Big vs. Small

[FuzzySpider]

Does it work? Yes, it works. That's not the issue. The issue is that having a scoop a full class size lower than your FSD results in roughly triple the time spent scooping fuel after a jump, especially a maximum range jump.

It takes approximately 90 seconds to fill a Diamondback Scouts tank from empty to full with a 3A scoop. On half a tank that's 45 seconds. I don't see an issue, but that's just me.

The Vulture would still do the FdL's job better than the FdL does for cheaper.

You appear to be implying the Vulture is better for bounty hunting and assassinations than a FDL. You're entitled to your opinion of course, but I think a mil-specced FDL running 5 shield boosters with 4 gimballed pulse lasers and a big cannon on the huge hardpoint is more impressive and does the job better than any Vulture build I can conceive of, because the FDL has the capacity for more shielding, higher speed, and better armaments. That's just my opinion.

If you had bothered to read the rest of that particular paragraph I did suggested a way to balance out SCBs so that combat wasn't quite as reliant upon them.

I did bother to read the paragraph, but I'd rather talk about what is actually in the game and how the things actually in the game work, not get sidetracked talking about how some hypothetical module that doesn't exist might or might not make things different. I mean anyone could just make up an imaginary module and do that right?

 

[Volthorne]

It takes approximately 90 seconds to fill a Diamondback Scouts tank from empty to full with a 3A scoop. On half a tank that's 45 seconds. I don't see an issue, but that's just me.

It's a problem when even the FdL, Vulture, and Viper (all ships notorious for their short jump ranges) can explore faster and better than a ship purpose-built for the task.

You appear to be implying the Vulture is better for bounty hunting and assassinations than a FDL. You're entitled to your opinion of course, but I think a mil-specced FDL running 5 shield boosters with 4 gimballed pulse lasers and a big cannon on the huge hardpoint is more impressive and does the job better than any Vulture build I can conceive of, because the FDL has the capacity for more shielding, higher speed, and better armaments. That's just my opinion.

You cannot put 5 shield boosters on an FdL. It runs out of power long before that. You're lucky if you can fit 4 0B boosters on it. Source: I own one and played around with builds in EDShipyard for weeks before I bought one. The shielding difference isn't quite as severe as you make it out to be: I was able to cram all 4 of the utility mounts full of 0A boosters on a Vulture (in EDShipyard), and with the FdL running 4 0B boosters, it has a scant 79Mj lead for shield strength. Combine that with the Vulture being 50% more agile than the FdL and it gets really easy to see why more players prefer the Vulture over the FdL for bounty hunting.

As for the weapons, a pair of C3 pulse lasers pack a substantially larger punch than a C4 cannon. You have to put a C4 PA on the FdL before it starts dealing more effective damage than the Vulture (I say effective damage because while the C4 cannon and 4xC2 pulse lasers do have a higher combined DPS, you almost never get to fire both at the same time). On top of this, cannons take massive damage penalties when hitting shields, which results in most players just running a C3 laser of some sort in their C4 slot.

If you don't believe me, ask anyone on the forums. Unless they're an absolutely die-hard FdL fanboi, they'll tell you that the Vulture does the FdL's job better and for cheaper (even some of the FdL fanbois will also tell you that, because they know what proper balance looks like and this isn't it).

I did bother to read the paragraph, but I'd rather talk about what is actually in the game and how the things actually in the game work, not get sidetracked talking about how some hypothetical module that doesn't exist might or might not make things different. I mean anyone could just make up an imaginary module and do that right?

Oh, you did read it? Did you actually understand everything I wrote? If so, then Excellent! If not, mayhaps go back and give it another read, because I am quite sure that I addressed basically everything in your previous response in my first one. Also next time could you perhaps reply with something relevant? We know how much you love tangents, but let's try to get back on track, shall we?

 

[Poseidal]

It's a problem when even the FdL, Vulture, and Viper (all ships notorious for their short jump ranges) can explore faster and better than a ship purpose-built for the task.

Can they really? Even with faster scoop times, doubt they will make up time lost by having to take more jumps, especially as the lower range also limits the routes you can take (and can end up a lot less direct).

 

[Bokugo]

Imo the Fer De LANCE should play like a lance and not a dagger.. It's a jouster by nature.

 

[Stigbob]

Can they really? Even with faster scoop times, doubt they will make up time lost by having to take more jumps, especially as the lower range also limits the routes you can take (and can end up a lot less direct).

Yep this, even with my supposedly underpowered B3 fuel scoop on my scout I can skim a bit of fuel without slowing down every jump and travel pretty much indefinitely. If I turn the scoop off I can cover 120 ly's (easily) before needing to turn it on again, it's not limited by jump range, scoop size or tank size at all.

