C&P/ATR feedback - please consider implementation

[StiTch]

Hi folks.

Quick note around the direction of C&P and ATR security responses: the proposed direction is not necessarily to bring instant retribution upon criminals, but instead to make it difficult to sustain an attack for a prolonged period of time. The intention I guess effectively boils down to "make it harder for players to commit murder because they have a limited time to do so".

I'd like to put the warning out there that this is absolutely the opposite approach of what will be effective. As long as the mindset is "implement PvE measures to stop them nasty gankers", C&P will fail to achieve meaningful results.

Against a target not equipped with the ship or skills to escape, a murder can often be executed in the time it takes to be scanned, let alone for any security force to respond, drop in, call the shots and make them.

Meanwhile this will unequivocally harm what the community sees as "legitimate" PvP and crime, from piracy to bounty hunting (PvP bounty hunting being a tool many are desperate to see developed as a player contribution to consequence). You can make a kill in seconds flat; you cannot pirate a ship in that time, and nor can you kill a semi competent murderer in that time.

Please can I suggest that you view the larger picture, and instead of buckling to every cry that you put a nail in the coffin of all crime, address the fundamental balance issues that allow murder to be irreproachable. You cannot prevent murder in a game that allows for such disparity in ship builds, but you can develop meaningful consequence...yet no security response you generate will succeed in a game where players are engineered to the nines and can simply pull the plug on their connection without reproach if their engineering fails. And yes, the latter part refers to the murderers too: some more shameful players of their kind are not beyond making kills and pulling the plug themself.

Come on guys, you weren't terrified of supporting piracy/meaningful crime in your early days - and you won't achieve meaningful consequence to murder in the current environment.

 

[GunnerBill]

I agree with your point re. how long it takes to kill a poorly equipped ship. But you were looking for something to be implemented but don't say what?

Am I missing something here? If you are referring to another thread or piece of info can you reference it in OP pls.

 

[StiTch]

I agree with your point re. how long it takes to kill a poorly equipped ship. But you were looking for something to be implemented but don't say what?

Am I missing something here? If you are referring to another thread or piece of info can you reference it in OP pls.

To be fair my bad, I did only very briefly cover the more appropriate measures, but wanted to keep OP from being a wall of text.

Ideally FD will encourage player based punishment of crime, through mechanics that don't penalise PvP bounty hunting too hard, through honest moderation of CLing, and ideally through the development of "hunting" tools such as the wake scanner. Simple fact is that the offender can have jumped from their new system to another new system in the time it takes for a scan of someone's wake to complete.

Perhaps wake scanners should be usable on live targets, and provided you remain instanced together, means if the target jumps to a new system their wake is instantly available to follow. On the note of hunting I'd really appreciate the development of a "known criminals" board, allowing CMDRs to identify notorious criminals and the last non-anarchy station they docked at, as reported by station services. High sec stations deliver this update instantly, low sec stations take a short while to update the board. This then actively integrates with potential karma changes that would lock such a murderer to Open, meaning they cannot mode hop to evade the demise they've enacted on others.

This has two major benefits: for a start, it might actually be effective. NPC ships will typically fail to dent a strong PvP ship and won't carry the tools or ability to engage and hunt CMDRs on the run such as FSD reboot missiles or wake scanners - they aren't even persistent.

Secondly it develops a positive branch of PvP; I bet there's a great deal more CMDRs than you'd think willing to be part of a positive anti-crime force that are unable to do so because recent C&P changes/proposals hit them harder than the actual criminal.

I'm not sure what the final solution should be to be fair, just that the ATR responses are blatantly not it. If FD or anyone can propose something meaningful you have my thumbs up.

 

[Rubbernuke]

ATR need to be persistent, not a pop in / out thing. They need to follow you through hi and low wakes, and really hound you- in this way once someone has ATR on them you know they won't be attacking anyone else.

And, I think we need a distress beacon that people can use to summon ATR (that has penalties for misuse) so that ATR can be on the scene as fast as possible.

Beyond that, people simply need to be prepared for attacks as there is only so much you can do.

 

[Roybe]

ATR need to be persistent, not a pop in / out thing. They need to follow you through hi and low wakes, and really hound you- in this way once someone has ATR on them you know they won't be attacking anyone else.

And, I think we need a distress beacon that people can use to summon ATR (that has penalties for misuse) so that ATR can be on the scene as fast as possible.

Beyond that, people simply need to be prepared for attacks as there is only so much you can do.

CrIme is desired by the devs...so constant harassment is not in the cards.

 

[Rubbernuke]

CrIme is desired by the devs...so constant harassment is not in the cards.

What I mean is, for ATR to kill you, they have to catch you and shoot at you. In most cases you can kill ships in seconds so ATR will appear when you jump out unless you stick about. If they keep after you then it becomes more of a threat.

 

[Dommarraa]

Not sure ATR are particularly to stop gankers, more to stop camping nav beacons for BGS clean kills

 

[StiTch]

What I mean is, for ATR to kill you, they have to catch you and shoot at you. In most cases you can kill ships in seconds so ATR will appear when you jump out unless you stick about. If they keep after you then it becomes more of a threat.

