Can we please stop comparing Zoo Tycoon games to Planet Zoo

[PeppyPepp]

We have had two DLCs for Planet Zoo and every time there seems to be a heated discussion around the quality of the DLCs compared to full on expansion packs of ZT games.

Zoo Tycoon was a fantastic game and so was the sequel. But these games are 20 (ish) years old. The gaming industry and technology have made a huge leap in the meantime. The DLC model of providing additional content is a standard practice nowadays. I am a little bit shocked that so many people are upset and surprised that we have yet another DLC which follows the same model. The market is bursting with so many games that it's only understandable that companies release small dosage of content every few months to keep their games alive. And Frontier couldn't have picked a better time for the SA DLC. The game needed a bit of fresh air and the pack is fantastic, in my humble opinion.

I notice a severe lack of patience. Quality takes time and what Planet Zoo offers is a quality game. I read complaints that it took them "4 months to only give us 5 animals". It's so much more deeper than that. I believe the reason we "only" get 4 animals per pack is because a) they certainly have a roadmap and are sticking to the plan, b) it takes a lot of work to make them and everything related to them, c) it keeps their game alive. I prefer it this way because it breathes new life into the game every few months. It's unrealistic they would take a whole year and then give us an expansion pack. And it's probably not profitable.

We cannot expect a modern company in 2020 to follow the same business model than the one in 2000, especially not in such a fast paced and ever changing environment that is the gaming industry.

I just want to end this post by saying that I definitely respect each and everyone's opinion and I think it's important that Frontier sees ALL the feedback, but it's just simply unrealistic to have such demands. I realize there will always be the comparison because Planet Zoo really feels like a worthy successor to ZT games, but in regards to providing addition content I just don't think there's anything to compare. These are just simply different times.

Anyway, stay safe everybody and see you on the stream today!

 

[Fortunanovesia]

they certainly have a roadmap and are sticking to the plan

I already recommended it in another thread: I think it would be a good idea to show the community something kinda roadmap, to let us know whats planned with the game and make us hype for the game again (tbh, after announcing the update and the new DLC im starting to get kinda hyped again for next tuesday).

Not in detail, but just to show us, what plans there are for the future.

 

[PeppyPepp]

I already recommended it in another thread: I think it would be a good idea to show the community something kinda roadmap, to let us know whats planned with the game and make us hype for the game again (tbh, after announcing the update and the new DLC im starting to get kinda hyped again for next tuesday).

Not in detail, but just to show us, what plans there are for the future.

Oh yeah, I've read your thread. Oh absolutely! It would be very welcomed, just a rough plan of what we can expect. I know a lot of companies do that. But personally I'm good either way. When new stuff comes, it comes.

I agree, I'm also very excited for Tuesday. The free update we're going to get looks great and it will address a lot of issues and we get some freebies.

 

[LN]

I'm fine with the comparisons. It keeps reminding me times are different and things where always different in the past.
As long as the world keeps spinning all is fine.

I just don't get it that such comparisons need to pop up with every discussion.

 

[Swjosdotschka]

It's also a bit easy to assume that this pack took four month of time. It didn't, I'm quite sure of that. It took longer. It was planned since the base game, I'm sure, and developed parallel. (hence the monkey and jaguar decoration right from the beginning). I know from other companies that they work on base game and at least two dlcs parallel.

My only problem with the mini dlcs is, that they aren't really marketed as mini-dlcs. If we had 5 Anden species and an Anden Pack it would be different than having a south america pack with just 5 animals.

A slight road map for the future of the game would actually change the discussion dramatically. If we knew that, for example, species DLCs (new world monkey for example) of the same size would come alongside the continent packs, it would change how people look at the south american dlc.

I'm not on team "too pricey" nor "too soon". Regular DLCs mean regular income for the game, meaning a better support. Things like the (awesome) big free update wouldn't be possible without continuing money comming in. And indeed, comparision do not make sense with this topic.
I'd love bigger games, but am also fine with smaller every 3 month. What I wish for is a more narrowed down animal theme so that we will have more DLCs in the end, but some that are better fleshed out and feel balanced and round. Like one real piece of cake and not crumbles from 5 different straw-berrie ones. Would all be strawberrie, butwouldn't feel like a piece of cake.

