of it here as a recommendation.

As long as you are careful to not bite off more than you can chew and are wary of SLF equipped ships (well, unless you are much better with rails than I am), the Viper can PvE bounty hunt pretty well.

 

[the100thmonkey]

So I jumped to conclusion Viper sucks and I need something better.

You're doing it wrong.

An unengineered Viper Mk. III is great for a HIRES.

• Its pitchrate sucks balls. You need to learn to learn to FA-off flip at least.
• It really doesn't like bulkheads - it's a bit of a fatty (in terms of how close it gets to optimal mass in a combat fit.) Fitting bulkheads will negatively affect your top speed, pitch-rate and accelerations.
• Its lat/vert thrusters are amazing - use them when flying evasively and to help you get on target.

 

[babelfisch]

Please be careful indiscriminately using techniques such as this. At close range the FA Off boost flip can be a death sentence, especially without correct use of lateral/vertical thrust.

Maybe in PvP. In PvE it doesn't really matter what you are doing... It should be used when you are getting outmaneuvered, I can't see how using it in such a situation would be a death sentence.

 

[Broon]

OP, don't forget that there was a time before engineering when you had to tweak and fiddle with some ships to get the most out of them. The Vulture is/was one of those ships. I ran a Vulture for combat exclusively before the engineers made it easy to outfit one and had great successes in RES zones with it.

If memory serves there were two schools of thought to get around the power issue. You could either shut stuff off when weapons were deployed or just build a ship inside the power capabilities.

The build I ran looked something like this IIRC. https://eddp.co/u/UleBgAgS I disabled the cargo hatch and ran 4A Thrusters to conserve power while keeping 5A Shields and 2 Shield Boosters. Sensors and Life Support were also E rated for power savings. Sure the sensors had a bit shorter range but hey, this is combat and you can only shoot 3km without engineering, right? And Life Support is just a luxury. Who needs more than 5 min.

Another build you could use would be this one. https://eddp.co/u/xtbLzhGu Here you would need to disable your FSD before deploying your weapons but you would retain 5A Thrusters and get D rated Sensors and Life Support. Just remember that when you need to bug out you would have to retract your hardpoints and wait a tic for the FSD to power up before you could run. That was a trade off I wasn't willing to make.

So yes, it can be done successfully WITHOUT Engineers. Disclaimer: These are PVE builds and I make no claims for viability in a PVP situation.

Feel free to add Hull and Module Reinforcements in all of those empty slots as you see fit. And weapons can be changed to fit your needs as well. Go play around at https://coriolis.io/ and find a build that works for you.

 

[Sylow]

Hmm, switching from the Viper to the Vulture after such short testing? Interesting.
.
I sure agree that the Viper requiers good use of the thrusters to stay on target, but it does have sufficient thrusters to do that. Also, your feedback tells me that you fell into exactly the trap i already stated in the thread of last week: mass.
.
Dispose of the military grade composite. Switch life support and sensors to D-rated. This reduction in mass will make the ship more agile, which might help you. (For defense, consider to include the chaff launcher, though. On an agile ship it can make a huge difference for survivability. )
.
The next thing is the distribution of the weapons. Aren't the medium hardpoints the ones on the vipers belly? It explains the problems you experienced with the MCs. Switch the weapons position, put the MCs on the top hardpoints. This will give them a much better tracking angle, making it much easier for you to stay on target.
.
.
And on the whole "engineering required", i fully disagree. I mean, it sure helps, but a friend of mine just recently (black friday) got into the game. We didn't even put him into a Viper, but simply got him an Imperial Eagle. Even that ship, properly set up but not engineered at all, serves him well enough for the moment.
.
On the Vulture only working after being engineered, i dare to be a bit surprised. I mean, i've put my Vulture to storage long before Engineers were on the Horizon, but i did so because the ship bored me too much. Even before Engineers the Vulture was one of the strongest combat ships. Sure the two hardpoints and power limitations didn't allow too much of variation, but when set up properly, it already at that time was considered overpowered and basically too cheap for how good it is.
.
The same is still true now. While more expencive ships have eclipsed the Vulture a bit, it's still a very potent machine at a moderate pricetag. (Or in todays economy: almost for free. ) That all being said, one important pointer: while i generally advise to keep the FSD in power group 1, so you can make a quick escape when required, things look different on the Vulture. That thing is quite tanky for its size and you need the power elsewhere. So it might be reasonable to put the FSD to low power priority, so it gets switched off when weapons are deployed.
.
.
That all said, i also think that you dump the Viper too fast. You describe fighting four targets, then giving up. No matter which ship you fly, there's a learning courve. Even on the Vulture, overpowered as it is (compared to any other small ship) there's stuff to learn and issues to ovecome. Some practice will make a huge difference.
.

 

[Red Fox Four]

o7 CMDRs,

so I followed given advice, prepared Viper toward bounty hunting and went for nav beacon for some training. I have engaged total of 4 enemies. 3 I "defeated", one I ran away from.


