Black hole wormholes

Nitrogue

N
Almost definetly not an original idea, but thought i would give it a shot.

So i came up with an idea whilst going around Iris' Missive for DW2.

The idea, as the title suggests, is to have black holes act like wormholes and send you to different places in the galaxy. thats the general idea, so here are some finer points that may flesh it out and keep it balanced:
  • Ship would take a lot of damage in the process, i.e. an anaconda with full reinforcement might come out the other side with 10/20% hull.
  • Destination would be a random system within a fixed area. would have to be careful with locked systems.
Some ideas for further refining:
  • Do something similar to the guardian tech and get an engineer to research "anti-gravity" reinforcement. Would then allow progression and open it up to more players, rather than a niche, elite concept.
  • Only have some black holes be wormholes. Would need some way to detect which are active. Could tie into previous point
  • Some wormholes could be active for only a certain period before going dormant for a while.
  • Have some wormholes go to the same area all the time, whilst others could migrate around (maybe in a predictable pattern)
Possible gameplay ideas:
  • High risk/reward cargo shipping. Is your ship strong enough to make the journey? Will the route be the same/available next time youre on?
  • Player groups go out to find the wormholes, map them and their destination, see if they can figure out the patterns (if there are any). could create the WH version of the neutron star highway.
  • Could have systems that are only accessable via WH
  • Ultimate exploration goal: intergalactic travel (i know pushing it a tad far now)
And theres my idea. I know its highly unlikely it will be added, mainly due to practicality of actually coding it and the whole balancing issues, but it was an idea.

Thoughts welcomed.
 

Nitrogue

N
Captain Thea Kreutzer said:
Wormholes/teleportation devices have been suggested before. But i like the idea of making Black holes actually dangerous.
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As i said, has strong potential to be overpowered, hence the unsafe nature/ initial low survival rate
Voronwe said:
Wormholes are nothing similar to Black Holes actually, even theoretically.
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Its a game, doesnt have to perfectly fit with our current understanding of the universe. Besides who knows what the next 1300 years of research will reveal. Was just playing with the idea of black holes leading to white holes. All being said, yes BH and WH are different (as far as we know), just had an idea for a rather under-utilised asset within the game (currently it causes a bit of damage if you get too close, and you get pretty distortion effects) that could be cool for a while. Remember the buzz when the first hyper-diction occured, and transfer that to the first person accidently falling in and getting to the other side.
 

Bard Voronwe

Bard Voronwe
Honestly: that only seems a fast-travel request to me. The black hole/white hole theory has been denied a long time ago, when it's been understood how black holes evaporate in time. So I'm sorry but I still don't think it's a good idea.
 

Nitrogue

N
Voronwe said:
Honestly: that only seems a fast-travel request to me. The black hole/white hole theory has been denied a long time ago, when it's been understood how black holes evaporate in time. So I'm sorry but I still don't think it's a good idea.
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fair enough, if thats your view. just wanted to get the idea down and see what other people think, from both sides of the fence.
 

Nitrogue

N
Kenneth Mcgrew said:
if it involves more modules, there is a certain hole the developers can stick it
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black hole?
i cant really see many modules being added for this. some specialised hull reinforcement was one of my ideas, maybe a scanner (like the wave scanner) in a utility slot. but in terms of mining going from just lasers to 4 additional tools, no. the tools will help locating and traversing but the idea was that everything else would be unaffected
 

Lestat

Banned
Lestat
Here another idea. Engineer you ship You can jump 70+ LY if you want to go farther use Neutron highway. You have a risk-reward.

We don't need another Wormhole idea that makes our galaxy smaller.
 

Azmuth Divarchchron

Azmuth Divarchchron
Nitrogue said:
Almost definetly not an original idea, but thought i would give it a shot.

So i came up with an idea whilst going around Iris' Missive for DW2.

The idea, as the title suggests, is to have black holes act like wormholes and send you to different places in the galaxy. thats the general idea, so here are some finer points that may flesh it out and keep it balanced:
  • Ship would take a lot of damage in the process, i.e. an anaconda with full reinforcement might come out the other side with 10/20% hull.
  • Destination would be a random system within a fixed area. would have to be careful with locked systems.
Some ideas for further refining:
  • Do something similar to the guardian tech and get an engineer to research "anti-gravity" reinforcement. Would then allow progression and open it up to more players, rather than a niche, elite concept.
  • Only have some black holes be wormholes. Would need some way to detect which are active. Could tie into previous point
  • Some wormholes could be active for only a certain period before going dormant for a while.
  • Have some wormholes go to the same area all the time, whilst others could migrate around (maybe in a predictable pattern)
Possible gameplay ideas:
  • High risk/reward cargo shipping. Is your ship strong enough to make the journey? Will the route be the same/available next time youre on?
  • Player groups go out to find the wormholes, map them and their destination, see if they can figure out the patterns (if there are any). could create the WH version of the neutron star highway.
  • Could have systems that are only accessable via WH
  • Ultimate exploration goal: intergalactic travel (i know pushing it a tad far now)
And theres my idea. I know its highly unlikely it will be added, mainly due to practicality of actually coding it and the whole balancing issues, but it was an idea.

