Cannons need ammo Badly.

[madmann135]

Shouldn't things be balanced so weapons do the same overall amount of damage?

I don't want to have to return to station far more often with one type of weapon than another.

Or is there an assumption that needs to be built in about what percentage of shots will hit the target?

The difference with FPS is that you can find ammo on your way round or from people you shoot.

The situation I proposed is as improbable as they go as there is no one who can achieve a 100% accuracy rating, not even a computer can achieve that outside of a computer simulation.

This was to demonstrate the full damage potential on a target and the difference in potential damage between one weapon platform and another.

The weapons of Elite are designed along the philosophy "One weapon per job." This also goes against Elite's selling point of customization.
There are ways to balance weapons that do not involve hamstringing the weapon through magazine capacity and ammunition reserve. For instance the cannons are severely limited by being weakened two fold. First the projectile velocity is low to the point that the weapon best used at point blank ranges for small ships, and mid ranges for mid and large ships, but when used against large ships the weapon also needs ammunition to efficiently destroy the hull and repeat. Second is ammunition.

I have taken down 6 Anacondas in my ASP using multi-cannons and strategy, I could have engaged more but I ...had reasons that did not involve ammunition.

Elite Dangerous needs to rethink weapons and improve the variety of weapons as not everyone has the same combat style. Elite Dangerous also has to explain their weapons.

 

[Lazerus Artificial]

The situation I proposed is as improbable as they go as there is no one who can achieve a 100% accuracy rating, not even a computer can achieve that outside of a computer simulation.

This was to demonstrate the full damage potential on a target and the difference in potential damage between one weapon platform and another.

The weapons of Elite are designed along the philosophy "One weapon per job." This also goes against Elite's selling point of customization.
There are ways to balance weapons that do not involve hamstringing the weapon through magazine capacity and ammunition reserve. For instance the cannons are severely limited by being weakened two fold. First the projectile velocity is low to the point that the weapon best used at point blank ranges for small ships, and mid ranges for mid and large ships, but when used against large ships the weapon also needs ammunition to efficiently destroy the hull and repeat. Second is ammunition.

I have taken down 6 Anacondas in my ASP using multi-cannons and strategy, I could have engaged more but I ...had reasons that did not involve ammunition.

Elite Dangerous needs to rethink weapons and improve the variety of weapons as not everyone has the same combat style. Elite Dangerous also has to explain their weapons.

exactly. my combat style would be a well placed long range shot - so a railgun fits the best...but it would make me poor and i would have to rearm after each kill.
Multicannons are so...dogfighterish. I just dont like them.
I want to retreat and shoot a few shots while he chases me.

The one thing i cant understand is the design philosophy.
Cannons and Railguns were designed to be used against bigger targets.
But against bigger targets, a Multicannon is usually faster and more efficient, while a Railgun or Cannon is more efficient against a smaller target.
Multicannon can unleash a steady stream of bullets, and a large target is harder to miss. A small target is harder to hit, so a Multicannon would deal some damage there, but not as much as one well placed Railgun shell.
Atleast thats how i see it.

Also somehow i miss something between Multicannon and Cannon. Something that is not as fast as the Multicannon but still fast, with a better projectile speed than the Cannon.
The gap between those two feels huge.

 

[madmann135]

exactly. my combat style would be a well placed long range shot - so a railgun fits the best...but it would make me poor and i would have to rearm after each kill.
Multicannons are so...dogfighterish. I just dont like them.
I want to retreat and shoot a few shots while he chases me.

The one thing i cant understand is the design philosophy.
Cannons and Railguns were designed to be used against bigger targets.
But against bigger targets, a Multicannon is usually faster and more efficient, while a Railgun or Cannon is more efficient against a smaller target.
Multicannon can unleash a steady stream of bullets, and a large target is harder to miss. A small target is harder to hit, so a Multicannon would deal some damage there, but not as much as one well placed Railgun shell.
Atleast thats how i see it.

Also somehow i miss something between Multicannon and Cannon. Something that is not as fast as the Multicannon but still fast, with a better projectile speed than the Cannon.
The gap between those two feels huge.