- first I stripped out of his shields, then he went away from my shooting arc and while I was trying to get behind, system police finished him off. 40k cr bounty claimed. So far so good.
- second I managed to land few shield hits, target evaded me and got evaporated by other ships. Didn't even got any bounty claim notice.
- third was Master Adder. Thought I can do it. Adder is quite small tho that Master bothered me a bit. Engaged. Stripped out his shields and landed few MC shots. And the dance started. We were circling around each other for good 5 minutes, him being constantly on top or behind me. All PIPs into engines, constant boosting and all I managed was to see him passing through, landing a shot or two on my shields. After 5 minutes of such pointless flying I low waked out.
- one target I didn't even managed to get into range before it was gone.
- fourth enemy I hit few times, reduced shields and then landed few laser hits onto bare hull. Missclicked and instead of MC shots I cleared the target - heat of the battle. Shortly after he was dead and I was granted 60k bounty claim.

Rebuy was 104k so I called it a day and went to base to cash in. Turned out I had 3 claims for 110k total (someone killed that Adder? or game registered my 2nd enemy? Who knows). About 20 minutes gave me nav beacon hunting enough credits to cover my eventual rebuy if that would happen.

After landing I made situation summary. Maybe hasty conclusion, further training required and overall skill polishing but I found Viper mk. III lacking. My build was as follow:

Spoiler

Viper MkIII
M: 2F/G Multi-cannon
M: 2F/G Multi-cannon
S: 1G/G Burst Laser
S: 1G/G Burst Laser

U: 0C Kill Warrant Scanner

BH: 1A Military Grade Composite
PP: 3A Power Plant
TH: 3A Thrusters
FD: 2E Frame Shift Drive
LS: 2E Life Support
PD: 3A Power Distributor
SS: 3A Sensors
FT: 2C Fuel Tank (Capacity: 4)

3: 3A Shield Generator

11.57 / 12 MW (96%) deployed

Although I could strip my target's shields fairly satisfactory and attempt to finish it with MCs I was unable to stay on target. I was outmaneuvered easily, even PIP management didn't help much. My survivability wasn't in question, my agility was enough to stay away from being shoot at but not enough to shoot at them. So I jumped to conclusion Viper sucks and I need something better.

Everyone praises Vulture so I made quick build. And I'm disappointed since it seems without PP engineering I cannot secure viable build.

This is weaponless build, mostly A-rated with non combat essential modules being as low as possible (hatch is off). And it sits at 99% power already. (!).

Spoiler

Vulture
U: 0A Kill Warrant Scanner

BH: 1C Lightweight Alloy
PP: 4A Power Plant
TH: 5A Thrusters
FD: 2E Frame Shift Drive
LS: 3D Life Support
PD: 5A Power Distributor
SS: 4A Sensors
FT: 3C Fuel Tank (8t)

5: 5A Shield Generator

15.36 / 15.60 MW (98%) deployed

This is above build, just weapons added. And power coverage jumps to 113%.

Spoiler

Vulture
L: 3C/G Beam Laser
L: 3C/F Multi-cannon

U: 0A Kill Warrant Scanner

BH: 1C Lightweight Alloy
PP: 4A Power Plant
TH: 5A Thrusters
FD: 2E Frame Shift Drive
LS: 3D Life Support
PD: 5A Power Distributor
SS: 4A Sensors
FT: 3C Fuel Tank (8t)

5: 5A Shield Generator

17.60 / 15.60 MW (113%) deployed

To counter it I need engineering at at least G2 roll (mediocre one). And where is the place for anything else? Paranoia fueled shield boosters, chaff launchers... We go into god G4 roll or pretty nice G5 overcharged.

A word about setting priorities - tried that with Viper. With A-rated stuff I was power starving heavily. I set power priorities and then something essential was mission. Weapons, shields and PD on - life support offline and 7m till suffocation. Pushed life higher, crime scanner went off. Turned that higher, weapons went off... I had to install lower grade internals and modules to keep things running.

From what I see I need:
- weapons for obvious reasons
- shields to be safe
- PD to keep above recharge fast
- KWS for maxing profit
- life support to stay alive
- sensors to actually detect anything
- FSD to quickly escape when things go south.

There's not much left to turn off. I can only downgrade to meet power requirements but this will cut my performance. Am I that dumb that I cannot create combat worthy A-rated ship or there's something I'm not getting? Or should I farm a Billion to outfit my Anaconda and forget about any issues?

I'm confused, combat looks harder that it seems. And that's even before I take off to do actual combat.

Two things (besides Engineering upgrades) will help you get on the inside of the turn against NPCs.

1. Use TrackIR. Being able to see where the enemy ship is and which direction they are facing or moving allows you to counter their move to intercept their flight vector.
2. Simple trick, but using the Yaw while pitching to move the nose of your ship "diagonally" towards your enemy actually helps cut into his turn and get your guns on them. Using Yaw with most flight sticks is simply twisting the stick.