Thoughts welcomed.
Click to expand...
Black holes are not wormholes. And all knowledge we have about blackholes supports that.
Black holes are capable of having bi-polar jet cones, just like neutron stars and quasars putting them in the "quantum star" family.
if they were wormholes it would make the formation of bi-polar jet cones impossible let alone the ammount of mass they contain because Wormholes would be
Torroidial quantum anomalies and not gravitational quantum anomalies.
Additionally its been observed in certian occasions that neutron stars can have accretion disks further supporting that black holes are quantum stars.

Even if you were able to resist the gravitational fields of a black hole, you would just crash into all the mass at the center and become part of it.
Black holes are not holes, its a fallacy of the naming scheme science has provided. They are quantum stars.

The fact of the matter is that all astronomical masses in the universe can only affect space up to the 4th measurable spatial dimension and it would take 5 measurable spatial dimensions or more for a wormhole to appear. Meaning that if a wormhole were to exist in our universe it would have to be artificial, the universe is incapable of producing a wormhole naturally.

Scientific reasons aside, Frontier will never implement wormholes in the game as they have already stated they don't want people traveling long distances instantaneously.
 
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krylite

krylite
Witchspace/hyperspace fsd jumps are practically like wormholes already, just between two stars. Another idea that has been suggested could be allowing jump travel to be able to fly past a waypoint star to continue on as long as the ship still had fuel or other factors. Pehaps even a mini-game to be able to navigate past the waypoint star and risk ending up somewhere else or even in the fabled witchspace realm..
 

Azmuth Divarchchron

Azmuth Divarchchron
krylite said:
Witchspace/hyperspace fsd jumps are practically like wormholes already, just between two stars. Another idea that has been suggested could be allowing jump travel to be able to fly past a waypoint star to continue on as long as the ship still had fuel or other factors. Pehaps even a mini-game to be able to navigate past the waypoint star and risk ending up somewhere else or even in the fabled witchspace realm..
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hyperspace navigation is impossible because she ship's instruments are blind during the hyperspace jump, it plots the jump path before it enters hyperspace and not during.
the reason being is that the ship's quantum density is shifted to such a degree by the FSD that the ship's sensors scale to the rest of the universe renders them blind because the ratio of incoming information to the receptors of the sensors is too different for the sensors to understand what they are looking at. Thats why your sensors start freaking out when you enter hyperspace.

plus manual navigation is a problem considering that you travel upwards of 20,000 times the speed of light,depending on fuel and mass limits imposed on the FSD, and since the ship's sensors cant detect objects while in hyperspace the ship AI has no way to determine if an emergency stop is required.
the likelyhood that you would crash would increase as you get closer to the galactic core as well. Witchspace is still part of normal space, because you are still able to see anywhere from 2-7 stars pass by you during transit depending on the density of the star field. Witchspace from lore was coined because of superstition by pilots, but its technically not a separate section from normal space itself. The difference in quantum density is what played tricks on the minds of superstitious pilots.

Also hyperspace failures will not cause you to magicaly appear some place else.
The FSD is much like the engine of a car. if your engine breaks down you will wind up somewhere between your starting point and your destination, not magically 1000 miles away from where you started or intended to be.
If the FSD breaks down all your supercruise/hyperspace propulsion immediately stops right then and there.
The FSD has to shift the quantum density of the ship because normal matter is incapable of traveling faster than light otherwise. Because of this shift in quantum density, your ship's actual kinetic momentum is at most a few hundred meters per second even though its moving across the universe faster than light.
so the moment your FSD fails your ship returns to the speed of whatever kenetic momentum it had internally as the FSD does not impose kinetic momentum on the ship itself.

The main reason why your ship gets damaged/gets rotated during an FSD fail is because the FSD does not get a chance to shut down properly causing the quantum density of the ship to return at an abnormal rate which causes the mass of the ship to expand against and contract away from itself breifly, which can cause hull damage and divert the direction of its internal kinetic momentum.
 
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ebbrell

ebbrell
I like the idea they randomly appear and disappear again. They would appear every so many days, allowing people to make use of them. Jump in and off you go to another far place on the galaxy map. Like wise the exit point would be roughly in the same place.

There needs to be risk in using them.

