Bring back the spirit of Lave! A plea to Frontier about the new rare goods

[Alexander the Grape]

One of the most fun I've ever had in Elite was all the activity going on in the Lave cluster. When everyone was rare-trading, avoiding pirates, looping round to the same few systems, player interaction was constant and awesome.

Traders had a way less monotonous time, pirates had plenty of targets, and bounty hunters had a "hive of scum and villainy" to try and clear out.

Now though, these former hubs are quiet and dead. Once you get to a level of trading where you have a type 7/Python/Clipper, Rare trading sin't worth it, and it's back to the standard back and forth of 2 system loops. This means less player interaction, less activity, less interesting interactions and altogether less of a game and more of a grind.



My request is this: give these new Master Chef rare goods (and future rare goods) a MASSIVE allocation. I'm talking 75+ tons of rare good per loop (depending on what tier's reached of course). Give players a reason to go back to rare trading, even if they're in Clippers, Pythons and Type 9s. It'll help break up the monotony of trading and return some life to once-thriving hubs.

Profit wise, it needs to be competitive with bulk commodity trading given the same time investment, preferably more so (we want to encourage less "grindy" gameplay!).



"But Alexander the Grape!" I hear you say. "Won't this ruin rare trading for newer players, who will only have to go to one system as one allocation could fill up a T6's cargo bay?"

The answer to that is simple: Make these commodities REALLY expensive. I'm talking 200k per ton. That way, a newer player simply won't be able to afford to fill up on them without massive risk, and instead will go with the safer option of hopping to buy the cheaper, and almost-as-profitable goods.

This would also provide a much needed boon to Pirates: as currently even the most expensive goods aren't valuable enough to be worth the risk of stealing


So in conclusion

• Give new rare goods increased allocation and profit
• Make them extremely expensive

Hopefully this way we can make trading less of a grind and bring players together to have more fun

 

[KillingTime]

don't you still just have the same grind but with more profit?

or, if it's comparable to bulk trading the same grind for the same profit just with different commodities? I'm not getting how it's any different to be honest!

Edit:

ok I think I realise now you mean that even though it's 200k/t to buy, you can only sell it for, say, 216k/t so you're still making the 16k/t profit but can stock up on more of the goods at a single station

It's a better idea than I first thought I'll give you that but still not convinced!

 

[Serpentis Ictis]

Yep, the thing about rare goods is they are so under priced to start with!

Greatvproposal +1etc

 

[Alexander the Grape]

don't you still just have the same grind but with more profit?

or, if it's comparable to bulk trading the same grind for the same profit just with different commodities? I'm not getting how it's any different to be honest!

Rare trading is more interesting than bulk trading in the eyes of many players because it requires more tactical gameplay choices (jump range vs cargo vs defensibility vs fuel tank vs fuel scooping speed being a big one), brings players together, and has more variety (you get to see the galaxy rather than the same two systems)

 

[Weps]

• Give new rare goods increased allocation and profit
• Make them extremely expensive

 

[Privata]

don't you still just have the same grind but with more profit?

or, if it's comparable to bulk trading the same grind for the same profit just with different commodities? I'm not getting how it's any different to be honest!

Edit:

ok I think I realise now you mean that even though it's 200k/t to buy, you can only sell it for, say, 216k/t so you're still making the 16k/t profit but can stock up on more of the goods at a single station

It's a better idea than I first thought I'll give you that but still not convinced!

Grind is only a state of mind... you decide if you want to ''grind'' or not , and no matter what you do you still make massive profit ; if thats what you want

 

[Skyrun]

In general the idea is good.
But I am not a fan of making the rares more expensive that will just lead that it is even worse if you get caught by a pirate which leads to the situation that more will play in solo.

I think such hubs for long range mission like we had in Sothis would be good. Single points were you get really good missions. Everyone would go there and pirates have a good point to hunt or fight each other.

 

[Deleted member 38366]

Hehe, guess why these places have been abandoned ?
It's because they had succumbed to being the complete Anarchy mudholes they were during their peak times

The "old worlds" have been the prime dark spot on the proverbial incompetence of the Alliance (or the systemic failure of any System Security concept in the entire Game).
They've been the core demonstrator of the insane imbalances of PvP Ganking (which typically hovers around 1:1000 and can easily reach far more ludicrous levels).
They've demonstrated what happens when rampant crime, abuse and terrorism goes entirely unpunished and uncountered by any means.
...and essentially, places like Lave have merely proven the long-predicted side-effects of letting this toxic chaos run along completely unattended.