Another way to get them in front of your sights but will also make them get you in their sights (aka Jousting) is push your vertical thrusters the opposite way of your pitch. E.g. if you are pulling stick back towards yourself to pitch up (most natural maneuver in a furball) then push your downwards vertical thrusters for a second or two. This causes your ship to "skid out" and widen your turn radius which consequently increases distance between you and your opponent. This allows you to get them in your sights, but keep in mind that this maneuver allows them to get guns on you too.

Whenever I use the 3rd option I always set my pips to SYS3 and WEP3 to allow for going full alpha with guns (fire everything you got without draining WEP capacitor) while shields are also hardened. Once you pass your enemy you should set your ENG pips back up to have improved thrust on your turn thrusts to keep chasing.

Anyways... just a few tips I picked up along the way.

This is my non-engineered combat Viper Mk3 that I've been using successfully in the past (and still fly it from time to time)

https://eddp.co/u/5Go4zYhQ

(note, in my combat viper I stripped down the FSD and life support. Don't need those anyways since I just fly from station to the Combat Zone or the RES site and have no need to do FSD jumps)

Hopefully they'll come in handy for you.

Fly safe!

 

[CMDR Zadian Lichtfrost]

…
This is exactly why I feel the Viper is one of the first ships a player should learn to pilot.

Once you get good with the Viper, you have a leg up with almost everything else, because the Viper is not forgiving.
…

I agree with you that the Viper is a good ship to learn a lot about combat in ED for the reason you mentioned. It certainly reminds you every time that you really should use all those thrusters available.
The reason why I think it's not a good starter combat ship is because I think it could be a bit overwhelming for somebody just starting to fight against NPCs. There are just too many things to keep in mind at the same time. In my opinion Sidewinder or Eagle are nice starter combat ships. The player will get some success, learns the absolute basics without having to learn a lot at the same time.
After the player feels confident enough to kill low ranked Cobras and Vipers the player can switch to a Viper and learn the finer aspects of combat.

I guess it depends on the player what the best way to learn something is.

 

[StiTch]

Maybe in PvP. In PvE it doesn't really matter what you are doing... It should be used when you are getting outmaneuvered, I can't see how using it in such a situation would be a death sentence.

Because by disabling FA Off you remove the automated thruster management that controls your inertia. When you hit FA Off and boost, your turning does nothing to stop you traveling in a straight line, so yes you get the opponent in sights faster - but instead of following a curve around them, you are now usually a few hundred meters away from them, right in the open for an attack when they get you in sights a moment later.

In effect it forces a face tank that allows you to have the opponent in sights first. This is therefore actually a technique I deliberately use in a bigger ship against a smaller one, as maintaining the face tank is exactly what I want. Ergo, do not use this technique indiscriminately, which to be fair should be said for any technique.

Leaving FA On and following the opponent's blind spots can be just as effective; you aren't utilising FA Off effectively in a smaller ship until you manage your lateral/vertical thrusting properly. Once you can turn FA Off and vertically thrust to maintain the circle strafe on an NPC you start to realise how sanitary they can be in a fight; they need to do something to break the lock, such as...oh I don't know, the FA Off boost turn, which is perfect there

 

[babelfisch]

Because by disabling FA Off you remove the automated thruster management that controls your inertia. When you fit FA Off and boost, your turning does nothing to stop you traveling in a straight line, so yes you get the opponent in sights faster - but instead of following a curve around them, you are now usually a few hundred meters away from them, right in the open for an attack when they get you in sights a moment later.

In effect it forces a face tank that allows you to have the opponent in sights first. This is therefore actually a technique I deliberately use in a bigger ship against a smaller one, as maintaining the face tank is exactly what I want. Ergo, do not use this technique indiscriminately, which to be fair should be said for any technique.

Leaving FA On and following the opponent's blind spots can be just as effective, but you aren't utilising FA Off effectively in a smaller ship until you manage your lateral/vertical thrusting properly. Once you can turn FA Off and vertically thrust to maintain the circle strafe on an NPC you start to realise how sanitary they can be in a fight; they need to do something to break the lock, such as...oh I don't know, the FA Off boost turn, which is perfect there

Using lateral thrusters is mandatory.
Anyway, the situation was that someone gets outmaneuvered, ergo you can't "Leave FA On and following the opponent's blind spots" because your opponent runs circles around you.

 

[M00ka]

OP, don't give up on the Vulture yet. Yes it's weakness is it's power supply, every ship has it's bad points and for the Vulture it is power, you have to do a lot of tweaking to get everything working. One thing you can look at is the KWS, depending on which level you get can mean a lot in the power management side of things:

0A - Power Draw of 3.2mj, Range 4.0Km
0B - Power Draw of 1.6mj, Range 3.5Km
0C - Power Draw of 0.8mj, Range 3.0Km

As you can see, swapping out the 0A for an 0C greatly reduces your power consumption and since the Vulture is so nimble, having to get within the 3.0km range for the KWS isn't a problem (you will have to get that close for the weapons to be effective anyway unless you have modded them).