Can Thargoids not be a monolithic entity?

[ratchet5000]

We humans are split into many groups - 7 billion people, 190+ countries, and an untold number of even smaller groups - political parties, clubs, organizations, etc. Same with the humans (and actual human players) in the Elite universe, from the Federation down to HIP XXXXX Progressive Party, Lakon Corporation, Somewhere Orbital, to player groups like Mobius, or a PVP group etc. Each of which have their own motivations and interests.

So why is ET in sci fi usually portrayed as monolithic beings, where everyone of their species believes the same thing and acts the same way? (later Star Trek episodes are welcome exceptions in the case of Klingons/Cardassians for example).

It would be refreshing and interesting to see a portrayal of Thargoids as an ideologically diverse society.
Here are some off the cuff suggestions about the more major political divisions within Thargoid society (I would still hope for even smaller political divisions, like Brzzzt Ezazzzt (my best attempt at typing Thargoid) Party for each of their systems or similar):
1. Perhaps the most major one: Reconcile with Humans over how we (or rather the Alliance and the player protagonist in Elite 3) saved their race from the Mycoid virus, or take retribution for it as we humans were also responsible for creating the virus in the first place (via a joint Federation/Empire INRA, read up on Thargoid lore from the previous games here). Hopefully how the human-thargoid war was first started in the first game could be revealed alongside.
2. According to the lore of the original Elite, Thargoids have a hive mind. There could be Thargoids that are more "conservative" and prefer the traditional hive mind structured society, whereas the "liberal" faction that promotes Thargoids living as individuals in a society outside of the hivemind.

 

[Vasco Sapien]

2. According to the lore of the original Elite, Thargoids have a hive mind.

Maybe, The Thargoids are what the guardians became.. connected with the same A.I bridged consciousness we read about in the Ruin data archives.

We read about a splinter group (religious) which break away from the main Guardian population because of this technology.

I find it hard to discount the guardian data as having nothing to do with what is to come.

 

[Vasious]

Even if they are a Hive Mind, what effects would travelling light years from Origin have?
Would Separate hive minds develop?

What of the Oresrians and the Thargoids?
Are they two factions of the same species?

But the Key thing is, nothing has presented the Thargoids being a monolithic culture, and as noted above in Vasco's post, the Guardians we know suffered from Civil War and different factions, so we already have a Xenos that is not following the "Planet of Hats"

 

[krylite]

I'm ok with the thargoids being more monolithic. There are the guardians and Braben said the thargoids are just the first aliens at large to be introduced. I'd rather see how the current fractious state of humanity holds up to the unified thargoid threat and whether it changes the politics and powerplay of the ED galaxy in some significant way.

 

[Smecca is BMFE]

Give it up. Hippy Thargoids aren't going to be a thing. And they don't care about the environment either.

They probably got so awesome by NOT being nice. EVER.

 

[crushdepth]

We've been told for a very long time now that they aren't monolithic - there may be factions, types, whatever you want to call them.

 

[Sapyx]

So why is ET in sci fi usually portrayed as monolithic beings, where everyone of their species believes the same thing and acts the same way? (later Star Trek episodes are welcome exceptions in the case of Klingons/Cardassians for example).

Standard sci-fi trope. I believe the logic goes something like as follows:

We humans only have cultural and ideological differences because we're still a young, inexperienced species that doesn't know any better. An ancient, technologically advanced species should have tried everything by know, so they know from their own history what works and what doesn't, so would have long ago settled into a "rut" of whatever form of government, ideology etc works best for them.

2. According to the lore of the original Elite, Thargoids have a hive mind. There could be Thargoids that are more "conservative" and prefer the traditional hive mind structured society, whereas the "liberal" faction that promotes Thargoids living as individuals in a society outside of the hivemind.

For a truly eusocial (hive-mind) species, individualism is not a difference of opinion that should be celebrated and respected; it is a cancer that will be instinctively expunged with extreme prejudice. If individualism is a prominent minority in Thargoid society, powerful enough to defend itself from extermination and form its own rival government to make contact with other species, then the species isn't truly eusocial after all.

 

[BlackSpaceCowboy]

Give it up. Hippy Thargoids aren't going to be a thing. And they don't care about the environment either.

They probably got so awesome by NOT being nice. EVER.

You're talking about the Trugoids. That species died because they didn't care about the environment.

I agree with the OP. It would be much cooler if Thargoids were like Klingons or Romulans with personalities. That makes it possible to have interesting stories. If your villain is a boring hive mind, you'll end up with a boring story. But I don't expect anything creative or interesting from Frontier. The 1980's called, they want their gameplay back.

 

[h347h]

You're talking about the Trugoids. That species died because they didn't care about the environment.

I agree with the OP. It would be much cooler if Thargoids were like Klingons or Romulans with personalities. That makes it possible to have interesting stories. If your villain is a boring hive mind, you'll end up with a boring story. But I don't expect anything creative or interesting from Frontier. The 1980's called, they want their gameplay back.

Klingons and Romulans are just stereotypes of humans packaged as a species. Star Trek was really big on that to the point some people think Ferengi are anti semitic.

Also they come off a lot like space orcs and space elves. That isn't that interesting.

 

[ShinyDewott]

The 'Goids are not monolithic according to lore. We know their species is split into 2 or more factions, and the Oresrians are a peaceful faction of them, even though they are the same species as the warlike ones.

 

[Sapyx]

Are the Oresrians in ED lore, or have they been retconned out like all the other aliens in the original Elite universe?

To the best of my knowledge, in ED lore we have Thargoids (the aggressive ones), and that's it.

