Caliber of a Huge Multigun/cannon

The scale of ED is something you tend to forget.

I like the Size 4 multicannon, other than the gatling gun design it looks more like a multi barreled AAA battery. This got me thinking about the size of this AAA battery. How big is it really?

The Federal Corvette is just short of 170m (550ft) long. And 87m (285ft) wide, putting it somewhere between a Heavy Cruiser and a Battleship in length. But is about twice as wide as the Yamato. The biggest Battleship ever made.

The cannons cover more than half of the back part of the Corvette behind the bridge. That back part of the ship covers about 25% of it's total length.
I estimate the cannons are about 25m (80ft) in length. The Cannon is a bit shorter at about 20m (66ft) By comparison the Yamato's guns were 21,3 meters (69,3ft) long.

The Yamato shot 46cm (18 inch) shells so the size 4 Cannon would shoot something of similar caliber. The multi cannon looks to be about 20 cm and firing at a high rate. There's nothing to compare this to really.

Conclusion: Although all vessels we fly can be classified as fighters or heavy fighters The heaviest fighters carry contemporary Battleship-sized guns.
Lots of dakka.

Just FYI :)
 
Have you seen the size the size of the railguns that BAE are testing?

[video=youtube;G1gi7XQtez4]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G1gi7XQtez4[/video]
 
Or, this is the length of your huge multicannons:

london-red-double-length-bendy-bus-crossing-junction-on-high-holborn-BC0H92.jpg
 
The Yamato shot 46cm (18 inch) shells so the size 4 Cannon would shoot something of similar caliber. The multi cannon looks to be about 20 cm and firing at a high rate. There's nothing to compare this to really.

Conclusion: Although all vessels we fly can be classified as fighters or heavy fighters The heaviest fighters carry contemporary Battleship-sized guns.

A huge cannon in Elite: Dangerous has a mass of 16 metric tons and contains 105 rounds of ammunition within that.

A single 46cm Type 94 gun from the Yamato was over 143 tons and fired shells that were nearly 1.5 tons each.

Beyond very rough linear dimensions, they aren't remotely comparable.
 
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A huge cannon in Elite: Dangerous has a mass of 16 metric tons and contains 105 rounds of ammunition within that.

A single 46cm Type 94 gun from the Yamato was over 143 tons and fired shells that were nearly 1.5 tons each.

Beyond very rough linear dimensions, they aren't remotely comparable.

I would go with that too, although it's possible that the construction materials are likely way more advanced than those on the Yamato. Not sure about ammunition weight though. Ammunition weight doesn't seem to be a factor in the game. By that I mean your jump range doesn't increase when your ammunition is depleted so it's plausible to assume that ammo doesn't weigh anything.

The projectile weapons in the game can't really be compared to anything here on earth as performance never stacks up. For example, the Avenger on the A-10 only weighs about 700lbs if I remember correctly, yes it can rip through the armor of a tank. I suspect that 5 of those mounted on a FDL would make mincemeat of pretty much any ship in the game in one burst.
 
A huge cannon in Elite: Dangerous has a mass of 16 metric tons and contains 105 rounds of ammunition within that.

A single 46cm Type 94 gun from the Yamato was over 143 tons and fired shells that were nearly 1.5 tons each.

Beyond very rough linear dimensions, they aren't remotely comparable.

A Crovette with the dimension that are roughtly that of a heavy cruiser weighs in at only 1000t. So the mass of the ships is skewed in a similar manner.
Whatever metal alloy the ships and guns in ED are made of , it's incredibly strong and light-weight. (probably Plotanium :) )

But a gun roughly the size of a battleship gun, and shooting out it's shell at roughly the same speed will do roughly the same damage if it's the same type of shell.
Whatever the stats say. we're not shooting with paper bullets.

I just wanted to give an illustration of how in space everything scales up. Just like everything scales up when going from land to water.
 
I would go with that too, although it's possible that the construction materials are likely way more advanced than those on the Yamato. Not sure about ammunition weight though. Ammunition weight doesn't seem to be a factor in the game. By that I mean your jump range doesn't increase when your ammunition is depleted so it's plausible to assume that ammo doesn't weigh anything.

