Capital ship kill stealing - A solution?

[Vincent Starson]

I'm wondering what the community thinks of the recent nerf to capital ships which treats them like a player so no one can steal their kills. This was done I assume to prevent players from sitting afk at a Capital ship with turrets.

The problem is if you're just using gimbals or fixed weapons, and trying to get the kill, you probably won't be rewarded the bond if the cap ship is firing on it too. The side effect of removing AFK turreters, is removing capital ship zones as a viable location to earn combat bonds for all players.

I feel kind of bad for the newer players that won't be able to experience the capital ship zones without leaving in frustration for a low intensity zone.

Is there another solution to the AFK problem?
What about a timer on the capital ship that forces it to warp out every 15-30 minutes for about 5 minutes then warps back in. This would prevent players from sitting within the ship afk, because they'll be destroyed when it moves to warp out AND it would prevent players from sitting afk near the ship as the spawns would overwhelm them when they left. Active players would still be able to enjoy the beautiful capital ship and fight alongside it. Please discuss any solutions to this problem and your thoughts on the matter.

Thank you for reading,

 

[lovely lovely]

Enemy to spawn out of range of Cap Ship weapons

 

[Arubeto]

I don't perceive it as "kill stealing". The capital ship is exactly that: a capital ship. It's just natural that it gets credit for most kills, since it actually does the most damage. Artificially boosting players credits somehow won't do it justice and feels way to "gamey" to me.

Not every game play situation should solely be judged by how much money players can make in short time. I'd rather see a change in mentality with many players here that witnessing and participating in a exhilarating space fight might in some cases be enough reward to enter a high intensity conflict zone with a capital ship. It doesn't always have to come down the amount of cash one can make.

 

[Vincent Starson]

I don't perceive it as "kill stealing". The capital ship is exactly that: a capital ship. It's just natural that it gets credit for most kills, since it actually does the most damage. Artificially boosting players credits somehow won't do it justice and feels way to "gamey" to me.

Not every game play situation should solely be judged by how much money players can make in short time. I'd rather see a change in mentality with many players here that witnessing and participating in a exhilarating space fight might in some cases be enough reward to enter a high intensity conflict zone with a capital ship. It doesn't always have to come down the amount of cash one can make.

Is the solution to reduce combat bond reward amounts then? When I was doing 90% of the damage and the cap ship turned it's flak turrets on it at the last 10% the cap ship got the kill. It's not about % of damage at all, just if the cap ship shoots it last and because of the flak turrets and pulse turrets on the cap ship it's most likely to get the last hit.

What would be an acceptable amount of credits per hour?

 

[Arubeto]

Is the solution to reduce combat bond reward amounts then? When I was doing 90% of the damage and the cap ship turned it's flak turrets on it at the last 10% the cap ship got the kill. It's not about % of damage at all, just if the cap ship shoots it last and because of the flak turrets and pulse turrets on the cap ship it's most likely to get the last hit.

What would be an acceptable amount of credits per hour?

IMHO you didn't get the point about what I tried to say. For me their is no "acceptable amount of credits per hour" threshold. I am in for the fun of flying a space ship and fighting in a battleground with dozens of other fighters and a huge intimidating and actually dangerous capital ship. I like the game for the same reason I liked Tie Fighter and X-Wing and Wing Commander in the past. Not to become rich, but to enjoy the actual game play!
Tbh., I don't really care how much money I get from fighting in a CZ, there are other ways to get rich - like trading - so I am totally happy with CZ satisfying the need for excitement, not the need for becoming rich.

 

[Mephane]

Solution: Award fractional combat bonds proportional to your contribution to the total of all damage you did to the target's hull and subsystems.
Result: You get only half a combat bond if the capital ship does half the work, but that would be fair and fit into the notion that it is easier, but you are paid less, with such support around.

