Can we get an explanation of the concept behind ship design?

[StuPer]

Hello FD team,
Can we as players get an understanding of the design concept behind ships and their roles... At the moment and I guess for the foreseeable future the greatest level of angst and anger on the forums is around what ship should be able to do what. Sadly it seems to me ED is heading the same way of most multi-player games, and the game is starting to be balanced around 1v1 PvP, as opposed to any real world analogy.

I understand the role of freighters and all of them from the Hauler/Transit Van to the T9/Double Bogey Semi-Trailer are clear in their roles and their behaviour is predictable and therefore acceptable.. I have not seen anyone argue a T9 should have better firepower, or superior maneuverability.
The problem is in fighting and multi-role ships, as currently size/mass, cost, running costs, seem to have only marginal bearing on abilities. This leading to a situation where small ships are given the opportunity to out shine (comparatively) larger ships for a much, much lower risk/penalty.

So my question is this, is current fighting/multi-role ship design based on any real world analog such as an Air Force profile or Navy profile, or is it simply 'what feels right'?

I am an older gamer and I need to feel that there is some rationale behind a change process, in the hope it simply is not listening to those that scream the loudest. If there is a real world analogy I can point to and say that makes sense when changes are made I will be happy, it will explain to me in terms that make sense, and I will be less likely to get irritated like I am at present over the changes to the Python, which do seem to be as a result of forum complaints from small ship pilots.
On that note I would like to know why the Viper is not a glass cannon?, the ability to carry the weaponry it can versus its defensive ability seems very overpowered and is obviously the reason the majority of PvP players are flying it. It is also cheap to run and repair, and while it maybe a dedicated fighter, in any military parallel those roles are filled by hardware that has little defenses and relies on aggression to achieve its goal, but if it comes under fire usually goes down very fast, a bit like the current Eagle.

Anyway I digress, I would simply like an understanding of the design map, and thinking behind ship design, please give an old codger some peace, and hope for the future.
Regards
StuPer

 

[Zvanya]

At the moment and I guess for the foreseeable future the greatest level of angst and anger on the forums is around what ship should be able to do what.

I haven't really seen that. Maybe I'm just being obtuse.

 

[Patrick_68000]

I'll buy without hesitation a beautiful bound book with glazed paper and containing all the spaceships with the drawings, and the descriptions very detailed

 

[Flyinpiranha]

My understanding of ship balance; If a Viper can beat it, it's fine. If a Viper can't beat it, it needs to be changed.

 

[xDreadnoughtx]

My understanding of ship balance; If a Viper can beat it, it's fine. If a Viper can't beat it, it needs to be changed.

Well, maybe not quite, but there is an increasing amount of annoying background hum from certain users of the forum regarding the viper and it's supposed need for a polish and buff.

FD are equal to this. Of that I am confident. They have come this far and will not throw their lot in with any one particular crowd now.

Edit - I added the word "any" to the last sentence. Get me?

 

[DuQuesne]

What I'm loving about ED, and what I believe/hope is at the core of Frontier's ship design concept is that for whatever you want to do, whatever stage you're at, there isn't one single, must-use, obvious choice.

Whilst I don't particularly believe that the python is overpowered, it does stands out as the exception. Once you've got the credits to have a python kitted to your taste, there's too few reasons to ever fly anything else.

As such, I can understand Frontier's thoughts on 'adjusting' it (not going to use the n word). Personally though, I'd prefer if said adjustments came with a new alternative high-end, medium size ship to add the 'choice' element back in. Keep the python as the ultimate combat ship it should be, but add a 'trader with teeth' (tiger please?) For those who want that style of play.

 

[Flyinpiranha]

Well, maybe not quite, but there is an increasing amount of annoying background hum from certain users of the forum regarding the viper and it's supposed need for a polish and buff.

FD are equal to this. Of that I am confident. They have come this far and will not throw their lot in with any one particular crowd now.

Edit - I added the word "any" to the last sentence. Get me?

Eh, we can hope. I thought the point of the game was to get bigger, badder ships, like a racing sim or something but in space. I didn't realize it would be "PVP balanced" around 1v1 encounters or that the fact one ship is better than another it would be brought down.

I mean this with all honesty ... what happens when a ship that is better than the Viper in every way comes out? Or is that not even a possibility? I get that maybe the Python was great at ALL things, but so what? People with enough credits to buy it will just buy the one thing BEST at trading and the one thing BEST at combat. I don't see the reasoning behind nerfing a super expensive ship.