During the peak times, you'd have to be completely crazy to run into them i.e. in a Type-7 or Type-9.
They had become zero-security NoGo areas. That's what happened.

Now they're deserted and the core reasons for that all happily remain in place to this date. Plus, alot of very good or better alternatives to make Credits have developed along the way.
I know my opinion isn't popular - but for all I care those Systems could all get sucked into a supermassive Black Hole or burn in a Supernova. They'd be absolutely no loss.
btw, that "spirit of Lave" you can still experience during some Community Goals at the right times. Once in a while they turn into similar meat-grinders.

PS.
I kinda liked Lave and Leesti nonetheless.
Everything that was wrong the Game in terms of cheats, exploits, abuse, loopholes, complete lack of balancing or complete lack of logical action & reaction mechanics... it was all there for everyone to see, all in one place.
Best place to test Shields against afterburner-ramming Orcas or pre-nerf Dumbfire Missiles I ever saw.

Disclaimer :
I actually visited the Lave cluster today to pick up some rares. Haven't done it in a very long time and just needed some stuff for a special occasion coming up.
It felt good to see these places dead and abandoned. That's exactly what they earned themselves - after all they worked very hard for their Reputation and I sure won't challenge the fruits of their hard work.

 

[Alexander the Grape]

Hehe, guess what why these places have been abandoned ?
It's because they had succumbed to being the complete Anarchy mudholes they were during their peak times

The "old worlds" have been the prime dark spot on the proverbial incompetence of the Alliance (or the systemic failure of any System Security concept in the entire Game).
They've been the core demonstrator of the insane imbalances of PvP Ganking (which typically hovers around 1:1000 and can easily reach far more ludicrous levels).
They've demonstrated what happens when rampant crime, abuse and terrorism goes entirely unpunished and uncountered by any means.
...and essentially, places like Lave have merely proven the long-predicted side-effects of letting this toxic chaos run along completely unattended.

During the peak times, you'd have to be completely crazy to run into them i.e. in a Type-7 or Type-9.
They had become zero-security NoGo areas. That's what happened.

Now they're deserted and the core reasons for that all happily remain in place to this date. Plus, alot of very good or better alternatives to make Credits have developed along the way.
I know my opinion isn't popular - but for all I care those Systems could all get sucked into a supermassive Black Hole or burn in a Supernova. They'd be absolutely no loss.

PS.
I kinda liked Lave and Leesti nonetheless.
Everything that was wrong the Game in terms of cheats, exploits, abuse, loopholes, complete lack of balancing or complete lack of logical action & reaction mechanics... it was all there for everyone to see, all in one place.
Best place to test Shields against afterburner-ramming Orcas I ever saw.

I'm not sure this theory holds up. It's abandoned because it's too crowded? That makes no sense.

Some people like having dangerous, populated areas with a reason to go to them. Their inclusion does not affect anyone else's gameplay negatively, so what's the problem? You don't like it, don't go (or go in solo)

 

[Quineloe]

Yeah, no. I'm not going to fill the hold of an Anaconda with 80 million worth of goods so I can enjoy the player interaction of getting blown up for the fun of making me lose 90 million credits.

And rare trading has died because missions are now better income for the mid level players.

 

[Deleted member 38366]

I'm not sure this theory holds up. It's abandoned because it's too crowded? That makes no sense.

Some people like having dangerous, populated areas with a reason to go to them. Their inclusion does not affect anyone else's gameplay negatively, so what's the problem? You don't like it, don't go (or go in solo)

Crowded? Don't think that's the issue of the OP, rather the opposite (?)
I didn't see a single soul, although the Lave/Leesti Traffic Reports still had at least a few Ships on their roster. Not a whole lot, though.

As I said, they don't quite qualify anymore as "Populated Systems", they're almost the polar opposite now.
I've seen them in the old days.... Very very busy places. And extremely dangerous, being the System-wide lawless Conflict zones they ended up being.

 

[Limoncello Lizard]

One of the most fun I've ever had in Elite was all the activity going on in the Lave cluster. When everyone was rare-trading, avoiding pirates, looping round to the same few systems, player interaction was constant and awesome.

Good luck trying to change the way rare goods are implemented. Some players seem to like it boring and unprofitable.

 

[Alexander the Grape]

Yeah, no. I'm not going to fill the hold of an Anaconda with 80 million worth of goods so I can enjoy the player interaction of getting blown up for the fun of making me lose 90 million credits.

And rare trading has died because missions are now better income for the mid level players.