The projectile weapons in the game can't really be compared to anything here on earth as performance never stacks up. For example, the Avenger on the A-10 only weighs about 700lbs if I remember correctly, yes it can rip through the armor of a tank. I suspect that 5 of those mounted on a FDL would make mincemeat of pretty much any ship in the game in one burst.

An A10 has a wingspan of 18m and is 16m long. You can almost fit 9 A-10's in the space of 1 FDL. An Eagle is roughly twice the size of an A-10. I think the Avenger is a bit bigger than a small MC, but not by much.
 
Reducing the weight of ammo (caseless) and of the weapon itself has severe RL problems re heat with projectile weapons.
 
Conclusion: Although all vessels we fly can be classified as fighters or heavy fighters The heaviest fighters carry contemporary Battleship-sized guns.
Lots of dakka.

I've actually been interested in this issue myself and I've done a visual estimation of the size of Elite guns as I was trying to determine what the real-world equivalents would be. Comparing the relative visual sizes of various guns carried by aircraft or armored vehicles helps in determining the approximate calibre. The issue here is that a very thick barrel or a large muzzle brake can distort the apparent calibre of the weapon and many Elite weapons have unusually-shaped barrels, but for the most part we can make reasonable estimates of the size of the weapons based on their visual appearance in the outfitting screen. You'll also notice that for some cannons there is no increase in caliber going from class 1 to class 2 cannons but the barrel length increases dramatically, but for comparison purposes I'll compare them to increasing calibres rather than increasing barrel length.

Class 1 Multicannon: 20-25 mm, 5-barrel galling autocannon, similar to the M61 Vulcan 20 mm cannon carried by the F-14/15/16 and the AH-1 Cobra

mNvVu8R.jpg


Class 2 Multicannon: 30-35 mm, 6-barrel gatling autocannon, similar to the GAU-8 Avenger 30 mm cannon carried by the A-10

WJ98cQz.jpg


Class 3 Multicannon: 40 mm, 5-barrel gatling autocannon, similar to a gatling version of the Bofors 40 mm autocannon anti-aircraft gun

5xZ3ZAS.jpg


Class 4 Mutlicannon: 50 mm, 4-barrel reciprocating autocannon, similar to a quad version of the BK-5 50 mm autocannon anti-aircraft gun

7tnRCTb.jpg


Class 1 Cannon: 50-60 mm, single-barrel autocannon, similar to the QF 6-Pounder 57 mm cannon carried by the Mosquito FB.XVIII ground attack aircraft

SHa90eE.jpg


Class 2 Cannon: 75-90 mm, single-barrel autocannon, similar to the M4 75 mm cannon carried by the B-25 Mitchell ground attack bomber variant

hQfJTiA.jpg


Class 3 Cannon: 100-120 mm, single-barrel autocannon, similar to the M-102 105 mm howitzer carried by the AC-130J Spectre gunship

rt3hipY.jpg


Class 4 Cannon: 200 mm, single-barrel autocannon, similar to the BL Mk VIII 8-inch naval gun

BMvGIQx.jpg


The majority of fighter-sized weapons carried by Elite ships are actually similar in caliber to what is carried by contemporary combat aircraft and anti-aircraft gun mounts, both in terms of size and weight. We only get beyond the 120-125 mm range with the class 4 cannon, which is rougly equivalent to an 8-inch naval gun in terms of size and calibre. The class 4 guns would be roughly equivalent to the 200 mm/8-inch guns main armament carried by a heavy cruiser from WWII but they would still be quite a bit smaller in size and weight than a battleship gun, which are 14-16 inch calibre and much larger weapons.
 
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That's some nice gun pron :)

And it certainly got me thinking if I was off in scale by that much as you and other replies suggest.
So I decided to put some things in perspective.

rsjwqSI.jpg


As you can see, it makes little sense comparing ED guns to guns in fighter aircraft. An FDL is as long as a 747 and a lot more massive, and a size 4 gunmount looks oversized on an FDL.
I overlayed the Yamato gun turret and a 137mm deck gun (I thought it was a 200mm, but it isn't) on a Federal Corvette to show the difference. It;s mayube not quite a Yamato gun, but it's definetly battleship sized.
 