 

[random goat]

There are indeed a few people who always compare the two games.

However, I reckon (from all the threads related to this topic) that what most people want is no ZT2 style expansions but more balance between animals and scenery pieces (eg. 6 animals and 100-150 scenery pieces instead of what we have in the SA pack). Most people (including me) seem to be happy with the 'small' DLCs approach, as long as there is no compromise with the final number of animals included in the game. A good way to get past this potential compromise is indeed making less generic DLCs (Amazon, Andes, Cerrado, etc. - I'd love that-) but then again it will all ultimately depend on the time Frontier is willing to invest in Planet Zoo.

TLDR: Either way, what really matters isn't the theme or size of the packs/DLCs but the time Frontier will keep providing us with them.

 

[Swjosdotschka]

TLDR: Either way, what really matters isn't the theme or size of the packs/DLCs but the time Frontier will keep providing us with them.

That sums it up perfectly for me.

 

[NZFanatic]

I mentioned in another thread that given the overall reaction to the new DLC we might very well see Frontier change up their plans for the next one. It entirely depends on what content they can release in a DLC. For Australia, as an example, there isn't really a specific architecture style that is quintessentially Australian to warrant a full 200+ piece building set, so in that case it would make sense for there to be less in terms of scenery and set pieces and perhaps more animals.

Alternatively, another idea would be to make smaller DLC's with three animals and nothing else to cover less expansive themes. A "Monkey Pack" could include, say, a squirrel monkey, a baboon species, and I don't know, a langur from Asia (just to cover the three continents with monkeys), and cost maybe 6-8 Euros (I don't deal in Euros but it seems most of the board does, so that's my best guess). If that price is considered too high for just animals, the pack could also come with a couple of new enrichment items specific to primates as well just to give it more flesh.

Another option is to use a similar model for regions that are already well covered in the game. An Africa Pack doesn't need a full building set because we already have that. So instead, just give us three or four animals (black rhinoceros, baboon, meerkat, serval?) to round out the African roster. Same with Asia (blackbuck, sun bear, clouded leopard, siamang?).

It's hard to say what their actual plan is, but yeah, I think we'll see something a little different next time. If they are already working on the next DLC, which is possible and likely, then it probably isn't too late to take the feedback from the South America Pack and make some changes.

 

[paul78]

@PeppyPepp well said couldn’t agree more.

 

[WingardiumLevicoaster]

I know from Dev quotes for planet coaster.. it took 2 weeks minimum of multiple devs to make each flat ride. I wouldn't be surprised if animals are similar.

 

[VetGirl330]

My only problem with the mini dlcs is, that they aren't really marketed as mini-dlcs. If we had 5 Andean species and an Andean Pack it would be different than having a South America pack with just 5 animals.

Yes! This. Small frequent updates are great. It revives interest in the game and gives us new things to play with. The problem is Frontier's sloppy labeling of the DLCs and the expectations they create. A South American pack with 5 animals (only 2 out of 5 animals actually from South America) is disappointing. The fauna of an entire continent cannot be represented in just 5 animals. Most modern zoos create thematic areas, either geographic (e.g. Andes mountains) or biome (e.g. rainforest). In order to create a thematic area we need multiple species. Now for habitat animals we have 3 Central American, 1 Andes mountain, 1 South American Grasslands, 1 Amazon rainforest. I think the two most highly anticipated DLC since the release of the original game were Amazon pack and Australia pack. Well the newly announced South America pack falls utterly short of representing the amazing biodiversity of the Amazon. I am once again disappointed by the very eclectic, mis-marketed selection of animals that Frontier has given us. Frontier claims to do "research" on the animals in game, when its clear that they cannot even be bothered to read the wikipedia article, let alone any real research.

Marketing is all about managing expectations. I would be thrilled with a five animal "Central American" pack that included jaguar, white-headed capuchin monkey, Red-eyed green tree frog, Northern Tamandua or White-nosed Coati, and Ocelot. South America should be represented by three different packs: Amazon, Andes, and Cerrado/pampas/grasslands.

