Black hole query??

TomS · Feb 25, 2017

Hey all,

I've been flying around the galaxy for some (considerable amount of) time and I have a genuine question about black holes in E

...

Why do some look all dusky and hazy (almost like galactic sandstorms) - when others look like tiny black pin-pricks with funny surrounding ocular effects?

Is it just down to the galactic background or is there some other explanation for these differences?

Phazon Xenomorph · Feb 25, 2017

Black holes should all be the same. They have a lensing distortion effect especially if you put the galactic plane behind it. Other than the nebula ones there's really no difference?

Vandaahl · Feb 25, 2017

Phazon Xenomorph said:
Black holes should all be the same. They have a lensing distortion effect especially if you put the galactic plane behind it. Other than the nebula ones there's really no difference?

This^

Black holes don't look like anything. You look through them to something that gets warped.

NascentChemist · Feb 25, 2017

They are not fully developed yet. You can only experience a tiny bit of heat and see some gravity lensing. In reality, they would have an event horizon, incredible radiation, ejection cones, quantum firewall, and other things that would kill you.

Maybe when they overhaul exploration we'll get semi-realistic black holes. The problem is that they are so gosh darn hazardous that they make difficult gameplay. They're the white dwarf/neutron star on steroids with a huge gravity well thrown in.

Edit: While we can't see anything past the event horizon, many black holes have accretion disks of gas that we could see. These would produce heat, radiation, etc that players could experience.

TomS · Feb 25, 2017

NascentChemist said:
They are not fully developed yet. You can only experience a tiny bit of heat and see some gravity lensing. In reality, they would have an event horizon, incredible radiation, ejection cones, quantum firewall, and other things that would kill you.

Maybe when they overhaul exploration we'll get semi-realistic black holes. The problem is that they are so gosh darn hazardous that they make difficult gameplay. They're the white dwarf/neutron star on steroids with a huge gravity well thrown in.

Edit: While we can't see anything past the event horizon, many black holes have accretion disks of gas that we could see. These would produce heat, radiation, etc that players could experience.

I don't know what most of these words mean

NascentChemist · Feb 25, 2017

Gravity lensing describes how massive objects can make light curve around them.

The event horizon is the "point of no return" with a black hole: not even light can escape. Some objects sucking in stellar gases shoot some of it out at the poles in ejection cones:

Quantum firewall is freaky. Two paired subatomic particles pop into existence from empty space, one matter and the other antimatter. Normally, they collide and go back to nothing. But if they appear along a black hole, one of the particles may be pulled away leaving the other behind. This causes bad things to happen, like the event horizon constantly emitting weird radiation.

Leadfoot · Feb 25, 2017

TomS said:
I don't know what most of these words mean

NascentChemist explained several items, but one thing not mentioned was an accretion disk. It's best described as that swirling pile of gas and dust that is pulled around and eventually into the event horizon (from which there is no escape). If you fill the bathtub full of water and pull the plug, you'll see that whirlpool over the drain; it's similar to that. Something like this:
http://blogs.futura-sciences.com/e-luminet/wp-content/uploads/sites/11/2015/02/cygx1-605x372.jpg

Also on the lensing effect, here's a good example:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kIp96hvHRKM
Advance to 3:55 and 6:30 to see it. 7:58 mark shows the same effect with a neutron star (don't forget to enjoy her entire video).

space voyager · Feb 25, 2017

IMO there should have been a lot more of them. A lot of the stars "died" already and but there are so few black holes...

WR3ND · Feb 25, 2017

space voyager said:
IMO there should have been a lot more of them. A lot of the stars "died" already and but there are so few black holes...

Most degenerate stars don't become black holes.

Sapyx · Feb 25, 2017

WR3ND said:
Most degenerate stars don't become black holes.

No, the smaller ones become white dwarfs. And there should definitely be more of those around the place. Outside of the hand-crafted white dwarf stars in the Bubble, there are precious few of them anywhere near Sol, whereas one would assume that the space around Sol is a more or less random representative sample of galactic space and we would therefore expect to see a similar density of procedurally-generated white dwarfs out there in the main body of the galactic disc.

WR3ND · Feb 25, 2017

I tend to mostly just plot for scoopable stars these days. Couldn't say for sure what proportion of white dwarfs we should have and how far it is off in the game, assuming it is. I'd say the neutron star fields are likely a bit more of an inconstancy though. The small stars such as red dwarfs, which we should and do have a number of as I seem to recall, can have much longer lives, if I'm not mistaken.

In regard to the OP, I think the lensing effect in the game is based on the mass of the black hole as well, so this might also be why some of them look a little different.