 

[Cumquat of Pain]

The advantage to the big ships is just that, they are big. Something like the Python has a huge power plant, a wide range of weapons and module options. Mine is currently set up as a cargo carrier (of which is does no better than a much cheaper Type 7, but it can at least defend itself), but there are pirate versions, mining, combat, etc.

With the smaller ships, they are a much more confined in configuration. The Viper is cool, but runs into power problems quickly.

Here's the trick though, each ship can be specialized to what you want. Personally, I recently sold off my Asp, Type 7 and Vulture to fund my Python. I kept my DiamondBack Scout. I also picked up a Diamondback Explorer, but I'm still not 100% happy with that. For PowerPlay each has a role. The Scout has great jump range, enough cargo capacity to do garrison missions, and excellent combat characteristics. It's basically a long range Viper (with weaker shields). However, it does not have enough space to do the PowerPlay "piracy" missions and have a hatch breaker, interdictor, cargo scanner, and cargo bay all equipped. Right now that's the DB Explorer.

So really that's what people are paying for, is the flexibility. Defensively equipped, the Python is no better a cargo ship than the Type 6 or Type 7, yet costs at least 5 times more. But it's a multi-role ship that grows with you. And if you look at the player that own these ships, spending 2.5mil for a great equipped Viper nearly becomes "disposable" for certain roles.

 

[Arsen Cross]

I personally feel that the ships are very well balanced. There is a problem however with all ships that is most apparent with large ships such as the Python and Anaconda. There's no protection imparted to your subsystesm based on if they are internal or external. Unfortunately this is most apparent with the large ships where PP sniping is the default go-to for anyone experienced with PVP.

As it stands now, the majority of the ships in the game can (and do) flee from my Python when I interdict them in Open. Very few stick around to duke it out, which is how it should be. When they have numbers though it's a different story, which again is how it should be. Once they fix the problem with internal subsystems having no protection from armor/hull reinforcement (FOR ALL SHIPS) then I feel that the combat model will be much much better and much more rewarding across the board.

 

[Arsen Cross]

The advantage to the big ships is just that, they are big. Something like the Python has a huge power plant, a wide range of weapons and module options. Mine is currently set up as a cargo carrier (of which is does no better than a much cheaper Type 7, but it can at least defend itself), but there are pirate versions, mining, combat, etc.

With the smaller ships, they are a much more confined in configuration. The Viper is cool, but runs into power problems quickly.

Here's the trick though, each ship can be specialized to what you want. Personally, I recently sold off my Asp, Type 7 and Vulture to fund my Python. I kept my DiamondBack Scout. I also picked up a Diamondback Explorer, but I'm still not 100% happy with that. For PowerPlay each has a role. The Scout has great jump range, enough cargo capacity to do garrison missions, and excellent combat characteristics. It's basically a long range Viper (with weaker shields). However, it does not have enough space to do the PowerPlay "piracy" missions and have a hatch breaker, interdictor, cargo scanner, and cargo bay all equipped. Right now that's the DB Explorer.

So really that's what people are paying for, is the flexibility. Defensively equipped, the Python is no better a cargo ship than the Type 6 or Type 7, yet costs at least 5 times more. But it's a multi-role ship that grows with you. And if you look at the player that own these ships, spending 2.5mil for a great equipped Viper nearly becomes "disposable" for certain roles.

As a Python pilot you pretty much hit the nail on the head. For my the Python's price point and insane rebuy (12.5m for me with the ship and ALL modules having 15% or greater discounts on purchase). My Python is my only ship. I like to travel around freely and not worry about "Do I have the ability to do X, Y or Z in this area?". I equip it for what I want to be able to do, and play. I really don't like ferrying around ships so that type of game play just isn't for me. Because of that I get to suffer the consequences such as: Most pilots flee from me in combat, most fights I get involve getting ganged up on and having to flee, wings of "disposable" ships love to target me. But I also get some benefits. I do whatever I want, and most of the time I can do so freely because I'm in a big scary Python! Even when I was trade fit back in the day.

 

[FuzzySpider]

You cannot put 5 shield boosters on an FdL.

Yes, you can. A-Spec everything except sensors and life support. 4 class A shield boosters, one class C, and you've got quite some defense there. WAY more than a vulture, along with higher speed and better weapons. The vulture only has the edge in speed and agility.

And that's with 4 pulses. You can get even more shields if you use (F) multicannons.

Also next time could you perhaps reply with something relevant? We know how much you love tangents, but let's try to get back on track, shall we?

You are an "I", not a "we". I did reply with something relevant, but your penchant for throwing tantrums when someone disagrees with you disinclines me to reply to you at all from this moment forth.