The arctic pack was equally confusing. Four animals could provide a decent representation of the arctic, but why include the Dall sheep? This animal does not hail from the arctic tundra. If Frontier wanted to include a caprid, why not the musk-ox, a true arctic denizen? The Dall sheep would far more appropriately belong in an Alpine pack or Yukon pack.

 

[nos93]

no as its the sam genre

 

[arafan]

[...] A South American pack with 5 animals (only 2 out of 5 animals actually from South America) is disappointing. The fauna of an entire continent cannot be represented in just 5 animals. [...] Now for habitat animals we have 3 Central American, 1 Andes mountain, 1 South American Grasslands, 1 Amazon rainforest. [...]

Marketing is all about managing expectations. I would be thrilled with a five animal "Central American" pack that included jaguar, white-headed capuchin monkey, Red-eyed green tree frog, Northern Tamandua or White-nosed Coati, and Ocelot. South America should be represented by three different packs: Amazon, Andes, and Cerrado/pampas/grasslands.

[...]

I disagree on that, Jaguar, Anteater and the Capuchin (at least there are two almost identical species, often even seen as the same species) occur in both South and Central America, but it's true that the Red-eyed tree frog is exclusive from Central American and the Llama can't be seen as a exclusively SA species. And Jaguars and Anteaters also occur in the Amazon and the Cerrado.
IMO it would be enough if they would label the actual DLC as "Mesoamerica" and give us later at least one other pack for SA terrestrial mammals.

 

[paul78]

As I mentioned in a previous post think about this. The game has other areas to cover could be by continent,region or specific area. Let’s say in two yrs or less we get 5-6 more packs. Would you rather have 15 South American animals out of 20-25 or would you rather have mixed and maybe get a meerkat a gibbon a penguin? They could do more but sooner or later game optimization gets jeopardized. So basically to squeeze out more animals you get subspecies and reskins instead of a kangaroo which requires all new game mechanics. Same for a otter a penguin and so on and so on.

 

[SilverGryphon]

I love the model of a smallish and not too expensive DLC every few months. I have a short attention span. I'd rather purchase additions in smaller, more frequent packs than go all in on a larger but more infrequent and expensive DLC/expansion (though if they ever added marine/aquatic stuff, I would rather see that as a full expansion because that's going to require a LOT of new mechanics and system-building behind the scenes).

I do agree, though, that the smaller DLC model lends itself better to more narrowly-focused selections of animals. I'd definitely prefer to get those more specific regions and get a few from each of those regions as opposed to cherry-picking a handful from across an entire continent. It'd be a great way to showcase some more unusual animals!

I'd also like to see at least an outline of a road map from the devs, just so we have an idea of what's going on. That said, I'm loving what the team's giving us as it is, and I love how closely the team has been communicating with the community. A couple of mobile games I play are having some serious dev communication issues at the moment and this is such a wonderful change from all that drama.

 

[NZFanatic]

When the Arctic Pack first dropped I had an idea in my head about how to handle DLC's, but it really depends on how long we can expect support for the game to last. Has there been any new content recently for Coaster, for example? It seemed to stop at 8 DLC's, and JWE has reached that point (though JWE will doubtless continue with the release of Jurassic World Dominion and the various other properties coming out).

I mean, let's assume, say, five years of support and content. If you do three DLC's in a year, which seems reasonable given we've gone from Christmas to Easter with two, then you could do it this way:

Year One: South America
- Andes.
- Amazon.
- Cerrado.

Year Two: North America
- Arctic 2.
- Great Plains.
- Central America.

Year Three: Africa
- Kopje.
- Congo.
- Birds (bonus, as Africa is already fairly well-covered).

Year Four: Asia
- India.
- Southeast Asia.
- Northern Asia.

Year Five: Odds and Ends
- Australia.
- Europe.
- Marine (seals, sea lions, penguins, not whales/dolphins).