MrFuddyDuddy · Feb 25, 2017

I hope they further update stellar bodies such as blackholes, would love to come across a blackhole functioning much like a Neutron Star or White Dwarf with a funnel of dust shooting out of the thing, or dust being sucked into it. Players should also theoretically be capable of flying into the event horizon without risk of destruction as long as they are traveling faster than light. Imagine having to collect data on a blackhole by quite literally flying through/into it.

WR3ND · Feb 25, 2017

There are likely other issues crossing the event horizon due to space-time dilation. Seeing eternity unfold before you might get a little hot. I'd recommend avoiding the issue altogether. I don't think this game intends to be that "sci-fi."

Vevvev · Feb 25, 2017

A good depiction of what a black hole would really look like would be in Space Engine. Although SE does not have the jets coming out of the poles but it has the lensing and accretion disk.

[video=youtube;kU_7GsxNogU]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kU_7GsxNogU[/video]

gravedodger · Feb 25, 2017

I'd be more than happy if ED Black Holes looked like this ...

[video=youtube;YdSz12Glhlw]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YdSz12Glhlw[/video]

Chazzie · Feb 25, 2017

Black holes are without a doubt my favourite stellar object, they are not really finished in elite yet - in reality they would be formidable death objects, which you would only approach if you wanted to die. The core would truly be a sight to see.

I can't wait for FD to throw a bone to the explorers as far as Black holes are concerned, it would be an exciting and terrifying experience - both at the same time.

There is more than likely a lot of hard work involved in making them realistic (accretion discs and the like) and I'm unsure as to how you would be able to get anywhere near one in the game - I'm aware the FSD shields you from a lot of gravity distortion but recent (excellent) update to Neutron stars made the FSD show 'strain' - so how will it handle a Black hole?

yodajedifishmaster · Feb 25, 2017

thing is when i jump to a class H i can see the distance counting down from 4.6mm while scanning. when i jump to a neutron star i jump and im still 0.71 Ls away while scanning. and no heat from either. white dwarf i am 4 Ls or so away and lot of heat. surely black holes you should arrive firther away than white dwarf and same for neutron stars if they have such massive gravity wells? or do they really have very tiny but powerful gravity wells (as in singularity lol)

i have seen a black hole 5 solar masses which appeared as a black dot with lensing effect around it. i wish i had screenshot it now, i just assumed some you couldnt see the blackness because they mass was too low or something. it sounds unusual now.

by fsd strain i assume you mean if you fly into the jets to get your fsd beyond its limits. that also works on white dwarf stars doesnt it?

John Rhys · Feb 25, 2017

NascentChemist said:
Quantum firewall is freaky. Two paired subatomic particles pop into existence from empty space, one matter and the other antimatter. Normally, they collide and go back to nothing. But if they appear along a black hole, one of the particles may be pulled away leaving the other behind. This causes bad things to happen, like the event horizon constantly emitting weird radiation.

Would be interesting to see if the difference in rotating and non rotating Black Holes is observable...

Qohen Leth · Feb 25, 2017

yodajedifishmaster said:
thing is when i jump to a class H i can see the distance counting down from 4.6mm while scanning. when i jump to a neutron star i jump and im still 0.71 Ls away while scanning. and no heat from either. white dwarf i am 4 Ls or so away and lot of heat. surely black holes you should arrive firther away than white dwarf and same for neutron stars if they have such massive gravity wells? or do they really have very tiny but powerful gravity wells (as in singularity lol)

They have massive gravity wells relatively to their mass. A tiny black hole won't radiate heat very far, is all. That is, in Elite's mechanics.

- - - Updated - - -

TomS said:
Why do some look all dusky and hazy (almost like galactic sandstorms) - when others look like tiny black pin-pricks with funny surrounding ocular effects?

As been pointed out already, you don't see the black holes. Now I'd like you to show me a "dusty and hazy" black hole...

Chazzie · Feb 25, 2017

yodajedifishmaster said:
thing is when i jump to a class H i can see the distance counting down from 4.6mm while scanning. when i jump to a neutron star i jump and im still 0.71 Ls away while scanning. and no heat from either. white dwarf i am 4 Ls or so away and lot of heat. surely black holes you should arrive firther away than white dwarf and same for neutron stars if they have such massive gravity wells? or do they really have very tiny but powerful gravity wells (as in singularity lol)

i have seen a black hole 5 solar masses which appeared as a black dot with lensing effect around it. i wish i had screenshot it now, i just assumed some you couldnt see the blackness because they mass was too low or something. it sounds unusual now.

by fsd strain i assume you mean if you fly into the jets to get your fsd beyond its limits. that also works on white dwarf stars doesnt it?

Yes, using the jets as an FSD boost was what I was referring to as strain on the Drive. I remember flying to the Maia black hole recently - I was a little disappointed that I could fly through it, but as I said earlier - I'm hoping FD will take a look at updating black holes soon!