Can they really? Even with faster scoop times, doubt they will make up time lost by having to take more jumps, especially as the lower range also limits the routes you can take (and can end up a lot less direct).

No they can't. A scout can scoop perfectly adequately. And among other things the FDL would make an absolutely terrible explorer. I know this ship very well now. For a start it overheats very easily, so scooping is risky. For another it has extremely limited jump range and a small fuel tank, all you need to do is to inadvertantly jump into a cluster of brown dwarfs and you're on the phone to fuel rats. You could pack a few spare tanks now, but you'd be dropping your jump range even further.

 

[Volthorne]

Can they really? Even with faster scoop times, doubt they will make up time lost by having to take more jumps, especially as the lower range also limits the routes you can take (and can end up a lot less direct).

I exaggerated a little bit to get a point across. The Viper and Vulture definitely can't because their jump-range is total pants, but the FdL can travel faster than the DBS. In one of the threads where people were trying to get FD to give the DBS decent internals for an explorer (before it became the DBS), the math was done and the FdL can go 1000ly in (IIRC) ~80% of the time it would take the DBS to go the same distance.

Yep this, even with my supposedly underpowered B3 fuel scoop on my scout I can skim a bit of fuel without slowing down every jump and travel pretty much indefinitely. If I turn the scoop off I can cover 120 ly's (easily) before needing to turn it on again, it's not limited by jump range, scoop size or tank size at all.

And then when you do turn it on you spend way longer than you should flying circles around that star. The DBE and DBS are the only two ships to have this "trait". Just some food for thought.

Yes, you can. A-Spec everything except sensors and life support. 4 class A shield boosters, one class C, and you've got quite some defense there. WAY more than a vulture, along with higher speed and better weapons. The vulture only has the edge in speed and agility.

And that's with 4 pulses. You can get even more shields if you use mutlicannons.

...Are you trying to tell me that you think 4 C2 pulses counts as "better weapons" than a pair of C3 anything? I'm not sure I can take you seriously anymore. That's not an FdL, that's a training dummy. A punching bag. The demonstration guy that martial arts instructors beat up on all the time.

You are an "I", not a "we". I did reply with something relevant, but your penchant for throwing tantrums when someone disagrees with you disinclines me to reply to you at all from this moment forth.

Of course, of course. Run along now, the adults are talking. Make sure to put the thesaurus back on the shelf where you found it on your way out please, thank you. Or perhaps you'd like to inform me as to how conjecture and personal grievances constructively build on a conversation?

No they can't. A scout can scoop perfectly adequately. And among other things the FDL would make an absolutely terrible explorer. I know this ship very well now. For a start it overheats very easily, so scooping is risky. For another it has extremely limited jump range and a small fuel tank, all you need to do is to inadvertantly jump into a cluster of brown dwarfs and you're on the phone to fuel rats. You could pack a few spare tanks now, but you'd be dropping your jump range even further.

For someone who knows the FdL "very well" you certainly don't seem to be making very many statements that support such a viewpoint. The FdL certainly isn't a great explorer, mostly due to the fact that you have to pick between an extra fuel tank and an AFMU, but it can definitely do an okay job. A very, very expensive and less than ideal explorer, but it can do it (I've got a loadout open in EDS right now with a max range of slightly more than 19ly, among other things).

 

[emacinnes]

In many threads I noticed that arguments took place between owners of big ships (Python, Anaconda) and owners of small ships (Viper, Vulture).

For instance, small ship pilots complained about the big ships to be too powerful, while the big ship pilots said all was well, since big ships cost a lot more. On the other hand, big ship pilots complain now about the repair cost being too high, while small ship owners say it's okay.

This might boil down to two different play styles. Dare I say, small ship owners rather enjoy going into open play and fight with other players, while big ship owners like to play in solo mode and try to build up the ultimate space ship and rule the universe? For me, as a Python pilot and an 80ies Elite veteran, that's definitely the aim. :>

The problem is, that FD tries to combine both play styles with the same rules. And I'm afraid this will never work. A Python or an Anaconda player spends a huge amount of money to have a better ship. If this ship would be as good as the money he/her spent, it would be indestructible for a small ship. Example: Maxed out Anaconda costs 500,000,000, a pimped up Viper 250,000, but the Anaconda isn't better than a Viper by the factor of 2000. I sometimes get the feeling, it's only better by a small percentage. In fact, to buy more expensive modules (some cost millions of credits!) gives the player only the illusion of having really better equipment. If it wasn't like this, new players wouldn't stand a chance against those who ground for money for a long time.

It's unfair one way and the other. What can be done? Different rules for solo and open play?