I didn't realizes the game would ultimately be balanced around the PVP aspect honestly, so I'm a lot less "hopeful" as to where the game is going. I've seen the developer explanations and they all just say in different words "it was too good" ... so there will never be a ship as good as the Python in the game? There will never be something better than the Viper at combat? I don't get it, I'll fully admit that. I may have thought this was a different game, one where I start in a Yugo and end up in a Ferrari, but it seems that 'PVP balance' is more important. I would say buff AI and make encounters more difficult if Pythons were "that great" but that wouldn't solve the 1v1 PVP aspect, which seems to be the main reason the ship was brought down. "It fought like a Viper but with more guns" ... so? A Porsche does EVERYTHING better than a Miata except for the running costs. But, like I said, I guess I had no idea what the "Vision" was for the game. This Python nerf (I will use that word) basically tells me that they are focused on the PVP aspect of the game more-so than the PVE aspect.

 

[xDreadnoughtx]

What I'm loving about ED, and what I believe/hope is at the core of Frontier's ship design concept is that for whatever you want to do, whatever stage you're at, there isn't one single, must-use, obvious choice.

Whilst I don't particularly believe that the python is overpowered, it does stands out as the exception. Once you've got the credits to have a python kitted to your taste, there's too few reasons to ever fly anything else.

As such, I can understand Frontier's thoughts on 'adjusting' it (not going to use the n word). Personally though, I'd prefer if said adjustments came with a new alternative high-end, medium size ship to add the 'choice' element back in. Keep the python as the ultimate combat ship it should be, but add a 'trader with teeth' (tiger please?) For those who want that style of play.

It was one of the things that kept me playing FFE for so long. I found myself swapping between ships quite regularly. Combat and travel - asp. Trade and travel - python or imperial trader. I also spent a lot of time in the courier, boa, constrictor, clipper (of course) etc.

There was a reason to use different ships.

Now with online? It causes an issue, because you feel you might need to be in the most competitive or survivable or killer ship.

Balancing is going to be a nightmare, and by that I catagorically do not think we will see convergence, where all is grey pap.

Cheers

 

[Ixnatifual]

Personally I think every ship should have its advantages and disadvantages. There shouldn't be just one ship that's the best at a role that everyone in that role flies. I prefer games where you have more options. That doesn't necessarily mean a Viper should be equal to a Python in a 1v1 PvP fight. But it could mean a skilled Viper pilot could wreck an unskilled Python pilot, or that a Viper is more suited for certain tasks, such as interception. Whereas a Python may be better at dealing brutal death on a battlefield through sheer power.

 

[Comrade Napoleon]

My understanding of ship balance; If a Viper can beat it, it's fine. If a Viper can't beat it, it needs to be changed.

I ,tend to think you have got a point with your comment. + Rep
Unfortunatel I also , having read comments from FD staff in various threads, have come to the conclusion that getting a Python was a mistake. Its not worth the hazzle with the incoming 'adjustments' . Everything is concentrated Around the Viper and Cobra, and how they perform in Combat. As it is now it is to costly even Interdicting a cobra or Viper, if you actually succeed , it runs of before you can bring your weapons to bear.
A Viper interdicting a Python, is dangerous to the Python and not to the Viper, Its speed sees to that.
I tend also to agree with OP, Heavy ships have no real role to play, at least not in PVP.
I think the Python will end up as a glorified Hauler.

Cheers Cmdr's

 

[m4th3m4t1c14n]

Eh, we can hope. I thought the point of the game was to get bigger, badder ships, like a racing sim or something but in space. I didn't realize it would be "PVP balanced" around 1v1 encounters or that the fact one ship is better than another it would be brought down.

I mean this with all honesty ... what happens when a ship that is better than the Viper in every way comes out? Or is that not even a possibility? I get that maybe the Python was great at ALL things, but so what? People with enough credits to buy it will just buy the one thing BEST at trading and the one thing BEST at combat. I don't see the reasoning behind nerfing a super expensive ship.

I didn't realizes the game would ultimately be balanced around the PVP aspect honestly, so I'm a lot less "hopeful" as to where the game is going. I've seen the developer explanations and they all just say in different words "it was too good" ... so there will never be a ship as good as the Python in the game? There will never be something better than the Viper at combat? I don't get it, I'll fully admit that. I may have thought this was a different game, one where I start in a Yugo and end up in a Ferrari, but it seems that 'PVP balance' is more important. I would say buff AI and make encounters more difficult if Pythons were "that great" but that wouldn't solve the 1v1 PVP aspect, which seems to be the main reason the ship was brought down. "It fought like a Viper but with more guns" ... so? A Porsche does EVERYTHING better than a Miata except for the running costs. But, like I said, I guess I had no idea what the "Vision" was for the game. This Python nerf (I will use that word) basically tells me that they are focused on the PVP aspect of the game more-so than the PVE aspect.