So... Don't? Or play in solo? I'm not sure how that invalidates the idea that some players want more risk/reward and player interaction.

Plus, you won't get people blowing you up if they can take some cargo and make a fat profit otherwise

While you may have a point about missions, I don't think that's a reason why rare trading shouldn't be a viable choice for high-wealth players.

 

[Quineloe]

So... Don't? Or play in solo? I'm not sure how that invalidates the idea that some players want more risk/reward and player interaction.

So people trading in solo will somehow fix your lack of player interaction? I don't play in solo, but I'm not going to take massive risks in open either. I might as well try shieldless silent running Anaconda in PVP.

Plus, you won't get people blowing you up if they can take some cargo and make a fat profit otherwise

You really believe this? I know you know the players who wing up with the sole purpose of killing CMDRs, I've seen you fly with them and do exactly that. You really think the billionaire Ma******sh is going to pass on the opportunity to cause another player a 100 million credit loss so he might make 1 million? Or SDC? ROA? He's streaming his "lol pwnt noob" murder stream on twitch all the time.

These guys will kill Anacondas with 400t of those rares on board, they will record the kills and they will carry the videos straight to reddit to brag.

By the way, what kind of profit do you suggest per ton on those 200k rares?

While you may have a point about missions, I don't think that's a reason why rare trading shouldn't be a viable choice for high-wealth players

I'm not saying rares shouldn't be viable for high end players and I have repeatedly suggested changes to make it possible. It's moot though, FDev is still scared blind of the profits players made with rares a year ago and will not do any positive change to them whatsoever.

I just think your idea is misguided. Simply because no one is going to risk that kind of money with so many sociopaths whose sole motivation is causing other players severe losses. Even if those rares were added, they would never be traded in big ships in open play.

 

[Deleted member 38366]

I'd agree Rares Trading could use a sensible buff to make it interesting again as an alternative to standard trading - also for wealthy Players who'd have other, much better Options right now.

Doesn't need much IMHO, just maybe keep the delay for the max. allotment at a far lower time.
Like max. one update cycle to get the maximum possible. That would help docking and seeing a "bad roll" of only 1-3 tons, with some 10-15 coming in only during the next 30 Minutes.

Sitting down in Tarter Dock, Wuthielo Ku right now (Open Play), on the way back home I'll make only one more stop in CD-75 661.

Filling it up this much already took me the entire day, plus I'm getting very long HyperJump delays since a few hours... Those don't really help.
Either way, alot of goodies for sure. But even with Mining right back at home, I could have easily made double that in the same Ship.
If it wasn't for a special reason, I'd never have invested all that time, just not worth it.

PS.
Apart from 2 Ships in Shinrarta Dezhra, I haven't seen a single soul anywhere so far (unless I missed some while being AFK waiting in a Station).
I took a somewhat random/chaotic route though, definitely not an efficient Rares Trading route for everyday use.

-- edit --
Okay screw this... what's with the Hyperjumps right now? Well over 1 Minute every time.
Haven't tested Solo mode in a long time, hope that doesn't have the same issue.

 

[Alexander the Grape]

So people trading in solo will somehow fix your lack of player interaction? I don't play in solo, but I'm not going to take massive risks in open either. I might as well try shieldless silent running Anaconda in PVP.



You really believe this? I know you know the players who wing up with the sole purpose of killing CMDRs, I've seen you fly with them and do exactly that. You really think the billionaire Ma******sh is going to pass on the opportunity to cause another player a 100 million credit loss so he might make 1 million? Or SDC? ROA? He's streaming his "lol pwnt noob" murder stream on twitch all the time.

These guys will kill Anacondas with 400t of those rares on board, they will record the kills and they will carry the videos straight to reddit to brag.

By the way, what kind of profit do you suggest per ton on those 200k rares?


I'm not saying rares shouldn't be viable for high end players and I have repeatedly suggested changes to make it possible. It's moot though, FDev is still scared blind of the profits players made with rares a year ago and will not do any positive change to them whatsoever.

I just think your idea is misguided. Simply because no one is going to risk that kind of money with so many sociopaths whose sole motivation is causing other players severe losses. Even if those rares were added, they would never be traded in big ships in open play.

Not sure what you're suggesting. I have never to my knowledge killed a player without a valid reason (they attacked me first, didn't give up cargo, had a bounty or were participating in hostile Powerplay or Community Goal activities).

Griefers are real, but if they were clustered in 1 system then bounty hunters would provide them with fierce resistance. Just look at the Kaushpoos CG.