That doesn't really ring true in the game though. A class 3 laser is clearly and definitively superior to a class 2. Thrusters and ship loadouts require careful consideration and not just go for "A" class for every option, and it also depends on the role you want to play in the game. Explorers kit most stuff with class D. Traders don't kit out their ships at all, you could find a bare-bones anaconda trader, for example.

I think you may be looking at the problem too mathematically. A ferrari is 50 times the price of a honda civic, but it's only a factor of 4 times as good in terms of 0..60 performance. There are improvements in-game for upgrades, but there's also a tendency to normalise if a player upgrades without thinking, as everything adds weight, reduces power and impacts performance, so if you want "big but maneuverable", not all A class options are the best idea, and certainly not hull reinforcements or armour.

Plus, I kit the ship from the point of view of dealing damage quickly, rather than max defense. No need for max defense if the target's dead, and that means being light and staying on target for longer, with more power to weapons, and less dead weight, more maneuverability.

 

[DaveB]

...Are you trying to tell me that you think 4 C2 pulses counts as "better weapons" than a pair of C3 anything? I'm not sure I can take you seriously anymore. That's not an FdL, that's a training dummy. A punching bag. The demonstration guy that martial arts instructors beat up on all the time.

Actually, in terms of raw DPS he's right. At least where lasers are concerned. A pair of C2 puts out about 1.5x the DPS of a single C3 of the same type and the same relationship applies to a pair of C1 vs a single C2. There's a link to a comparative weapons table somewhere on this forum. However, with firing more weapons the ship with smaller hardpoints will have less continuous-fire time before they deplete their capacitor and more heat issues to deal with. Go up against a FdL fitted the way he describes with your Vulture and I think you'd be unpleasantly surprised how much sizzle he's throwing. Of course it will come down to piloting skills and marksmanship how much of that sizzle you get to actually feel....

 

[Poseidal]

Lasers almost all do the same damager per energy of the same type, regardless of class. An array of class 1 pulse lasers do the same damage per energy against shields as a class 3 pulse laser, and do more damage for the same mass (but less against hull).

 

[Volthorne]

Actually, in terms of raw DPS he's right. At least where lasers are concerned. A pair of C2 puts out about 1.5x the DPS of a single C3 of the same type and the same relationship applies to a pair of C1 vs a single C2. There's a link to a comparative weapons table somewhere on this forum. However, with firing more weapons the ship with smaller hardpoints will have less continuous-fire time before they deplete their capacitor and more heat issues to deal with. Go up against a FdL fitted the way he describes with your Vulture and I think you'd be unpleasantly surprised how much sizzle he's throwing. Of course it will come down to piloting skills and marksmanship how much of that sizzle you get to actually feel....

How does the weapons chart stack up to the data values on coriolis.io? I'm curious now because I defaulted to those when my search-fu wasn't strong enough to find the post you're talking about (I skimmed over it to see how different weapon types stacked up against each other but didn't peruse it in detail), and the data supplied by coriolis lists C3 fixed pulse at 7Mj per shot and 22Mj DPS and C3 gimballed at 6Mj per shot and 18Mj DPS, while C2 fixed pulse get 4Mj per shot and 14Mj DPS with C2 gimballed at 3Mj per shot and 12Mj DPS. This would put 2xC2 gimballed at a 30% DPS increase over 1xC3 gimballed, and 2xC2 fixed at a slightly lower 27% increased DPS, but a 14% increase in damage per shot.

What this means is that the difference is pretty much negligible in a face-tank shootout, but that FdL build would win by a small margin (it's going to be severely crippled by the end of the face-tanking). Unfortunately for the FdL, Elite is in space, not old-school naval-style "pull up beside each other and unload broadsides until one of us sinks". The Vulture's 50% maneuverability bonus over the FdL means that the FdL is going to have a significant amount of trouble bringing even gimballed weapons to bear, especially if the Vulture takes advantage of nothing (probably) being mounted to the underside. More shields and potential damage means nothing if you can't shoot back.

 

[Malkevin]

I exaggerated a little bit to get a point across. The Viper and Vulture definitely can't because their jump-range is total pants, but the FdL can travel faster than the DBS. In one of the threads where people were trying to get FD to give the DBS decent internals for an explorer (before it became the DBS), the math was done and the FdL can go 1000ly in (IIRC) ~80% of the time it would take the DBS to go the same distance.

Interesting...

And how does the DBS compare to the cobra?
Being that its next ship up and is a dedicated ship compared to the multipurpose cobra.

 

[Volthorne]

Interesting...

And how does the DBS compare to the cobra?
Being that its next ship up and is a dedicated ship compared to the multipurpose cobra.

Well, you can judge that for yourself (although I think the winner is pretty clear): Cobra vs. DBS