That's some nice gun pron :)

And it certainly got me thinking if I was off in scale by that much as you and other replies suggest.
So I decided to put some things in perspective.

http://i.imgur.com/rsjwqSI.jpg

As you can see, it makes little sense comparing ED guns to guns in fighter aircraft. An FDL is as long as a 747 and a lot more massive, and a size 4 gunmount looks oversized on an FDL.
I overlayed the Yamato gun turret and a 137mm deck gun (I thought it was a 200mm, but it isn't) on a Federal Corvette to show the difference. It;s mayube not quite a Yamato gun, but it's definetly battleship sized.

The issue that we run into by just looking at the visual size of the class 4 cannon without scaling up from smaller weapons is that the visual size and the performance of the weapon reach a point where they don't actually match up very well for the larger guns. A more accurate way of looking at the issue is based in part on visual size/length as a starting point for the smaller weapons but also looks at mass, projectile weight and projectile velocity. Weapon damage and effectiveness in Elite doesn't scale with length (i.e, size/volume), it scales directly with weapon weight, so essentially this means the largest Elite guns look "oversized" for their actual effectiveness. They're "battleship sized" only from a volume/length perspective, not a mass/damage perspective. Essentially the gun performance seen in-game falls within the range of 20 mm rounds (class 1 multicannon) to 200 mm rounds (class 4 cannon). Elite uses "mass" as a scaling factor, not length, which is why I've compared the class 4 autocannon to being equivalent to a 200 mm (i.e. 8-inch) naval gun.

If the only criteria is length and not mass or damage effectiveness, a class 4 cannon is "battleship sized" but it cannot deliver an equivalent damage output to an actual battleship gun. A single 16 inch cannon on an Iowa weighs approximately 120 tons and fires 1 ton shells. What we can do however is look at effective muzzle velocities and estimated projectile weight for the smaller Elite multicannons to determine what types of kinetic energy we're dealing with and scale up from there. I'm using stats for gimbal mounts in all my examples as they're what I currently have on my ships, you can make similar comparisons for fixed or turrets if you wanted.

Starting with a class 1 multicannon, it weighs 2 tons and has 2100 rounds of ammunition with a projectile speed of 1600 m/s. Let's assume that 1/4 of the total weapon weight is ammunition, i.e., 0.5 tons of ammunition,. Again, for argument's sake let's assume that half of the cartridge is projectile mass and the remainder is the casing and propellant which is comparable to most autocannon designs. That gives us 240 g cartridge weight firing 120 g projectiles with a muzzle velocity of 1600 m/s.

This actually compares quite well to a M61 Vulcan 20 mm cannon, which uses M50 rounds with a 260 g cartridge weight firing a 102 g projectile at 1030 m/s. The muzzle velocity of the class 1 multicannon is significantly higher, giving around 2.5-3X the kinetic energy of a 20 mm Vulcan round, but the rate of fire is significantly lower at only 8.3 rounds per second or approximately 500 rpm. A Vulcan fires at 6000 rpm, or 100 rounds per second, and in this sense a Vulcan at full rate of fire would probably do considerably more damage than the class 1 multicannon although we would expect fewer shots to be on target. Overall however we're dealing with a similar overall damage output in terms of roughly comparable projectile weights and muzzle velocities.

Going to the class 2 muticannon, making similar calculations, gives us 480 g cartridges firing 240 g projectiles, at a lower rate of fire of 7.3 shots per second or 440 rpm. The velocity for all multicannons remains the same at 1600 m/s, which basically means we have double the projectile weight at 7.3 rounds per second instead of 8.3 rounds per second. This matches up quite well with the in-game damage ratings for the class 1 and class 2 multicannon, which have double the damage from 0.8 per round to 1.6 per round, which tells us that FD is also scaling gun damage based on total weight and assumes that projectile mass doubles with other parameters staying the same. In other words a class 2 multicannon fires projectiles that are double the mass but travel with the same velocity and a slightly slower ROF. This compares well to the projectile weight for the 30 mm cannon rounds fired by the GAU-8, which have a weight of around 380 g and a similar muzzle velocity to the M61 Vulcan's 20 mm rounds.