 

[Vincent Starson]

IMHO you didn't get the point about what I tried to say. For me their is no "acceptable amount of credits per hour" threshold. I am in for the fun of flying a space ship and fighting in a battleground with dozens of other fighters and a huge intimidating and actually dangerous capital ship. I like the game for the same reason I liked Tie Fighter and X-Wing and Wing Commander in the past. Not to become rich, but to enjoy the actual game play!
Tbh., I don't really care how much money I get from fighting in a CZ, there are other ways to get rich - like trading - so I am totally happy with CZ satisfying the need for excitement, not the need for becoming rich.

Thank you for replying. I'm glad you find it fun. But let's be realistic, for myself and probably many other players they will not enjoy it as much as you do. To shoot at something for a couple minutes and then have the cap ship turn it's attention on it at the last second and steal the bond will force most players to the low intensity combat zones. This is a shame because as you say yourself, the capital ship zone is very fun to play in.

 

[Night Fury]

Solution: Award fractional combat bonds proportional to your contribution to the total of all damage you did to the target's hull and subsystems.
Result: You get only half a combat bond if the capital ship does half the work, but that would be fair and fit into the notion that it is easier, but you are paid less, with such support around.

finally someone makes a constructive suggestion

 

[Vincent Starson]

Solution: Award fractional combat bonds proportional to your contribution to the total of all damage you did to the target's hull and subsystems.
Result: You get only half a combat bond if the capital ship does half the work, but that would be fair and fit into the notion that it is easier, but you are paid less, with such support around.

I like this idea, but what about the kill counting towards your combat rating? Should that be reduced as well?

 

[Arubeto]

Thank you for replying. I'm glad you find it fun. But let's be realistic, for myself and probably many other players they will not enjoy it as much as you do. To shoot at something for a couple minutes and then have the cap ship turn it's attention on it at the last second and steal the bond will force most players to the low intensity combat zones. This is a shame because as you say yourself, the capital ship zone is very fun to play in.

I see and understand your reasoning, but I don't agree with it.

If you carefully look at what you just wrote, you see that you are kind of contradicting yourself, too:

...for myself and probably many other players they will not enjoy it as much as you do...
...the capital ship zone is very fun to play in....

Yes, they are fun to play in, people should just stop judging every game play mechanic by the amount of money you can make and get a little less obsessed with making credits in this game all the time. I see that it's an important part and a great motivation to get bigger ships, but reducing your whole motivation just to credit grinding doesn't give the scope and thematic of this game justice.

The game already has so much more to offer (supporting factions to increase their influence, dog fighting for the fun of it, exploring fascinating celestial bodies etc.) and will even provide much more interesting game play with the updates to come that just focusing on maximizing your credit yield all the time is bound to become dull over time.

 

[Mephane]

I like this idea, but what about the kill counting towards your combat rating? Should that be reduced as well?

Well it could increase the kill count by 1, but the (hidden) rating would increase by a fraction of what the target is worth (not all kills are equal, rank is not based on the actual kill count).

 

[Vincent Starson]

I see and understand your reasoning, but I don't agree with it.

If you carefully look at what you just wrote, you see that you are kind of contradicting yourself, too:



Yes, they are fun to play in, people should just get a little less obsessed with making money in this game all the time. I see that it's an important part and a great motivation to get bigger ships, but reducing your whole motivation just to credit grinding doesn't give the scope and thematic of this game justice. The game already has so much more to offer (supporting factions to increase their influence, dog fighting for the fun of it, exploring fascinating celestial bodies etc.) that just focusing on maximizing your credit yield all the time is bound to become dull over time.

I meant that they were fun to play in back when you were rewarded for participating. Listen, I already have an Anaconda, A-Fit python, smaller a-fitted ships and about 100 mill in the bank. I don't care about credits anymore. I do care about being rewarded for my efforts, and that's currently not happening in capital ship zones.

I would like to contribute to community goals, and I'm sure others would to, by playing in these capital ship zones. You just can't do that right now while contributing meaningfully. It's way better to go to a low intensity conflict right now and so all players are missing out.

 

[avow555]

If the capital ships actually moved through the zone instead of sitting static the problem would be resolved.