I will not disagree with you. Multi-cannons are "overpowered" because they can be used for everything (that is if you adapt your combat strategy to use them), all other weapons are underpowered because they are situational weapons. This is probably to enforce the use of fleets but that is also bad design philosophy for two reasons.
1 - Not everyone will be able to use fleets.
2 - Not everyone has the same combat strategies.

For instance, me. If I had the chance I would use Cannons as my mainstay weapon but their ammo capacity and projectile speed are abysmal. Railguns need to be charged twice and have 'vapor' as ammo. My style of combat is hit and run while all the effective weapons in ED are "Saturate with fire." For me this makes combat in ED... overly difficult.

 

[Surly_Badger]

Some perspective

This is a GAU-30 gatling, from an A-10, next to a VW, to give you a sense of scale.
See that massive can on the back? That's ammo.

1,350 rounds at 3,900 rounds/minute: total firing time till dry: about 20 seconds. Total whup-azz: inestimable.

Total weight of the system is 2t.
Recoil from the GAU is 45Knewton; you could propel a ship in zero-G pretty well with it.



When I was a kid, I got to see a fix-mounted GAU-30 saw an armored personnel carrier in half with a short burst. (my school's military history club got a VIP tour of the US Army's Aberdeen Proving Ground)... it was kind of orgasmic.

 

[madmann135]

This is a GAU-30 gatling, from an A-10, next to a VW, to give you a sense of scale.
See that massive can on the back? That's ammo.

1,350 rounds at 3,900 rounds/minute: total firing time till dry: about 20 seconds. Total whup-azz: inestimable.

Total weight of the system is 2t.
Recoil from the GAU is 45Knewton; you could propel a ship in zero-G pretty well with it.

View attachment 17994

When I was a kid, I got to see a fix-mounted GAU-30 saw an armored personnel carrier in half with a short burst. (my school's military history club got a VIP tour of the US Army's Aberdeen Proving Ground)... it was kind of orgasmic.

Every time I see that picture I try to save it only to realize I already saved it.

You are forgetting a few impressive details such as the recoil of the GAU-8 is greater than the combined thrust of the aircraft's engines. This was a concern at first because they thought that the aircraft would decelerate to fast and drop out of the sky.

The GAU-8 and its aircraft the greatest fear of Tank crews as it was well known to literally cut tanks in half.

The GAU-8 is the one gun that has an aircraft as an accessory. The GAU-8 is also a structural part of the aircraft.

The GAU-8 uses two twin hydraulic motors pressurized from two independent hydraulic systems, If I remember the horsepower of each motor is around 70. Using one motor gives you a rate of fire of 2100 RPM, both gives you 4200 RPM.

The 30x173 is a very imposing round at around 11 inches long.

 

[Lazerus Artificial]

The GAU-8 and its aircraft the greatest fear of Tank crews as it was well known to literally cut tanks in half.

had to think about the video i found a few days ago xD
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n6LcJF12Kfo
The anaconda had no chance against that firepower^^
And still, Multicannons are the cheapest weaons...

Someday when i have enough money, i will try to make some profit with Railguns and Lasers

 

[madmann135]

had to think about the video i found a few days ago xD
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n6LcJF12Kfo
The anaconda had no chance against that firepower^^
And still, Multicannons are the cheapest weaons...

Someday when i have enough money, i will try to make some profit with Railguns and Lasers

That pilot did a common target kill tactic of using kinetic weapons on the reactor to destroy the target. I've done it and tat is a great way to save ammunition.

 

[Lazerus Artificial]

That pilot did a common target kill tactic of using kinetic weapons on the reactor to destroy the target. I've done it and tat is a great way to save ammunition.

exactly^^
but its alway said that Cannons and Railguns are sooo much better at this...i cant see why^^
It seems like when the shield is down, any kinetic weapon can nuke such a core pretty fast.
Only the shield seems to be a problem, and there i would not use a railgun or a cannon. lasers or multicannon, and then again, why should i use the cannon/railgun + laser combo, when the multicannon can do it too?
I guess it will take a while for me to understand the logic behind this^^

still its impressive to see what a few multicannons can do

 

[ZakNaZul]