I absolutely agree. I had hoped that I would be able to work my way into a ship that a Viper would be foolish to engage one-on-one. With the Python nerf, it will be quite the opposite. Sure, I will still be very likely able to kill the Viper. Then I can make for the nearest starbase for $1.5 million in repairs, while the Viper pilot pays $10 thousand and is on his way to finish me off. In this scenario, it would be foolish for the Python to engage a Viper.

 

[dracotonisamond]

this precedent has me very worried and to be honest, regretting my purchase.
by nerfing the python that badly it says that big ships will never be a threat to ships like the viper and cobra.

i was hopeful that this game wouldn't fall prey to the he-who-whines-loudest syndrome of nerfs.

 

[StuPer]

Eh, we can hope. I thought the point of the game was to get bigger, badder ships, like a racing sim or something but in space. I didn't realize it would be "PVP balanced" around 1v1 encounters or that the fact one ship is better than another it would be brought down.

I mean this with all honesty ... what happens when a ship that is better than the Viper in every way comes out? Or is that not even a possibility? I get that maybe the Python was great at ALL things, but so what? People with enough credits to buy it will just buy the one thing BEST at trading and the one thing BEST at combat. I don't see the reasoning behind nerfing a super expensive ship.

I didn't realizes the game would ultimately be balanced around the PVP aspect honestly, so I'm a lot less "hopeful" as to where the game is going. I've seen the developer explanations and they all just say in different words "it was too good" ... so there will never be a ship as good as the Python in the game? There will never be something better than the Viper at combat? I don't get it, I'll fully admit that. I may have thought this was a different game, one where I start in a Yugo and end up in a Ferrari, but it seems that 'PVP balance' is more important. I would say buff AI and make encounters more difficult if Pythons were "that great" but that wouldn't solve the 1v1 PVP aspect, which seems to be the main reason the ship was brought down. "It fought like a Viper but with more guns" ... so? A Porsche does EVERYTHING better than a Miata except for the running costs. But, like I said, I guess I had no idea what the "Vision" was for the game. This Python nerf (I will use that word) basically tells me that they are focused on the PVP aspect of the game more-so than the PVE aspect.

I am pretty much with you on this, honestly what is the point of working towards, at great time and tedium, a 'better' ship if it will only be allowed to perform in relation to ships cheaper to buy, run, and repair. But even then if there was some explanation around design and decisions to change ship capabilies. I mean 'balance' is just a word, balanced for what, against what?
Regards
StuPer

 

[Valethar]

Why would you base starship design on atmosphere only aircraft? You end up shackling your design team/process to a narrowly defined model that leaves no room for imagination or innovation.

The Python needed a balance pass. The only people that don't think so are the ones that got used to an I-win button ship. Nothing that big should be that agile. I flew one in Beta, and while I loved the ability to pretty much take on anyone with it, it was definitely out of balance with that combination of maneuverability, hardpoints and convergence zone. It's substantially larger than the Cobra or Asp, has more firepower, more cargo capacity, better armor, and the same maneuverability rating. Face it, it needed to be toned down a little.

 

[Kremator]

What some people are forgetting is the Python is SIGNIFICANTLY more expensive. What planet are you guys on when you can twink out a Viper for 5 mill but the same twink for a Python can cost >151 mill ???

Should a 5 mill Viper beat a 151 mill Python? With two equally adept pilots no.

 

[Captain Breton]

Hello FD team,
Can we as players get an understanding of the design concept behind ships and their roles... At the moment and I guess for the foreseeable future the greatest level of angst and anger on the forums is around what ship should be able to do what. Sadly it seems to me ED is heading the same way of most multi-player games, and the game is starting to be balanced around 1v1 PvP, as opposed to any real world analogy.

I understand the role of freighters and all of them from the Hauler/Transit Van to the T9/Double Bogey Semi-Trailer are clear in their roles and their behaviour is predictable and therefore acceptable.. I have not seen anyone argue a T9 should have better firepower, or superior maneuverability.
The problem is in fighting and multi-role ships, as currently size/mass, cost, running costs, seem to have only marginal bearing on abilities. This leading to a situation where small ships are given the opportunity to out shine (comparatively) larger ships for a much, much lower risk/penalty.