You'd be looking at roughtly 4-6 animals per pack, depending on what other content they can throw in. I'd toss in Central America under the 'North America' umbrella simply because there's not an enormous amount you'd need to cover a zoo from North America. A bird pack, depending on what they actually end up doing with birds (I still advocate for glorified exhibit animals, but I know people are expecting the world), could have up to 10 species if they do it a certain way.

After all of this you'd be looking at around twice as many habitat animals as the base game and probably a good dozen or so new exhibit animals, maybe more if that's how they end up classing birds, which I think is reasonable.

Of course, as I said up-thread, I wouldn't be surprised in the slightest to learn that they are already rethinking how to do the next DLC. I doubt they were expecting backlash. I'm sure they're rather annoyed (since after the Arctic Pack, people complained about the animals being too simplistic - another bear, the wolf again, and two hoofed animals, and now we're complaining that the three animals people have been asking for (and the llama, I guess) aren't enough).

 

[NZFanatic]

(though if they ever added marine/aquatic stuff, I would rather see that as a full expansion because that's going to require a LOT of new mechanics and system-building behind the scenes).

Not necessarily. Assuming they go with zoo animals rather than theme park animals, all they need to implement that isn't already in the game is a form of underwater swimming. We can already make underwater viewing windows and place rocks/foliage underwater so nothing there needs to change drastically. The four animals could be, picked at random, the California sea lion, rockhopper penguin, southern sea otter, and the king penguin. They'd need to add some kind of water-based feeding system but again, that shouldn't be a huge leap - just create a food recepticle that goes in the water, and give zookeepers a way to access it (whether they swim, or whether the recepticle needs to be placed near the barrier or near the land so they can just toss it in or something).

Then it's just a matter of giving us some new "Marine-Themed" building pieces and maybe a couple of new food/drink stalls that sell marine-themed food and drinks.

 

[tigris115]

I see these comparisons as totally inevitable.

PZ very much has the Zoo Tycoon games within its DNA, meaning that talking about them within its context is totally appropriate. Just like with JW:E and JP:OG.

 

[AndyZoos]

I mentioned in another thread that given the overall reaction to the new DLC we might very well see Frontier change up their plans for the next one. It entirely depends on what content they can release in a DLC. For Australia, as an example, there isn't really a specific architecture style that is quintessentially Australian to warrant a full 200+ piece building set, so in that case it would make sense for there to be less in terms of scenery and set pieces and perhaps more animals.

Alternatively, another idea would be to make smaller DLC's with three animals and nothing else to cover less expansive themes. A "Monkey Pack" could include, say, a squirrel monkey, a baboon species, and I don't know, a langur from Asia (just to cover the three continents with monkeys), and cost maybe 6-8 Euros (I don't deal in Euros but it seems most of the board does, so that's my best guess). If that price is considered too high for just animals, the pack could also come with a couple of new enrichment items specific to primates as well just to give it more flesh.

Another option is to use a similar model for regions that are already well covered in the game. An Africa Pack doesn't need a full building set because we already have that. So instead, just give us three or four animals (black rhinoceros, baboon, meerkat, serval?) to round out the African roster. Same with Asia (blackbuck, sun bear, clouded leopard, siamang?).

It's hard to say what their actual plan is, but yeah, I think we'll see something a little different next time. If they are already working on the next DLC, which is possible and likely, then it probably isn't too late to take the feedback from the South America Pack and make some changes.

I wouldn't be surprised to see a shift as time goes on either. Not only based on the response from fans... But because there's only so many building sets that are required. Australia is a great example of that too. I wouldn't anticipate a full building set for that continent, but I would definitely anticipate some new scenery items and things to add to buildings as accents (e.g., outline of a kangaroo, maybe some slightly different windows or roofs).

There's only so many continents/regions you can throw out there before you run out of "building sets" that people are going to find interesting, so it's bound to happen anyway.

I've also been saying for a long while now (since before the game came out) that releasing DLC packs focused on taxonomical groups or specific "types" of animals would be a great way to flesh out variety. Imagine a set that adds "burrowing" as a game mechanic along with meerkats, prairie dogs, badgers, and the associated enrichment/habitat items (that would work for/with those animals but could also work with others as well). Or "Weasels of the World" with wolverines, North American river otter, Asian small-clawed otter, honey badger, and a European badger. Sure, it's not extensive... But you could cover some of the more iconic species from different regions. And that would free up a slot for region-specific DLC.