There is some interesting math that i discover recently.
Lets take a closer look at similar class and type multicannon and cannon.
(all damage numbers is ignoring all resistances and from point-blank distance)
4A Gimballed Multi-Cannon: Damage per shot - 3.5(dps 23.3) ArmorPen - 68, Ammo 2190 (90/2100) Damage potential: 2190x3.5 = 7665
4B Gimballed Cannon: Damage per shot - 56.6(dps22.6) ArmorPen - 90, Ammo 105 (5/100) Damage potential: 105x56.6 = 5943
This is what everyone already seen thousand times. But here the thing - nobody accounts Armor piercing. And if i remember correctly how hull hardness vs armor piercing works than what we need to do to calculate damage with AP applied is divide Piercing by Hull Hardness and then multiply result to our damage. Like this:
Target is Type10 Defender - Hull hardness - 75
4A Gimballed Multi-Cannon damage potential against Type10: 68/75= ~0.9 | 7665x0.9=6949.6 damage potential
4B Gimballed Cannon damage potential against Type10 : 90/75= ~1.2 | 5943x1.2=7131.6 damage potential
That way Cannons are more effective than Multi-Cannon. Problem is THIS IS NOT WORKING THAT WAY. AP vs HRD do not increase damage output when AP is bigger than HRD. So we get this instead:
4B Gimballed Cannon damage potential against Type10 : 90/75= 1 | 5943x1=5943 damage potential
Which is WORSE than Multi-Cannon AFTER damage reduction after Hull hardness applied.

Let's pick another target. Enter - Sidewinder
Sidewinder - Hull hardness - 20 (180hp btw)
4A Gimballed Multi-Cannon damage potential against Sidewinder: 68/20= 3.4(actual 1) | 7665x3.4=26061 (but actually 7665) (also 3.5x3.4=11,9 per shot (79.2 DPS))
3 hits to kill sidewinder
4B Gimballed Cannon damage potential against Sidewinder : 90/20= 4.5(actual 1) | 5943x4.5=26743.5 (but actually 5943) (also 56.6x4.5=254.7 per shot)
1 hit to overkill sidewinder
Which is apparently would make sense. When someone travel space in tinfoil box and would be hit with an 420mm artillery shell it is only expected that said tinfoil box would pop like a balloon.
It is looks like it was intended to be balanced this way but something went wrong and we got what we have.


I think that what should be fixed is not ammo capacity but how AP vs HRD mechanics work. I am really would like to use cannons, but in that state as they right now - it disgust me. I just cant sacrifice so much efficiency for esthetic of using them. Sure if FDev remove damage cap from AP/HRD it will impact other weapons too, like AP and Rails, but using those require high skill, they use much more energy and heats like hell. But for the sake of lulz:

4A Plasma Accelerator against Sidewinder Damage per Shot: 125.2 Piercing: 100 100/20 = 5 125.2x5=626 damage per shot (125.2~ of which is Absolute Damage)
2B Rail Gun against Sidewinder Damage per Shot: 41.5 Piercing: 100 100/20 = 5 41.5x 5=207 damage per shot
obviously those are one-shots for stock sidewinder.
4A Plasma Accelerator against Type10 100/75=1.3 125.2x1.3= 162.76 damage per shot (32.5 Absolute damage) / 6.4 hits without HRP and Lightweight armor
2B Rail Gun against Type10 100/75=1.3 41.5x1.3= 53.95 damage per shot / 19.3 hits without HRP and Lightweight armor

If you think this would be OP - think again.

Fun Fact:
4A PA costs 13 793 600 cr , like 444,9 sidewinders (31 000 cr each).

I am sorry for my low-level English, i am quite limited by my language knowledge to what i can add to the topic. I am hope that someone take what i said into account and will develop the idea further. Or even deliver it to Fdev.


PS I messed up - sidewinder has only 108 hull integrity. 180hp belongs to Hauler. Hauler has same 20 HRD as sidewinder so just pretend that i was talking about Hauler

 

[Kissamies]

Premature condolenses to everyone responding to the OP, not realising it's from 2015.

 

[CMDR X]

Like (+1)

MOAR SHOCK CANNON AMMO TOO!!

 

[Chrystoph]

Is it bad that, when I read the title of this thread, all I can think about is the old Gauntlet video game.

" Valkyrie needs food badly!"