The issue here though is that crime becomes a case of "get marked as a criminal, lose all ability to play the game other than being on the run and shooting guys as you go". It's not an engaging solution and again the playstyles most actively discouraged will be the likes of piracy etc. that are considerably more "constructive". Ideally an offending CMDR will still be able to "hide" from security forces in whatever form they deem necessary, but if there's the motive to bring them down, players will be inclined to do so. It gives anti-murder factions such as AA an active foothold in hunting, not just sitting in noob space shooting wanted CMDRs.

You very correctly identified that being prepared for attacks is the correct solution to prevention; C&P must purely be a case of giving consequence, not attempting to prevent crime. Anything that approaches a semblance of preventing murder will full on castrate the likes of piracy etc.

Not sure ATR are particularly to stop gankers, more to stop camping nav beacons for BGS clean kills

Not sure what you mean, but feel free to elaborate

As far as I am aware pretty much all C&P at present is in some form aimed at cauterising mindless murder. And regardless of intention, in its proposed state it will still basically make all lawful space impossible to play the part of criminal in.

 

[Dommarraa]

Not sure what you mean, but feel free to elaborate

As far as I am aware pretty much all C&P at present is in some form aimed at cauterising mindless murder. And regardless of intention, in its proposed state it will still basically make all lawful space impossible to play the part of criminal in.

There is an exploity non-exploit in the BGS where one of the most effective actions is to kill Security Services. With their current fire power, any old fool in a Big 3 can camp at a Nav Beacon and is pretty much invulnerable. They have tried to fix it by turning down the effect, but the effect IS desirable, as long their are consequences and it isnt exploited. One of the phrases they used in the live stream indicates that this is at least A major reason for ATR, but maybe not the only one.

 

[StiTch]

There is an exploity non-exploit in the BGS where one of the most effective actions is to kill Security Services. With their current fire power, any old fool in a Big 3 can camp at a Nav Beacon and is pretty much invulnerable. They have tried to fix it by turning down the effect, but the effect IS desirable, as long their are consequences and it isnt exploited. One of the phrases they used in the live stream indicates that this is at least A major reason for ATR, but maybe not the only one.

Ah I see, cheers for clarification. I had always considered the ease of hammering out security forces, but didn't know it was regarded as that much of an issue.

If this is the sole purpose of the ATR then colour me an idiot, but from the hype it sounds like a much more active part of C&P than defending against a somewhat niche BGS exploit.

 

[Dommarraa]

Ah I see, cheers for clarification. I had always considered the ease of hammering out security forces, but didn't know it was regarded as that much of an issue.

If this is the sole purpose of the ATR then colour me an idiot, but from the hype it sounds like a much more active part of C&P than defending against a somewhat niche BGS exploit.

It wasnt that niche, it was pretty widespread, including being used to shut down every CG that wasnt prepared for it. It may also help with seal clubbing while, I really wouldnt know till its actually been seen in use.

 

[Rubbernuke]

The big question is, I wonder what influence you move for killing an ATR ship?

 

[Ascendo.tuum]

I agree with the OP. When I used to do pvp powerplay undermining, many of the ships that I'd interdict, including high ranked, large ships ... They'd be dead before my FSD even had a change to cool down.

IMO, it's down to laziness and greed on the part of some cmdrs. They just can't be bothered to put the time into engineering their ship to survive an attack and/or be bothered to learn the game mechanics that will allow them to survive.

 

[Roybe]

Ah I see, cheers for clarification. I had always considered the ease of hammering out security forces, but didn't know it was regarded as that much of an issue.

If this is the sole purpose of the ATR then colour me an idiot, but from the hype it sounds like a much more active part of C&P than defending against a somewhat niche BGS exploit.

Oddly, killing Authority always moves the BGS. Whenever some other way to move the numbers failed..you could always count on the Authority deaths to make movement.


I think people are overlooking the rest of the C&P update....there will be plenty of pain dished out to criminals...whether the ATR can make it into an instance quickly enough...won't really matter as the criminal will already be forced into tough straights by the bounty system and the lack of available services within a given jurisdiction....

 

[Roybe]

I agree with the OP. When I used to do pvp powerplay undermining, many of the ships that I'd interdict, including high ranked, large ships ... They'd be dead before my FSD even had a change to cool down.

IMO, it's down to laziness and greed on the part of some cmdrs. They just can't be bothered to put the time into engineering their ship to survive an attack and/or be bothered to learn the game mechanics that will allow them to survive.

I would believe that most commanders you catch and kill already take the ship loss into account. Whether I let you kill me or I suicide is up to which happens quicker. Yes, I can try to get to another system...but meh....I can make the loss of the ship and cargo up in a few runs...

 

[Rubbernuke]

I'm not sure how much of a deterrent it will be though. Normally I could kill about 3 waves of security before having to reload- with ATR if I bug out I won't get spanked but it does limit what I can kill in one go. Therefore, will ATR simply make mass security cleansing a more drawn out affair rather than stopping it outright?