You can do similar calculations for class 3 and class 4 multicannons, making their calibres equivalent to approximately 40 mm or 50 mm rounds. Anything larger would need to be more than double the projectile mass with each increase in weight and we know that the projectile mass should approximately double with each increase in size category. Here's a good visual comparison of the difference between 20 mm Vulcan rounds and 30 mm GAU-8 Avenger rounds, you can extrapolate that up to 40 mm and 50 mm rounds and that is about the limit for the larger multicannons in Elite if we are limited by doubling the projectile weight with each increase in multicannon class:

JxIVje7.jpg


Now let's take a look at the class 4 cannon. It weighs 16 tons and has 100 rounds of ammunition. Let's assume again that 1/4 of the weapon weight is ammunition, i.e., 4 tons of ammunition, again assuming a 50% weight for projectile vs. casing/propellant. That gives us projectiles that weigh 20 kg each. Unlike multicannons the projectile weight varies with different types of cannon mounting, but for a gimballed class 4 it is 750 m/s. That compares reasonably well to the 200 mm (8-inch) naval guns, with the BL Mk VIII weighing 17.5 tons and having a similar muzzle velocity of around 850 m/s although they fire a significantly heavier round weighing 116 kg. In that sense we start to see the significant damage dropoff where Elite cannons don't really scale up in terms of damage potential anywhere near as well as they should based on their visual size. If anything we're seeing substantially lower powered cannons despite their impressive visual size, with a class 4 cannon looking the same size as a much larger naval gun but firing projectiles comparable to a visually much smaller weapon.

There is nothing you can mount on any of the player-operated ships that actually rivals a 16-inch battleship gun that weighs 120 tons and fires 1 ton shells at around 800 m/s. Even if the class 4 cannons in Elite were capable of doing this with extremely efficient propellant they would end up with an ammunition capacity of only 4 shots, not 100, and that leaves us with only 12 tons for the gun itself, which would be only be 1/10 the weight of a battleship gun. Essentially the class 4 cannon might look like a battleship gun but it only weighs 1/10 of the weight and fires projectiles that are only 1/10 of the mass of an actual 16 inch battleship gun.

Now, you could argue that Elite uses materials that are quite a bit stronger for their weight than modern steel and ship durability in Elite is certainly much higher than what we could produce with modern armor. In terms of kinetic energy however we have known maximums for projectile speed (which lists velocities in the outfitting screen) and we know the maximum ammunition weight that would be reasonable for the weapons to carry (which we are assuming are roughly 1/4 of the weapon emplacement weight that would likely consist of ammunition storage). You could also argue that a 200 mm cannon projectile in Elite uses superior explosives compared to what we can produce with modern technology, and in that sense they might inflict more damage than modern weapons, but the guns themselves are still not firing projectiles that have weights and velocities that rival a 16 inch battleship gun. The guns on Elite ships might LOOK battleship sized when you get to the class 4 cannon, but they are not firing projectiles that have an equivalent projectile mass and muzzle velocities of a battleship gun. At most you could consider the class 4 cannon equivalent in performance to a 200 mm naval gun (i.e., 8-inch naval gun) found on WWII-era heavy cruisers, and even then we are seeing a significant dropoff in projectile size and weight with a much smaller round being propelled at a similar muzzle velocity. If you want true battleship-level cannons you're going to need to go several steps up from that in terms of gun and projectile weight, i.e., you need to increase the projectile weight by approximately a factor of 10 in order to reach the level of firepower seen from a 16-inch naval gun.

The cannon batteries on the Farragut-class would certainly qualify for these types of sizes but they are considerably larger than a class 4 mount. Using the rule of doubling the weapon and projectile size for each increase in size category, a class 5-6 weapon would be equivalent in weight to a 11-12 inch naval gun at around 32-64 tons total weight, i.e., a weight of 24-48 tons for the gun with 8-16 tons of ammunition. The equivalent to a 16-inch battleship gun in Elite would weigh approximately 96-192 tons, i.e., a weight of 72-144 tons for the gun with 24-48 tons of ammunition, which would be considered a class 7 or 8 weapon mount in Elite outfitting terms.
 