And, for that matter: pirates. If piracy were actually worthwhile, then there would be an incentive for both pirates and bounty hunters to take out mindless murderers. And if mindless murderers kept getting killed, more and more would see doing the same sort of thing - but making money - as a serious alternative

You suggest that no one is willing to risk millions in cargo for extra profits, but I have killed CMDRs undermining in Open with bounties of 500k+. 500k bounty = 3,000 merits = roughly 30 million cr worth of merits. Why wouldn't they fill their cargo hold with 30 million worth of goods for extra profit?

 

[Ben Ryder]

One of the most fun I've ever had in Elite was all the activity going on in the Lave cluster. When everyone was rare-trading, avoiding pirates, looping round to the same few systems, player interaction was constant and awesome.

Traders had a way less monotonous time, pirates had plenty of targets, and bounty hunters had a "hive of scum and villainy" to try and clear out.

Now though, these former hubs are quiet and dead. Once you get to a level of trading where you have a type 7/Python/Clipper, Rare trading sin't worth it, and it's back to the standard back and forth of 2 system loops. This means less player interaction, less activity, less interesting interactions and altogether less of a game and more of a grind.



My request is this: give these new Master Chef rare goods (and future rare goods) a MASSIVE allocation. I'm talking 75+ tons of rare good per loop (depending on what tier's reached of course). Give players a reason to go back to rare trading, even if they're in Clippers, Pythons and Type 9s. It'll help break up the monotony of trading and return some life to once-thriving hubs.

Profit wise, it needs to be competitive with bulk commodity trading given the same time investment, preferably more so (we want to encourage less "grindy" gameplay!).



"But Alexander the Grape!" I hear you say. "Won't this ruin rare trading for newer players, who will only have to go to one system as one allocation could fill up a T6's cargo bay?"

The answer to that is simple: Make these commodities REALLY expensive. I'm talking 200k per ton. That way, a newer player simply won't be able to afford to fill up on them without massive risk, and instead will go with the safer option of hopping to buy the cheaper, and almost-as-profitable goods.

This would also provide a much needed boon to Pirates: as currently even the most expensive goods aren't valuable enough to be worth the risk of stealing


So in conclusion

• Give new rare goods increased allocation and profit
• Make them extremely expensive

Hopefully this way we can make trading less of a grind and bring players together to have more fun

Nope. Increased alloaction stops them being rare.

Just allow more different rares to be created spread out accorss the galaxy and that will be fine, especially for collectors.

 

[Quineloe]

And, for that matter: pirates. If piracy were actually worthwhile, then there would be an incentive for both pirates and bounty hunters to take out mindless murderers. And if mindless murderers kept getting killed, more and more would see doing the same sort of thing - but making money - as a serious alternative

Let's get to that stage first before we add cargo players have to purchase for 200k per ton, okay? =)

You suggest that no one is willing to risk millions in cargo for extra profits, but I have killed CMDRs undermining in Open with bounties of 500k+. 500k bounty = 3,000 merits = roughly 30 million cr worth of merits. Why wouldn't they fill their cargo hold with 30 million worth of goods for extra profit?

We're not talking about millions. We're talking about a hundred million. Extra profit? It can't possibly be high enough without people just making that kind of bank in solo mode without risk. FD isn't going to add reliable 20m+ profit per hour trading.


I don't really understand the last part of your sentence, but it seems you mix up profits not yet earned vs already earned money actually lost, which are two completely different things.

Also, how do you know they haven't turned in their merits at that point and are back for round two? I don't think the comparison is valid.

Here's another issue with your system: If I were to do this, I'd sell the rares at a random system somewhere nearby the rare carrying systems and then just fly for the next pickup empty.

 

[Alexander the Grape]

Let's get to that stage first before we add cargo players have to purchase for 200k per ton, okay? =)

Piracy can't be worthwhile at current cargo prices. The economics of it just don't make sense

 

[CMDR Weatherwax]

Piracy can't be worthwhile at current cargo prices. The economics of it just don't make sense

I don't think the purchase price should really matter it's the selling price that would help. Maybe if rares held current values but there was a set additional profit bonus to take them to a specific station then you could get the risk/reward ratio up to what would work.

I never understood the need to sell at Lave when doing the Witchaul/lave circuit and would instead drop off at a system close to Lave instead that didn't stock rares. That gave me same profit but less risk. If instead Lave and Witchaul had a built in x% bonus above anywhere else then you get what you want and traders get to make their risk call based on that.