Even if they are a Hive Mind, what effects would travelling light years from Origin have?
Would Separate hive minds develop?

That depends on exactly how a "hive mind" operates, the mechanism it uses to keep and maintain control. If it controls chemically (like bees and ants) or electromagnetically (like Human 21st century combat drones) then yes, lightyear-distances would require the partitioning of the Hive into autonomous pieces.

If, however, the Thargoids communicate using some kind of naturally-occurring FTL means of communication (like the Humans have with Galnet) then a pan-galactic universal mind is entirely possible.

 

[Skyjack]

Oresrian hive isn't 'peaceful', it's just not the same entity as the militaristic Klaxian hive GalCop ran into. Imo they're just that, factions, embroiled in mutual war but not limited to violence

 

[Tarman]

Standard sci-fi trope. I believe the logic goes something like as follows:

We humans only have cultural and ideological differences because we're still a young, inexperienced species that doesn't know any better. An ancient, technologically advanced species should have tried everything by know, so they know from their own history what works and what doesn't, so would have long ago settled into a "rut" of whatever form of government, ideology etc works best for them.



For a truly eusocial (hive-mind) species, individualism is not a difference of opinion that should be celebrated and respected; it is a cancer that will be instinctively expunged with extreme prejudice. If individualism is a prominent minority in Thargoid society, powerful enough to defend itself from extermination and form its own rival government to make contact with other species, then the species isn't truly eusocial after all.

I think it's even easier to explain than that; human storytelling. Sentient aliens are one of the largest and most easily created and used collections of stand-ins for basically any type of actual human dynamic or social concept you want to explore, and with the out of "welp, aliens" if they do something that's beyond most human mores or just plain weird. It's a little easier to stretch the human boundaries into odd shapes or even break them if some alien is wearing them.

Human characters usually have less of a pass when doing inhuman things without better backstory to take them so far from baseline, because we already know how humans generally behave and will always compare humans to actual humans, where an alien character baseline is more easily set by the story concept rather than direct IRL comparisons. I remember reading a story once where an exogeologist had a species-crush on some aliens they were working with till she found out they were non-violent cannibals, who thought that burial was extremely disrespectful, mean-spirited and wasteful.

Star Trek is an easily-recognized version of the aliens-is-peoplesx1000 effect as many different races reflect specific human values or belief sets taken to certain extremes to aid in exploring ideas in the stories. This pool of aliens allowed OG Star Trek to broadcast on public TV about fun stuff like superpower proxy war and racism, but with spacemen so it was easier to convey and digest the messages.

 

[h347h]

Are the Oresrians in ED lore, or have they been retconned out like all the other aliens in the original Elite universe?

To the best of my knowledge, in ED lore we have Thargoids (the aggressive ones), and that's it.



That depends on exactly how a "hive mind" operates, the mechanism it uses to keep and maintain control. If it controls chemically (like bees and ants) or electromagnetically (like Human 21st century combat drones) then yes, lightyear-distances would require the partitioning of the Hive into autonomous pieces.

If, however, the Thargoids communicate using some kind of naturally-occurring FTL means of communication (like the Humans have with Galnet) then a pan-galactic universal mind is entirely possible.

Sadly only FD truly knows for sure and I'm 90% sure they are not going to set things in stone because it will allow them to tell the story with out handcuffs of canon. Also there could be legal IP reasons for not using every thing from past Elite games.

You pretty much have to change your mind set to "if it isn't in galnet, in game, or part​ of promotions it isn't canon yet" and just assume everything else was "legends" that could have been distorted over time.

 

[Moritasgus]

Out of the Darkness official ED novel mentions the Thargoid civil war and is set 25(?) years before the launch of the game.
I forget the faction names etc and don't have time right now to look it up.

Probably an appropriate read for the current announcement.

 

[ratchet5000]

We've been told for a very long time now that they aren't monolithic - there may be factions, types, whatever you want to call them.

Source?

Standard sci-fi trope. I believe the logic goes something like as follows:

We humans only have cultural and ideological differences because we're still a young, inexperienced species that doesn't know any better. An ancient, technologically advanced species should have tried everything by know, so they know from their own history what works and what doesn't, so would have long ago settled into a "rut" of whatever form of government, ideology etc works best for them.

For a truly eusocial (hive-mind) species, individualism is not a difference of opinion that should be celebrated and respected; it is a cancer that will be instinctively expunged with extreme prejudice. If individualism is a prominent minority in Thargoid society, powerful enough to defend itself from extermination and form its own rival government to make contact with other species, then the species isn't truly eusocial after all.

What if there isn't a "best" culture or ideology, only ones that benefit different groups of people? "Best" being of course, subjective.

Reality isn't a zero sum game. There is no certainty - everything is in shades of gray. A society isn't a 100% hive mind nor 100% individualistic, only of shades in between, not to mention the definition of "hive mind" has tinges of subjectivity.

But the Key thing is, nothing has presented the Thargoids being a monolithic culture, and as noted above in Vasco's post, the Guardians we know suffered from Civil War and different factions, so we already have a Xenos that is not following the "Planet of Hats"

And true, but I am pointing out that this is an often overlooked aspect of sci fi, due to budget constraints or simply due to most alien races in pop culture being monolithic.

 

[Pyrobee]

Out of the Darkness official ED novel mentions the Thargoid civil war and is set 25(?) years before the launch of the game.
I forget the faction names etc and don't have time right now to look it up.

Probably an appropriate read for the current announcement.

Licenses to wite 'official' ED novels are easy to get. You just have to give FD money.