Maybe a new in ship module management to overclock or down clock things to reduce heat while you went through. Star citizen has a nice module management interface
 

Neutronium

Neutronium
Basically Azmuth Divarchchron nails it perfectly. Very nice and as scientifically accurate as possible (as the sci-fi lore of elite permits) explanation.
But I want to expand upon OPs concept of danger: Right now there is practically almost no danger from the natural phenomena of space in the Elite: Dangerous universe. The danger element is mainly artificially imposed to the player either from NPCs, other players or Thargoids. The universe is a dangerous place. The very nature of it is dangerous. And it is tragically underestimated by the game's mechanics. For example(s):
1. We arrive at a star, very close to it in fact, after an FSD jump and the only damage we may get is if we forget the throttle up during the jump and "crash" on its exclusion zone. Even then the damage is trivial. What about solar flares and coronal mass ejection, which are already visually depicted quite nicely IMO, but we get no damage from them. When we orbit close to the star after the jump and during fuel scooping, any of these phenomena if occurring in the direction of out passage should inflict damage to our ship. A warning could be issued from the ship's AI (COVAS). The damage type and amount could vary depending on the amount of time exposed to the solar flare / CME , its intensity, distance and general direction in relation to our position. Something similar in the lines of neutron stars/ white dwarfs cone jets. Now whether the FSD will get overcharged or not that is another story. Personally I think it should not.
2. Some stellar remnats (black holes, neutron stars, white dwarfs) should have accretion disks. These are not currently in game. For how they should look see my sig. These should also cause damage if traversed in SC. Similar but to a much higher extend than planetary rings crossing. The faster the speed we crash onto them the higher the damage. Droping inside them would also be extremely dangerous since matterial would be spinning at insane velocities (approaching C in normal space and the closer to the stellar remnant we are: BH>NS>WD in terms of damaging potential) and would be superheated (again BH>NS>WD in terms of damage). Dropping very close to the stellar remnant's inner part of the disk could be lethal / fatal.
3. Supercharging our FSD near stellar remnant should also be very dangerous. It should also be possible to supercharge it near BHs with gama / X-ray jet cones which should increase its jump distance even more but with severe damage to it (and many other ships systems).
4. Entering some of these new 3.3 phenomena, mainly the near planetary dust fields (mini nebulae I call them) should also be dangerous (radiation damage, toxic / corrosive gases). These may be already in game but I havn't come accross on yet so I may be wrong.
5. Unknown / random space phenomena and/or ship events can exist that can cause damage. For example canopy damage from a previous fight that has not resulted in canopy breach during the fight, may trigger canopy breach and loss of pressure if for example one of the above scenarios occurs.

In general, make the game dangerous as its title advocates.
 

Nitrogue

N
Ok, I get the impression that people dont want this, or at least the most vocal.

Please dont hide behind complex theoretical IRL science (it may prove to be true, but we are a little way off that). Its a game. It meant to allow us to do things we cant normally do. Are you going to say next we cant have pulse laser weapons, because it doesnt exist in our current technology level. Just a simple "I dont think this will work because it seems too much like a fast travel idea (as an example)" would suffice, rather than a "actually you'll find that this is not possible because our current understanding of quantum entanglement research clearly states that ….."

As I said, it was just an idea I had. I wanted to get it down. I wanted to try and flesh it out a bit rather than just a concept with nothing else. I wanted others to chip in, but it seems most prefer to shoot it down with a nuke.
 

Para Handy

Para Handy
Nitrogue said:
Ok, I get the impression that people dont want this, or at least the most vocal.
...........
As I said, it was just an idea I had. I wanted to get it down. I wanted to try and flesh it out a bit rather than just a concept with nothing else. I wanted others to chip in, but it seems most prefer to shoot it down with a nuke.
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First off, F D have stated they will not introduce portals in the galaxy. The travel times are already hugely reduced thanks to engineers, guardian boosters, jumponium and neutron star boosts.

Second, the idea / notion / suggestion is not new, there have been very many threads about this in the past.

The combination of the above is why you are seeing people disagree with the suggestion. Just because you don't see support doesn't excuse you using derogatory terms like "nuke".
 

Nitrogue

N
Para Handy said:
First off, F D have stated they will not introduce portals in the galaxy. The travel times are already hugely reduced thanks to engineers, guardian boosters, jumponium and neutron star boosts.

Second, the idea / notion / suggestion is not new, there have been very many threads about this in the past.

The combination of the above is why you are seeing people disagree with the suggestion. Just because you don't see support doesn't excuse you using derogatory terms like "nuke".
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fair enough, but similarly there wasnt even a "nice idea, but it wont work" they just came down like a tonne of bricks. if they knew what was going to be said, they didnt have to read the thread.

I suppose my view may be a tad warped, havent really left the bubble whilst playing, so the galaxy still seems extremely big. never used neutron boost and only recently used my first jumponium to get to a particular star, so things like this that potentially help me get to areas I never thought id get to.
 

Lestat

Banned
Lestat
When the question came up to David Braben CEO of Frontier. His point he did not want to shrink the galaxy.
 
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