I just think a variety of DLC themes/set-ups is the way to go to be sure that we are getting the most variety possible out of the game.

When the Arctic Pack first dropped I had an idea in my head about how to handle DLC's, but it really depends on how long we can expect support for the game to last. Has there been any new content recently for Coaster, for example? It seemed to stop at 8 DLC's, and JWE has reached that point (though JWE will doubtless continue with the release of Jurassic World Dominion and the various other properties coming out).

I mean, let's assume, say, five years of support and content. If you do three DLC's in a year, which seems reasonable given we've gone from Christmas to Easter with two, then you could do it this way:

Year One: South America

• Andes.
• Amazon.
• Cerrado.

Year Two: North America

• Arctic 2.
• Great Plains.
• Central America.

Year Three: Africa

• Kopje.
• Congo.
• Birds (bonus, as Africa is already fairly well-covered).

Year Four: Asia

• India.
• Southeast Asia.
• Northern Asia.

Year Five: Odds and Ends

• Australia.
• Europe.
• Marine (seals, sea lions, penguins, not whales/dolphins).

You'd be looking at roughtly 4-6 animals per pack, depending on what other content they can throw in. I'd toss in Central America under the 'North America' umbrella simply because there's not an enormous amount you'd need to cover a zoo from North America. A bird pack, depending on what they actually end up doing with birds (I still advocate for glorified exhibit animals, but I know people are expecting the world), could have up to 10 species if they do it a certain way.

After all of this you'd be looking at around twice as many habitat animals as the base game and probably a good dozen or so new exhibit animals, maybe more if that's how they end up classing birds, which I think is reasonable.

Of course, as I said up-thread, I wouldn't be surprised in the slightest to learn that they are already rethinking how to do the next DLC. I doubt they were expecting backlash. I'm sure they're rather annoyed (since after the Arctic Pack, people complained about the animals being too simplistic - another bear, the wolf again, and two hoofed animals, and now we're complaining that the three animals people have been asking for (and the llama, I guess) aren't enough).

As much as I like this idea, I think it might work better if they were to split the different areas up. So, maybe in year one we could get Southeast Asia, and Australia. In year two, we get Great Plains of North America, India, and the Congo, etc. (Although, personally, I'd prefer that we get something other than Great Plains - maybe NA woodlands or wetlands? They cover the plains pretty good with the pronghorn and bison).

As for birds? I'd settle for "glorified exhibit" animals at this point. Especially if that allows you to add a wide variety of them. And after that first one, it would be cool to see some specific ones (tropical birds, birds of prey, etc).

 

[Swjosdotschka]

Just popping in to say: While I do think our feedback is considered and might very well change something (it's Frontier after all, they DO react to feedback): I will never assume that it happens with the next pack or the one after. I'm assuming we will follow the 3 month rule until the end of the year, no matter if corona does or does not delay something. The next two DLCs after the south america pack is probably already been working on and set in stone. With investors as well.

So IF our feedback will change something, we won't really see it before 2021. (Which, looking at current circumstances even outside Frontier, can't come soon enough -.- ).
But even if this seems frustrating, this is actually the bonus of the small packs now. We and they can still change something, because they have feedback now. It's not like in the past "here is one pack, here is another and now we are done with the game."

I still worry we will "only" get a Planet Coaster amount of tme support and not a Sims 4 time of support. Especially if it will go on like this, as obviously the zoo people (yes, including me) aren't satisfied with the same things the coaster people are. Frontier never assumed that, maybe thought this would be a game that sells itself. With the current rooster it doesn't seem like it.

So here is hoping that the message is heard that people complain because they want more of that game and not less. And that the numbres sooner or later are better than Plancos, to justify more dlcs, that fill the wholes the current dlc pattern is burrying. Because it's a bit like that: With the new animals and the generic choice, it all makes us miss more than we missed before. I for example, miss the howler monkey not because of the howler monkey (and other monkeys), but because a South America DLC without it is not South America for me.