I made a spreadsheet in an attempt to somewhat qualitatively guestimate the price/performance ratios between ships. One of the starting points is "how many sIdewinders do I need to match the armour and firepower of ship X". I didn't do all ships, including skipping dedicated traders. I did this based on listed armour values and hardpoints (but not manoeuvrability), just a formula combining them. Obviously these are wild estimates but I think somewhat of a guideline. So I got the following results:
I then thought, what percentage of the cost of the target ship are you required to spend in purchasing sidewinders to have an even fight with the target ship. And this is what I got:
The ships up to the Cobra are quite well balanced. Sure, the Cobra is a bit more expensive than the Viper, but what I haven't taken into account is it's cargo space and general multi-purpose nature. Also these prices are for the base ships and when upgraded the Cobra and Viper aren't as far apart in price.
The problem is the huge price gap between the Cobra and Asp.
Lets compare the Cobra and the Asp:
Asp has 25% more firepower due to the two extra small hardpoints.
Asp has 75% more armour.
Asp has 75% more shields.
So we can say the Asp is say 60% bigger, roughly speaking.
Lets go back to Frontier Elite 3 (first encounters), with the Cobra MkII and the Asp. In Elite 3, capacity was the most important determinant of a ship. Greater capacity means bigger weapons, more shields, etc.
Asp capacity: 120T
Cobra MkIII: 80T
A 50% difference. Close to our current situation. Lets look at the Elite 3 costs:
Asp cost: 187,000
Cobra MkIII cost: 124,000
Elite 3 Asp cost 51% more for 50% increase in size.
But Elite Dangerous Asp costs 1654% more for a 66% increase in size.
This is out of whack. You're paying more than 17 times more for the Asp for performance increase that is less than double. Two Cobras have as much cargo space as an Asp, and would take it out easily.
But lets go to other other end of the scale. Using my formulas, I got the following number of ships required to kill an Anaconda:
As you can see, the Python is well balanced with the Anaconda. Two Pythons are slightly cheaper than an Anaconda, but not by much. Three Imperial Clippers would probably take a Anaconda for half it's price, but that's not a huge magnitude of difference, and some small discounts for smaller craft is okay, particularly considering you need to get rank with the Imperial Navy to get the ship anyway. The Asps are slightly underpriced, but not by a drastic margin. The big problem comes in with the Cobras. You can pick up ten for less than 5 mill and take out Anaconda's easily. Note here I'm using conservative figures, you probably don't even need anywhere near 10, four or five would probably do the job.
So basically:
1. Sidewinder+Eagle+Adder+Viper+Cobra are fairly well balanced with each other.
2. Imperial Clipper+Python+Anaconda are also well balanced. Asp is somewhat balanced with this bunch too.
The issue is the huge price gap between the Cobra and the Asp that I think mucks up the balance and frankly makes the larger ships hardly worth the extra expense, maintenance and insurance cost risks, unless you really want to min/max income and you find a great trade route.
I've discussed this before, but I've refined this. My proposal is that all ships should have a class. Here's a proposed list for these ships:
Note that doubling the cost of the ship increases it's class by 0.25. In fact I assigned these classes using the following list:
This is only a guideline, it's possible trading ships will be in a lower than expected class.
Currently there's a system in place where small and medium weapons only do 66% damage to hull against large ships. I propose to scrap that, and instead apply the following, to both hull and shield. First a weapons class table and different masses:
You would expect an Anaconda at 5000 times the cost of a sidewinder to have some pretty advanced systems, and in particular armour and shields that aren't stripped but by the most intense weapons. On the other hand a blowtorch is likely all that's needed to take down a sidewinder's shields and start melting it's armour. That's what happens with basic technology.
To reflect this:
"If a weapon's class is below the hit ship's class, for each one point it is below, half it's damage."
Basically weapon damage mult = 0.5 ^ min(Target ship class - weapon class). This accounts for fractions also.
You may have noticed weapons increase in price 4 times each hardpoint increase. Their damage only doubles though. Under my proposed system, damage doubles again, if you're below the class of the target. This is still only 4 times increase, which is the same as the price increase between the weapon classes anyway. I've also nerfed the large weapons slightly by making them heavier, but a huge plasma accelerator really should be at least 64 tons.
What this means as a Python's large hardpoint weapons won't do any more damage than they do currently. It's not like small ships will instantly explode when hit by a large beam. But against large expensive ships, small weapons in particular will be very ineffective, doing only 1/7th damage instead of the current 2/3rds amount. Basically small weapons are only annoyances for large expensive ships because their systems counter them so effectively. Get enough Eagles together and you can take down a Python, but really Eagles will then be used for what I think they should be, harassing small trading vessels. Want to take down a Python? Get a few friends in Vipers or even better The Hunter when it's released with it's two large hardpoints. The Asp is still an expensive ship for it's combat capabilities, but being class 3, at least it's got a bit of extra defence from smaller ships.