I suppose the beta will have the answers to that.

 

[StiTch]

It wasnt that niche, it was pretty widespread, including being used to shut down every CG that wasnt prepared for it. It may also help with seal clubbing while, I really wouldnt know till its actually been seen in use.

I've adjusted OP by a few words so it's more about the general direction of C&P than ATR specifically, which to be fair is what I intended to address but was working under the potential delusion that ATR was intended to be FD's big solution.

I agree with the OP. When I used to do pvp powerplay undermining, many of the ships that I'd interdict, including high ranked, large ships ... They'd be dead before my FSD even had a change to cool down.

IMO, it's down to laziness and greed on the part of some cmdrs. They just can't be bothered to put the time into engineering their ship to survive an attack and/or be bothered to learn the game mechanics that will allow them to survive.

Oh hey there, not seen you on the forums before. If you are of the same CMDR name in-game, I have to give you props as the first player to chase me off in a long time at...I think 17 draconis. I'd just outfitted my iCutter for combat for the first time to see if it worked as anything but a hauler and let myself get in a shameful facetanking battle with your cutter that was far better equipped for face tanking than my own

Ofc if you aren't the same CMDR, then I'll just shut up now.

But yeah, agreed either way. C&P needs to remain crime and punishment, not crime and prevention.

 

[Ascendo.tuum]

I would believe that most commanders you catch and kill already take the ship loss into account. Whether I let you kill me or I suicide is up to which happens quicker. Yes, I can try to get to another system...but meh....I can make the loss of the ship and cargo up in a few runs...

Yes, perhaps so. But they were people participating in powerplay, so they would have lost their merits upon death too.

Plus rebuys on larger ships aren't cheap, especially Cutters. I know of some fairly profitable trade runs, but none that'll cover the cost of even a half decent trade Cutter.

Even from a pure time efficiency Vs credit loss, escape is always going to be the best choice IMO.

 

[Ascendo.tuum]

Oh hey there, not seen you on the forums before. If you are of the same CMDR name in-game, I have to give you props as the first player to chase me off in a long time at...I think 17 draconis. I'd just outfitted my iCutter for combat for the first time to see if it worked as anything but a hauler and let myself get in a shameful facetanking battle with your cutter that was far better equipped for face tanking than my own

Ofc if you aren't the same CMDR, then I'll just shut up now.

But yeah, agreed either way. C&P needs to remain crime and punishment, not crime and prevention.

You have a good memory!

The load out on my Cutter has changed a little since back then, hopefully it somewhat mitigates long drawn out face tanking fights.

 

[Kaocraft]

Hi folks.

Quick note around the direction of C&P and ATR security responses: the proposed direction is not necessarily to bring instant retribution upon criminals, but instead to make it difficult to sustain an attack for a prolonged period of time. The intention I guess effectively boils down to "make it harder for players to commit murder because they have a limited time to do so".

I'd like to put the warning out there that this is absolutely the opposite approach of what will be effective. As long as the mindset is "implement PvE measures to stop them nasty gankers", C&P will fail to achieve meaningful results.

Against a target not equipped with the ship or skills to escape, a murder can often be executed in the time it takes to be scanned, let alone for any security force to respond, drop in, call the shots and make them.

Meanwhile this will unequivocally harm what the community sees as "legitimate" PvP and crime, from piracy to bounty hunting (PvP bounty hunting being a tool many are desperate to see developed as a player contribution to consequence). You can make a kill in seconds flat; you cannot pirate a ship in that time, and nor can you kill a semi competent murderer in that time.

Please can I suggest that you view the larger picture, and instead of buckling to every cry that you put a nail in the coffin of all crime, address the fundamental balance issues that allow murder to be irreproachable. You cannot prevent murder in a game that allows for such disparity in ship builds, but you can develop meaningful consequence...yet no security response you generate will succeed in a game where players are engineered to the nines and can simply pull the plug on their connection without reproach if their engineering fails. And yes, the latter part refers to the murderers too: some more shameful players of their kind are not beyond making kills and pulling the plug themself.

Come on guys, you weren't terrified of supporting piracy/meaningful crime in your early days - and you won't achieve meaningful consequence to murder in the current environment.

See I think the problem is that you're not looking at the whole picture. You're just looking at ATR in the context of "will it stop any particular gank from happening?" And you rightly identify that the answer is "no". But when you take a step back and look at how all of this figures in with the bounty/rebuy system, the prison ships, the progressive offsets and increases to rebuys (for victim and perpetrator respectively), the notariety system, the restricted System Services via anonymous protocols, the restrictions and challenges that go with "hot" ships and modules; what it will almost certainly add up to is LESS ganking overall, and a concentration of that behavior to Anarchy systems and their immediate neighbors.

We'll see how well people are able to exploit/loophole their way around the system when the beta hits soon, but so far this is one part of the update that I am very optimistic about, and impressed by the thoughtfulness that has gone into it.