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All the ships and equipment in Elite have extremely low densities, for whatever reason. We are talking lightly built aircraft levels at the low-end, decreasing to barely more than rigid airship levels at the high-end. That Federal Corvette in the image above has a mass of under 2000 tons in a full combat fit...the Yamato, with lesser volume, is a ~70,000 ton vessel. One of the main gun turrets on the Yamato weighs almost as much as a whole Federal Corvette.

I feel the linear scales are needlessly inflated and most ships could easily be shrunk in every dimension by 50-70% (an eight fold reduction in volume, or more).
 
All the ships and equipment in Elite have extremely low densities, for whatever reason. We are talking lightly built aircraft levels at the low-end, decreasing to barely more than rigid airship levels at the high-end. That Federal Corvette in the image above has a mass of under 2000 tons in a full combat fit...the Yamato, with lesser volume, is a ~70,000 ton vessel. One of the main gun turrets on the Yamato weighs almost as much as a whole Federal Corvette.

I feel the linear scales are needlessly inflated and most ships could easily be shrunk in every dimension by 50-70% (an eight fold reduction in volume, or more).

The issue is that for a similar propellant charge we should be seeing dramatically higher projectile velocities if we were compressing the power of a 16 inch battleship gun into a 16 ton weapon mount firing smaller projectiles. It should fire those projectiles at dramatically higher speeds and yet the approximately 20 kg projectiles from the class 4 cannon are only travelling at 750 m/s. It isn't scaling up anywhere near battleship-level firepower, it's just the visual size that is getting skewed out of proportion for the class 4 cannon.

If we look at it the opposite way and bring the mass up across the board for all ship components to reach higher ship densities, then the smaller guns would weigh far too much for their visual sizes and we get the opposite problem. Essentially they managed reasonable size/weight scaling for weapons up to around class 3, then it goes off the scale noticeably for the class 4 weapons. We have specific numbers for projectile weights and total gun weights which gives us hard upper limits on the maximum kinetic energy the guns can generate and there is only so much these numbers can change even if we make favorable assumptions for what the ammunition should weigh.
 
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All the ships and equipment in Elite have extremely low densities, for whatever reason. We are talking lightly built aircraft levels at the low-end, decreasing to barely more than rigid airship levels at the high-end. That Federal Corvette in the image above has a mass of under 2000 tons in a full combat fit...the Yamato, with lesser volume, is a ~70,000 ton vessel. One of the main gun turrets on the Yamato weighs almost as much as a whole Federal Corvette.

I feel the linear scales are needlessly inflated and most ships could easily be shrunk in every dimension by 50-70% (an eight fold reduction in volume, or more).

Looking at their models, I think there's a very strong probability that most ships were originally designed with a smaller scale in mind. My guess would be that the weights were settled on during the 'pre enlargement' era and never scaled up when the decision was made to make ships larger across the board.
 
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Looking at their models, I think there's a very strong probability that most ships were originally designed with a smaller scale in mind. My guess would be that the weights were settled on during the 'pre enlargement' era and never scaled up when the decision was made to make ships larger across the board.

I'm inclined to agree. The seats in many ships seem quite small in comparison to the rest of the cockpit.
 
There's another consideration regarding size/density that we might want to think about. (cool analysis, btw, Devari) and that is that we already know that ED materials are less dense for equivalent strength than anything we are familiar with in current engineering and ordnance design. However, if the increase in strength is less than we have supposed, might not the guns be made bigger (albeit lighter) to have a longer barrel achieving a similar muzzle velocity with a slower-burning (and therefore lower heat and lower pressure) propellant?
 
The issue is that for a similar propellant charge we should be seeing dramatically higher projectile velocities if we were compressing the power of a 16 inch battleship gun into a 16 ton weapon mount firing smaller projectiles. It should fire those projectiles at dramatically higher speeds and yet the approximately 20 kg projectiles from the class 4 cannon are only travelling at 750 m/s. It isn't scaling up anywhere near battleship-level firepower, it's just the visual size that is getting skewed out of proportion for the class 4 cannon.