All this should be balanced by penalising large ships attempting to interdict. It should be really hard to interdict using say an Anaconda. We don't want people to be able to go around in their Python splattering people for fun. But if you've earned it, and paid 3000 more than a sole pilot in an Eagle or 1000 more than a Viper pilot (including potential insurance bill) you shouldn't really be annoyed by these things unless they're in packs. Basically Eagles shouldn't be able to take down Condas, but they should fine it easy to avoid them also.
Some people complain that this is taking the skill out of the game. That a skilful solo pilot should be win any fight even with poor equipment. I disagree. It's Elite Dangerous, it's an unforgiving world, and sometimes, you should just have to be careful, not just think you can fight your way though everything, no matter how long you've played the game.
It also I think makes for a better narrative. You start your life in a simple sidewinder, afraid of everyone and constantly avoiding interdictions whilst delivering packages to make a few dollars, eventually you work you way up, and when you get a Viper, you can start taking on some of the smaller craft comfortable. But still, when you see a Python or Anaconda it's just time to run. Eventually you can afford your own Imperial Courier or Python, and then you can start hunting those big ships yourself.
Instead, now it's save up a few hundred thousand credits over a few days, get a Viper with some shield cells and you can kill anything the AI throws at you with a little practice.
Lets go back to the old Elite style that I remember, where when you saw an Imperial Explorer with it's plasma accelerator beaming down on you and all you had was a 1MW beam laser, you didn't think about being a hero, you just put the thrusters at maximum and tried to get away ASAP.
I think what I'm proposing roughly achieves that, without seriously unbalancing things. Combat between similar ships is untouched, but like the old elite games, you need to work your way up a bit before you can take on the world.
| Target ship | Sidewinders required |
|---|---|
| Eagle | 1.5 |
| Adder | 2.5 |
| Viper | 3.5 |
| Cobra | 4 |
| Asp | 6.5 |
| Imperial Clipper | 11 |
| Python | 15 |
| Anaconda | 23 |
I then thought, what percentage of the cost of the target ship are you required to spend in purchasing sidewinders to have an even fight with the target ship. And this is what I got:
| Target ship | Cost to purchase sidewinders compared to cost of target ship |
|---|---|
| Eagle | 100% |
| Adder | 90% |
| Viper | 80% |
| Cobra | 33% |
| Asp | 3% |
| Imperial Clipper | 1.5% |
| Python | 0.8% |
| Anaconda | 0.5% |
The ships up to the Cobra are quite well balanced. Sure, the Cobra is a bit more expensive than the Viper, but what I haven't taken into account is it's cargo space and general multi-purpose nature. Also these prices are for the base ships and when upgraded the Cobra and Viper aren't as far apart in price.
The problem is the huge price gap between the Cobra and Asp.
Lets compare the Cobra and the Asp:
Asp has 25% more firepower due to the two extra small hardpoints.
Asp has 75% more armour.
Asp has 75% more shields.
So we can say the Asp is say 60% bigger, roughly speaking.
Lets go back to Frontier Elite 3 (first encounters), with the Cobra MkII and the Asp. In Elite 3, capacity was the most important determinant of a ship. Greater capacity means bigger weapons, more shields, etc.
Asp capacity: 120T
Cobra MkIII: 80T
A 50% difference. Close to our current situation. Lets look at the Elite 3 costs:
Asp cost: 187,000
Cobra MkIII cost: 124,000
Elite 3 Asp cost 51% more for 50% increase in size.
But Elite Dangerous Asp costs 1654% more for a 66% increase in size.
This is out of whack. You're paying more than 17 times more for the Asp for performance increase that is less than double. Two Cobras have as much cargo space as an Asp, and would take it out easily.
But lets go to other other end of the scale. Using my formulas, I got the following number of ships required to kill an Anaconda:
| Ship to kill Anaconda | Number Required |
|---|---|
| Sidewinder | 23 |
| Eagle | 19 |
| Adder | 13 |
| Viper | 10 |
| Cobra | 9 |
| Asp | 5.5 |
| Imperial Clipper | 3 |
| Python | 2 |
As you can see, the Python is well balanced with the Anaconda. Two Pythons are slightly cheaper than an Anaconda, but not by much. Three Imperial Clippers would probably take a Anaconda for half it's price, but that's not a huge magnitude of difference, and some small discounts for smaller craft is okay, particularly considering you need to get rank with the Imperial Navy to get the ship anyway. The Asps are slightly underpriced, but not by a drastic margin. The big problem comes in with the Cobras. You can pick up ten for less than 5 mill and take out Anaconda's easily. Note here I'm using conservative figures, you probably don't even need anywhere near 10, four or five would probably do the job.
So basically:
1. Sidewinder+Eagle+Adder+Viper+Cobra are fairly well balanced with each other.
2. Imperial Clipper+Python+Anaconda are also well balanced. Asp is somewhat balanced with this bunch too.
The issue is the huge price gap between the Cobra and the Asp that I think mucks up the balance and frankly makes the larger ships hardly worth the extra expense, maintenance and insurance cost risks, unless you really want to min/max income and you find a great trade route.
