Black Markets should not handle both stolen and smuggled goods.

[Red Fox Four]

Currently the black market handle all illicit business, which includes both smuggled items as well as stolen items.

When selling to the black market you always sell below market cost. This makes sense when you are selling stolen goods (however that also depends what the stolen goods are), but it does not make sense when you are selling smuggled goods.

This needs to be differentiated.

In order to make smuggling more profitable there needs to be a separate NPC, smuggler "board" or otherwise something separate from the black market board which accepts stolen goods.

Example:

You steal 20T Tea.
You sell those to black market for less than market price, but since it's stolen everything you get is pure profit (e.g. don't have to buy tea first, then sell and only profit is the price difference).

You buy 20T Slaves from an Anarchy system and fly them into a Federation space station.
You sell those to black market for... less than market price??? Why would they be sold for less than market price? Isn't the entire point of smuggling that you are bringing in something that is illegal, and because it is illegal and them wanting it they are willing to pay a HIGHER than market price for it?

Put simple the current black market system doesn't really differentiate between Stolen and smuggled goods. It just regards the cargo as "illicit" and then permits you to use the black market to sell that 'illicit' cargo.

It would make a lot more sense to have an NPC under the contacts (like the Search and Rescue agent) which handles smuggled goods. Selling items that are illegal in the system to this NPC would give you (much) higher (than market price average) prices for that smuggled cargo.

This would make smuggling more lucrative and interesting, and to keep the true risk-vs-reward in play then the higher security level and more central the space station you are trying to smuggle goods into is the more likely it should be for you to be scanned. But if you get through then the payout would likewise be much higher as well.

Also it would be nice to see some specialist cargoholds (like the corrosive resistant ones) which could be installed and decrease the chance of your cargo being detected by a cargo scan. E.g. a Class 3 "Smuggler" Cargo Hold would hold 6T instead of the regular 8T, but they would have a %-chance to prevent the cargo from being detected during scan (possibly with a new engineering option to increase the chance of avoiding detection).

Would be great fun to fly a smuggler-engineered Cobra or Asp, and a bit of added thrill when being scanned and hoping they won't detect the cargo.

I think this would go a long way towards making smuggling more fun and exciting (not to mention profitable, which is the whole point of smuggling in the first place).

Thoughts?

 

[ITZC0ATL]

I think you're onto a good point in relation to smuggled goods being worth more. However, I wouldn't like to see scan-resistant cargo racks as smuggling is already easy enough.

To make smuggling worthwhile and more exciting, it needs two things - more risk and more reward. The reward aspect you've covered well in your post, I think.

The racks are a good idea in themselves, though, and they could work if the risk and skill required to smuggle goods in was increased. Then these racks would allow us more strategic loadout choices that could partially (but not completely) mitigate the increasing smuggling difficulty.

I really look forward to the day that smuggling gets the Focused Feedback Forum treatment, hopefully FDev is already taking heed of ideas and conversations like these for when they develop their first draft.

 

[-VR- Max Factor]

We should be getting smuggling, assasinations and illegal passanger missions from the black market contact not in the factions section.

Maybe have a two different black market factions within a system, get friendly with one, get better rewards, but the consequences are is that you cannot be friendly with both and are hostile with the other.

You work for both, you never get friendly with either as the positive and negative rep cancel each other out.

 

[askavir]

100% agree.

Selling illegal goods should pay more than market price, not less.

However risks should also be buffed. Getting a fine is no deterrent. And the fact you're still allowed to dock and sell your illegal stuff even after being caught by the station police is, well, jarring.

You should get a heavy fine AND the police should command you to jettison the illegal cargo, and you would become wanted if you did not comply.

 

[Red Fox Four]

I think you're onto a good point in relation to smuggled goods being worth more. However, I wouldn't like to see scan-resistant cargo racks as smuggling is already easy enough.

To make smuggling worthwhile and more exciting, it needs two things - more risk and more reward. The reward aspect you've covered well in your post, I think.