So my question is this, is current fighting/multi-role ship design based on any real world analog such as an Air Force profile or Navy profile, or is it simply 'what feels right'?

I am an older gamer and I need to feel that there is some rationale behind a change process, in the hope it simply is not listening to those that scream the loudest. If there is a real world analogy I can point to and say that makes sense when changes are made I will be happy, it will explain to me in terms that make sense, and I will be less likely to get irritated like I am at present over the changes to the Python, which do seem to be as a result of forum complaints from small ship pilots.
On that note I would like to know why the Viper is not a glass cannon?, the ability to carry the weaponry it can versus its defensive ability seems very overpowered and is obviously the reason the majority of PvP players are flying it. It is also cheap to run and repair, and while it maybe a dedicated fighter, in any military parallel those roles are filled by hardware that has little defenses and relies on aggression to achieve its goal, but if it comes under fire usually goes down very fast, a bit like the current Eagle.

Anyway I digress, I would simply like an understanding of the design map, and thinking behind ship design, please give an old codger some peace, and hope for the future.
Regards
StuPer

Having skimmed that wall of Words briefly ...my first thought would be, that the ships are made to be reckognizable from the classic ship-designs in Elite 1 , 2 and 3

 

[StuPer]

Why would you base starship design on atmosphere only aircraft? You end up shackling your design team/process to a narrowly defined model that leaves no room for imagination or innovation.

The Python needed a balance pass. The only people that don't think so are the ones that got used to an I-win button ship. Nothing that big should be that agile. I flew one in Beta, and while I loved the ability to pretty much take on anyone with it, it was definitely out of balance with that combination of maneuverability, hardpoints and convergence zone. It's substantially larger than the Cobra or Asp, has more firepower, more cargo capacity, better armor, and the same maneuverability rating. Face it, it needed to be toned down a little.

You know I'm not necessarily disagreeing with you, but I would like to have some idea where design changes come from for all ships. While the Python may well be a little overpowered, the Viper is waay out of whack for price and even role, where as the Anaconda I feel needs a serious buff to reflect its price, running costs and capabilities.

Even if you don't base design off 'atmosphere only craft' why not the simple universal concept that the more money and effort you plough into something you have a right to expect it to perform better than something vastly cheaper. In any walk of life this is true except perhaps personal fitness.

 

[Flyinpiranha]

Why would you base starship design on atmosphere only aircraft? You end up shackling your design team/process to a narrowly defined model that leaves no room for imagination or innovation.

The Python needed a balance pass. The only people that don't think so are the ones that got used to an I-win button ship. Nothing that big should be that agile. I flew one in Beta, and while I loved the ability to pretty much take on anyone with it, it was definitely out of balance with that combination of maneuverability, hardpoints and convergence zone. It's substantially larger than the Cobra or Asp, has more firepower, more cargo capacity, better armor, and the same maneuverability rating. Face it, it needed to be toned down a little.

If it needed to be "toned down", does that mean we will never see a better ship than the Python? Everything is just going to be outfits I can dress up in? That's the part I don't understand. Reading about this game and following it for a couple months before actually paying $75 for a beta+game, my expectation was that bigger badder ships would be in the universe, if you see one, you high tail it out and find a fight you stand a chance with until you are in the seat of that bigger badder ship. But now it seems that the Viper is the 100% ship, anything above that will be toned down, anything below that may be toned up. What about trading? Why does a T7 have DOUBLE the amount of space of a T6? What about the Type 9? Isn't that 'unfair' to everybody grinding away in a Cobra?

But, the forum is already filling up with terms like "PVP Balance" and "overpowered" and "nerf" so this is basically just another PVP MMO with some neat PVE elements. It doesn't seem like "my story" anymore because other people are affecting "my story" with cries of 1v1 imbalance.

 

[krysohmyz]

Oh dear. It seems the word "nerf" (btw. I am instinctively deploying hardpoints when I see it) will soon beat the word "wipe" from beta forums in per day occurence.

My view on the situation is this:

The ships are pretty balanced. There is something for everybody and the game DOES favour skill before equipment.
But if someone slaved for weeks and worked towards his/her dream and now has got a new, shiny, 150M or more worth ship, don't they deserve to feel at least a little godly in her?

I know that this won't be exactly good parable and I'll get my ass kicked, but would you, in WOW, for instance, cry for "nerfing" lvl90 equipment, because such character can insta-kill someone with lvl 20, and "it doesn't seem fair" to you?

 

[anikaiful]

-.- just why... "balance this, balance that"... balance ruins games left and right -.- ... stop balancing things!