If we look at it the opposite way and bring the mass up across the board for all ship components to reach higher ship densities, then the smaller guns would weigh far too much for their visual sizes and we get the opposite problem. Essentially they managed reasonable size/weight scaling for weapons up to around class 3, then it goes off the scale noticeably for the class 4 weapons. We have specific numbers for projectile weights and total gun weights which gives us hard upper limits on the maximum kinetic energy the guns can generate and there is only so much these numbers can change even if we make favorable assumptions for what the ammunition should weigh.

1. All said before. All weights are skewed toward the lighter side.
2. Munitions are never counted in with the gun weight, not with naval guns, not with tank guns, so why are you counting the weight of the munitions?
3. Munitions are demonstrated to have no wieght in ED. So you're counting something in that the game is not counting in at all. Munitions in ED are weightless.
4. The muzzle velocity of a battleshoip gun is not that much higher. Around 800-850 m/s, and in space you don't have to cope with air friction or gravity.

Weight is a bad way to compare ED's guns to contemporary guns as FD takes it's biggest artistic licence in the mass and weight dpeartment.
I mean how much sense does it make to have a gun that is as big as a battleship gun, but fires Aluminium (or something) shells for lesser effect. I don't think 3lk scientists have forgotten about simple ol Newton.
 
1. All said before. All weights are skewed toward the lighter side.
2. Munitions are never counted in with the gun weight, not with naval guns, not with tank guns, so why are you counting the weight of the munitions?
3. Munitions are demonstrated to have no wieght in ED. So you're counting something in that the game is not counting in at all. Munitions in ED are weightless.
4. The muzzle velocity of a battleshoip gun is not that much higher. Around 800-850 m/s, and in space you don't have to cope with air friction or gravity.

Weight is a bad way to compare ED's guns to contemporary guns as FD takes it's biggest artistic licence in the mass and weight dpeartment.
I mean how much sense does it make to have a gun that is as big as a battleship gun, but fires Aluminium (or something) shells for lesser effect. I don't think 3lk scientists have forgotten about simple ol Newton.

I think the real issue is that we're trying to analyse something that hasn't had much thought put into it beyond balancing for gameplay purposes. There's no science being applied to the design of the projectile weapons in ED so attempting to analyse their performance scientifically is pointless. Their weight and size is determined by their class and their damage output is dictated by decisions based around balance.
 
You can do similar calculations for class 3 and class 4 multicannons, making their calibres equivalent to approximately 40 mm or 50 mm rounds. Anything larger would need to be more than double the projectile mass with each increase in weight and we know that the projectile mass should approximately double with each increase in size category. Here's a good visual comparison of the difference between 20 mm Vulcan rounds and 30 mm GAU-8 Avenger rounds, you can extrapolate that up to 40 mm and 50 mm rounds and that is about the limit for the larger multicannons in Elite if we are limited by doubling the projectile weight with each increase in multicannon class:

I like your mathematical approach to this. But I'm afraid there are just too many variables in the next 1000+ years to be able to account for everything.

I have a class 4 multi-cannon on my multi-role Anaconda that only weighs 1.86T and in addition to that its DPS has increased by about 3%. Thanks engineering! :)

I want to be completely immersed.. But I think at some point it becomes "just a game." Especially when it comes to scale. There are soooo many things in E: D that don't make sense in terms of scale.
 
2. Munitions are never counted in with the gun weight, not with naval guns, not with tank guns, so why are you counting the weight of the munitions?

Because that's the only place the ammunition could be. There are also exceptions to your statement...gun pods for example, which are better analogs to ED weapons than most other comparisons because of their modularity.

3. Munitions are demonstrated to have no wieght in ED. So you're counting something in that the game is not counting in at all. Munitions in ED are weightless.

Which is impossible.

No mass equals no energy and no energy means no damage.

Their weight and size is determined by their class and their damage output is dictated by decisions based around balance.

Yes.

But I'm afraid there are just too many variables in the next 1000+ years to be able to account for everything.

The same physics has governed projectiles since shortly after the formation of the universe. There is no reason to expect fundamental laws of motion to change in the next 1200 years.

There are soooo many things in E: D that don't make sense in terms of scale.

But they so easily could.
 
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