The racks are a good idea in themselves, though, and they could work if the risk and skill required to smuggle goods in was increased. Then these racks would allow us more strategic loadout choices that could partially (but not completely) mitigate the increasing smuggling difficulty.

I really look forward to the day that smuggling gets the Focused Feedback Forum treatment, hopefully FDev is already taking heed of ideas and conversations like these for when they develop their first draft.

I agree that the risk should be raised, especially for high security and central systems.

I've also suggested that when security or police ships interdict you then you should be fined, perhaps even receive a bounty, if you do not submit, or if you submit then run away before they can finish the scan. I mean, even in real life there are severe penalties for attempting to evade law enforcement.

As for the stations themselves the scanning could be intensified and countermeasures to the typical "heat sink and silent running" implemented. E.g. if you go completely cold and they lose you on their radar (and there are already audio messages in the game during docking where they notify you that they lost you on radar) then your docking permission might be revoked. In other words, "heatsink+silent running" would not be a guaranteed method of always getting into a station with zero risk, since you might be refused to dock when not on scanners.

There could also be other measures such as the controller telling you:

"Due to increased pirate activity all ships must submit to a scan by authority ships before entering the docking bay".

Now, if you are carrying smuggled cargo and you get that message you have 2 choices:

1. Stop your ship and submit to the scan before you can dock, and cross fingers/pray the scan doesn't detect your smuggled cargo (this is where "Smuggler" cargo racks would come into play).
2. Hit the boost to run away, which might result in both a fine and authority vessels giving chase and trying to interdict you.

Wouldn't that make smuggling way more interesting and thrilling?

 

[Julio Montega]

Good points.
Let me add this:

Using the black market in anarchy should not negatively affect the anarchy faction
that governs the system bgs-wise, instead it should keep it healthy and in control.

 

[Underhook]

Yes your spot on. IRL smuggled goods are almost always a much higher price than than what they are available for elsewhere (eg. Cuban Cigars)
Sometimes goods can be stolen and smuggled and bring a very high price too (eg. guns in Australia)
This situation can be added to the 100 other things that make no sense in this game

 

[askavir]

Yes your spot on. IRL smuggled goods are almost always a much higher price than than what they are available for elsewhere (eg. Cuban Cigars)
Sometimes goods can be stolen and smuggled and bring a very high price too (eg. guns in Australia)
This situation can be added to the 100 other things that make no sense in this game

Exactly.

That's why (IMO) the difference whether goods would sell above or below market price shouldn't be wether they are stolen or not, but wether they are illegal at the location or not.

 

[Urbanski101]

We should be getting smuggling, assasinations and illegal passanger missions from the black market contact not in the factions section.

Maybe have a two different black market factions within a system, get friendly with one, get better rewards, but the consequences are is that you cannot be friendly with both and are hostile with the other.

You work for both, you never get friendly with either as the positive and negative rep cancel each other out.

Here, here...well said.

I would prefer all black markets to be moved to low sec systems and perhaps even a different UI for them - not the main station menu, it doesn't make sense that criminal activity is being promoted by the very people who would also be trying to stop it. Only makes sense to have the black market on the main station menu if the system is anarchy / lawless.

 

[Red Fox Four]

Good points.
Let me add this:

Using the black market in anarchy should not negatively affect the anarchy faction
that governs the system bgs-wise, instead it should keep it healthy and in control.

Honestly... why is there even a black market in anarchy systems?

Anarchy systems should have their own pricing and rules when it comes to trading (by that I mean stolen and smuggled goods should be incorporated on the commodities board and priced accordingly) and how trading different things affect the status of the system.

I would expect bringing stolen goods to an anarchy station would give me a price somewhere between the black market boards in the regular systems and the full (galactic average) price. Stolen goods would be less valuable in a normal station simply because someone has to "get rid" of the hot goods, so they pay you less since it is more work for them. In an anarchy system though there is no "getting rid of stolen goods by hiding it from the law", so there is less work involved and more based on what they need at the station, therefore they would pay more, but not quite as much as a regular station.