I've discussed this before, but I've refined this. My proposal is that all ships should have a class. Here's a proposed list for these ships:
| Ship | Class |
|---|---|
| Sidewinder | 1 |
| Eagle | 1 |
| Hauler | 1 |
| Adder | 1.25 |
| Viper | 1.5 |
| Cobra | 1.75 |
| Lakon Type 6 | 2 |
| Asp | 3 |
| Lakon Type 7 | 3.25 |
| Imperial Clipper | 3.25 |
| Federal Dropship | 3.5 |
| Python | 3.75 |
| Lakon Type 9 | 3.75 |
| Anaconda | 4 |
Note that doubling the cost of the ship increases it's class by 0.25. In fact I assigned these classes using the following list:
| Class | Cost |
|---|---|
| 1 | 32000 |
| 1.25 | 64000 |
| 1.5 | 128000 |
| 1.75 | 256000 |
| 2 | 512000 |
| 2.25 | 1024000 |
| 2.5 | 2048000 |
| 2.75 | 4096000 |
| 3 | 8192000 |
| 3.25 | 16384000 |
| 3.5 | 32768000 |
| 3.75 | 65536000 |
| 4 | 131072000 |
This is only a guideline, it's possible trading ships will be in a lower than expected class.
Currently there's a system in place where small and medium weapons only do 66% damage to hull against large ships. I propose to scrap that, and instead apply the following, to both hull and shield. First a weapons class table and different masses:
| Hardpoint size | Class | Current mass | Proposed mass |
|---|---|---|---|
| Small | 1 | 2 | 1 |
| Medium | 2 | 4 | 4 |
| Large | 3 | 8 | 16 |
| Huge | 4 | 16 | 64 |
You would expect an Anaconda at 5000 times the cost of a sidewinder to have some pretty advanced systems, and in particular armour and shields that aren't stripped but by the most intense weapons. On the other hand a blowtorch is likely all that's needed to take down a sidewinder's shields and start melting it's armour. That's what happens with basic technology.
To reflect this:
"If a weapon's class is below the hit ship's class, for each one point it is below, half it's damage."
Basically weapon damage mult = 0.5 ^ min(Target ship class - weapon class). This accounts for fractions also.
You may have noticed weapons increase in price 4 times each hardpoint increase. Their damage only doubles though. Under my proposed system, damage doubles again, if you're below the class of the target. This is still only 4 times increase, which is the same as the price increase between the weapon classes anyway. I've also nerfed the large weapons slightly by making them heavier, but a huge plasma accelerator really should be at least 64 tons.
What this means as a Python's large hardpoint weapons won't do any more damage than they do currently. It's not like small ships will instantly explode when hit by a large beam. But against large expensive ships, small weapons in particular will be very ineffective, doing only 1/7th damage instead of the current 2/3rds amount. Basically small weapons are only annoyances for large expensive ships because their systems counter them so effectively. Get enough Eagles together and you can take down a Python, but really Eagles will then be used for what I think they should be, harassing small trading vessels. Want to take down a Python? Get a few friends in Vipers or even better The Hunter when it's released with it's two large hardpoints. The Asp is still an expensive ship for it's combat capabilities, but being class 3, at least it's got a bit of extra defence from smaller ships.
All this should be balanced by penalising large ships attempting to interdict. It should be really hard to interdict using say an Anaconda. We don't want people to be able to go around in their Python splattering people for fun. But if you've earned it, and paid 3000 more than a sole pilot in an Eagle or 1000 more than a Viper pilot (including potential insurance bill) you shouldn't really be annoyed by these things unless they're in packs. Basically Eagles shouldn't be able to take down Condas, but they should fine it easy to avoid them also.
Some people complain that this is taking the skill out of the game. That a skilful solo pilot should be win any fight even with poor equipment. I disagree. It's Elite Dangerous, it's an unforgiving world, and sometimes, you should just have to be careful, not just think you can fight your way though everything, no matter how long you've played the game.
It also I think makes for a better narrative. You start your life in a simple sidewinder, afraid of everyone and constantly avoiding interdictions whilst delivering packages to make a few dollars, eventually you work you way up, and when you get a Viper, you can start taking on some of the smaller craft comfortable. But still, when you see a Python or Anaconda it's just time to run. Eventually you can afford your own Imperial Courier or Python, and then you can start hunting those big ships yourself.
Instead, now it's save up a few hundred thousand credits over a few days, get a Viper with some shield cells and you can kill anything the AI throws at you with a little practice.
Lets go back to the old Elite style that I remember, where when you saw an Imperial Explorer with it's plasma accelerator beaming down on you and all you had was a 1MW beam laser, you didn't think about being a hero, you just put the thrusters at maximum and tried to get away ASAP.
I think what I'm proposing roughly achieves that, without seriously unbalancing things. Combat between similar ships is untouched, but like the old elite games, you need to work your way up a bit before you can take on the world.
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