Overall though there should be a completely different / separate set of rules for smuggled and stolen goods in an anarchy system/station, as well as different way the BGS works as far as what changes the system status.

 

[Crank Larson]

Personally, I don't think what you are asking makes the slightest bit of sense. A black market isn't a physical market, it is the phrase used to describe any (and all) markets that are not legal. While it is a menu option for us in game, that is simply a mechanic - it doesn't mean that there is actually a market anywhere. As such, the black market is the correct place to go to for all nefarious business.

Smuggled goods only fetch a premium when there is demand for those smuggled goods. If you pick up a smuggling mission, you have the demand (and will be suitably rewarded on delivery). If you show up ad-hoc and try to get rid of your dodgy goods, then you'll receive below market value.

 

[Red Fox Four]

Personally, I don't think what you are asking makes the slightest bit of sense. A black market isn't a physical market, it is the phrase used to describe any (and all) markets that are not legal. While it is a menu option for us in game, that is simply a mechanic - it doesn't mean that there is actually a market anywhere. As such, the black market is the correct place to go to for all nefarious business.

Smuggled goods only fetch a premium when there is demand for those smuggled goods. If you pick up a smuggling mission, you have the demand (and will be suitably rewarded on delivery). If you show up ad-hoc and try to get rid of your dodgy goods, then you'll receive below market value.

What is the point of smuggling goods to a system, outside of using mission board, if you never get a proper profit from doing so (due to black market board always paying you below market average for smuggled and stolen items) ?

You can do trading without having to use missions for it, and still earn profits.

So why can't we do smuggling without having to use missions for it, and still earn profits?

 

[Crank Larson]

What is the point of smuggling goods to a system, outside of using mission board, if you never get a proper profit from doing so (due to black market board always paying you below market average for smuggled and stolen items) ?

There's no point at all unless you have established that there is a demand in the target system (and currently the only way to do this is to pick up a mission). Why would you expect to make a profit simply by turning up somewhere with something illegal? Just because something is illegal doesn't mean it is in demand - usually it means the opposite.

 

[zombieapocalypse]

It would be nice if you could attempt to bribe the authorities; as your reputation with the controlling faction improves, the chances of successfully bribing them improves. Anyway, I agree that smuggling needs to be both more interesting/exciting and more rewarding.

 

[Rob_the_Sparky]

Agreed, a decent smuggling mechanic would be most welcome. People who want goods that are illegal are going to have to pay a higher than market price to make it worth selling. This is different to a seller trying to off load stolen but legal items, which you would expect to sell for well under market price.
.
This simple change would enable smuggling as a profession.

 

[Shiro Akai]

I said it earlier - black markets should be totally separated from normal markets and tied to anarchy systems. Core of the bubble where security is high - no black markets at all (bare with this for a moment). Middle ring - regular stations with some black market ones. Outer rim - lawless space, almost black markets exclusively.

Next - trading in core is dull, regular and boring. No pirates, no interdictions (due to high sec). Pay is low. Mid rim you start illegal career. Steal some, smuggle some, unlock fences that offer better black market prices. Essentially illegal power play mixed with engineers idea. When you advance in rep with certain "clans" you go to outer rim where real money is.

High risk assassination jobs, stealing stuff from high sec core worlds. High profit but high risk smuggle runs into core worlds. Remember? No pirates core. Would you dare?

The more you advance in crime world, the more "famous" you became in core worlds, making every visit to high sec be a thrilling one. Will they discover me or not?
New module - fake ID transponder, already mentioned smuggling cargo racks (lower capacity but scan resistant). Man, I'm a law abiding CMDR but I have so many ideas to make piracy and smuggling entertaining, fun and profitable. Some of those ideas require Karma system. But if half of that would be in game I'd go and became next Han Solo.

Python, passenger cabin, regular cargo racks + some smuggling compartments, fake ID transponder and best FSD there is...

Dreams...

 

[Crank Larson]

Incidentally, smuggling has always been about undercutting market prices (usually by avoiding tax). So it would make no sense to be paid a premium for smuggled goods...

People who want goods that are illegal are going to have to pay a higher than market price to make it worth selling.

Which is what happens on the mission boards.

 

[-VR- Max Factor]

I said it earlier - black markets should be totally separated from normal markets and tied to anarchy systems. Core of the bubble where security is high - no black markets at all (bare with this for a moment). Middle ring - regular stations with some black market ones. Outer rim - lawless space, almost black markets exclusively.

Next - trading in core is dull, regular and boring. No pirates, no interdictions (due to high sec). Pay is low. Mid rim you start illegal career. Steal some, smuggle some, unlock fences that offer better black market prices. Essentially illegal power play mixed with engineers idea. When you advance in rep with certain "clans" you go to outer rim where real money is.

High risk assassination jobs, stealing stuff from high sec core worlds. High profit but high risk smuggle runs into core worlds. Remember? No pirates core. Would you dare?

The more you advance in crime world, the more "famous" you became in core worlds, making every visit to high sec be a thrilling one. Will they discover me or not?
New module - fake ID transponder, already mentioned smuggling cargo racks (lower capacity but scan resistant). Man, I'm a law abiding CMDR but I have so many ideas to make piracy and smuggling entertaining, fun and profitable. Some of those ideas require Karma system. But if half of that would be in game I'd go and became next Han Solo.

Python, passenger cabin, regular cargo racks + some smuggling compartments, fake ID transponder and best FSD there is...

Dreams...

That doesn't make sense. In actuality it should be the other way round. Black markets in hi security systems 100% of the time with high rewards due to the added risk, some black market in medium security with medium rewards with less risk, low security a few scattered around with low rewards with little risk and anarchies with no black markets as there are no laws on commodities.

Black market should only buy and sell certain good depending where the black market is located.

That incentivises people to smuggle into hi sec places with risks but good rewards. Commodity values should get higher the lower the security due to the added risk. You get stolen goods they should only be able to sell them in black markets that want those good. You shouldn't be able to sell them anywhere that is what anarchy systems are for. So you get drugs for instance at an anarchy or low security and smuggle it into a high security system for large profits. That is how it should work with a good mission system too. You pirate a ship and steel it's cargo, you go anl anarchy system to sell on the commodities market there for good money.

Then add in black market factions with a mission system with consequences and then you have a pretty good way of doing stuff.

Maybe in the black markets section you could have a fence that gets rid of your stolen goods if you want to get rid of them, but it will not be a great price, anarchy systems commodities market would be best for that.

 

[Goose4291]

Honestly... why is there even a black market in anarchy systems?

Anarchy systems should have their own pricing and rules when it comes to trading (by that I mean stolen and smuggled goods should be incorporated on the commodities board and priced accordingly) and how trading different things affect the status of the system.

I would expect bringing stolen goods to an anarchy station would give me a price somewhere between the black market boards in the regular systems and the full (galactic average) price. Stolen goods would be less valuable in a normal station simply because someone has to "get rid" of the hot goods, so they pay you less since it is more work for them. In an anarchy system though there is no "getting rid of stolen goods by hiding it from the law", so there is less work involved and more based on what they need at the station, therefore they would pay more, but not quite as much as a regular station.

Overall though there should be a completely different / separate set of rules for smuggled and stolen goods in an anarchy system/station, as well as different way the BGS works as far as what changes the system status.

This is a question I've asked repeatedly throughout this whole 'punishment and punishment' update and its plan to push PvPers and Pirates into anarchies.

It makes zero sense, because as you've highlighted, if I as a pirate was to use an anarchy to sell my stolen wares to, it will hurt the anarchy faction and slowly but surely push them into losing control of the system.

 

[CMDR Kyzer]

Ya know, ive never even given much thought to smuggling or utilizing the black market... but if the implemented some of your ideas, i certainly would give it a shot.