 

[Anarky]

I'm so glad you made this topic. I was about to make a similar one, but it would have been far less eloquent, not constructive at all, and much more pitchforks and torches lets burn down FD's offices for incompetency.

I think how the bugged Imperial capital ship was at the beginning of April is fine. It did minimal damage. Looked pretty, didn't really blow anything up. I can see how that would ruin immersion though, but at least it would be a quick fix which allowed people to fight in a conflict zone with a capital ship. I'd rather have my immersion broken by a weak capital ship than my fun ruined by one which steals all my kills, and thus forces me out of the zone, or even out of the game.

Other suggestions are good, not sure how easy it would be to implement them though. At least the above could be a quick fix while they think of something else to do.

 

[Jaeger]

I heard that going AFK with a few turrets was a key ingredient/method in the race to Elite.

How else are we now supposed to make to Elite combat rating?

 

[Poseidal]

I meant that they were fun to play in back when you were rewarded for participating.

If the Capital ship does most of the killing, it sounds like you are getting your reward for participating.

 

[Arubeto]

I meant that they were fun to play in back when you were rewarded for participating. Listen, I already have an Anaconda, A-Fit python, smaller a-fitted ships and about 100 mill in the bank. I don't care about credits anymore. I do care about being rewarded for my efforts, and that's currently not happening in capital ship zones.

I would like to contribute to community goals, and I'm sure others would to, by playing in these capital ship zones. You just can't do that right now while contributing meaningfully. It's way better to go to a low intensity conflict right now and so all players are missing out.

Yes, the reason of not being able to contribute to CG since they are connected to the amount of cash you make via handing in bonds is quite valid, I suppose.

I just keep posting since I am afraid I somehow expressed my view somewhat incomprehensible. You keep arguing that the only reward making the game fun is a monetary reward. You want to be "rewarded for your efforts". But shouldn't just playing the game be reward enough in some instances? I mean, Tie Fighter was fun without any notion of money or credits, wasn't it? Why can't people enjoy the same parts they enjoyed in Tie Fighter and Wing Commander in Elite, too? Namely, the flying and shooting, not the handing in of combat bonds to receive money.

I have neither an Anaconda nor a Python, but I honestly don't need one so badly. I can enjoy most of what the game has to offer in my Clipper just as well. It shoots, flies, lands and hyperjumps, too.

Perhaps it all comes down to why people play this game: I was under the - perhaps naive - impression that people where playing Elite to enjoy the game, but many people seem instead be totally focused on the meta game.

Normally I try to ignore that and say to myself "to everyone as he or she likes it best", but in this case it actually effects the way I am enjoying the game. I like not being the focus of the galaxy, not receiving all the money and merits for a fight where many larger and stronger ships than me were involved - including a capital ship - and did much more damage than me. I like being a small cogwheel in a larger machine in this fascinating galaxy. Being rewarded for kills I didn't perform kind of destroys this immersion/illusion.

Perhaps the idea with rewards being tied to the damage one did are indeed the best solution for everyone.

- - - Updated - - -

I'm so glad you made this topic. I was about to make a similar one, but it would have been far less eloquent, not constructive at all, and much more pitchforks and torches lets burn down FD's offices for incompetency.

I think how the bugged Imperial capital ship was at the beginning of April is fine. It did minimal damage. Looked pretty, didn't really blow anything up. I can see how that would ruin immersion though, but at least it would be a quick fix which allowed people to fight in a conflict zone with a capital ship. I'd rather have my immersion broken by a weak capital ship than my fun ruined by one which steals all my kills, and thus forces me out of the zone, or even out of the game.

Other suggestions are good, not sure how easy it would be to implement them though. At least the above could be a quick fix while they think of something else to do.

That's exactly what I don't want to see. Immersion was always a big topic in Elite: Dangerous, in some interviews David Braben stated that he wanted to make the game as immersive as possible. That's what I bought into when I became beta backer. That's what interested me in the game.

Breaking this immersion just for people to get money easier is a way I hope FD will never take.

 

[Vincent Starson]

If the Capital ship does most of the killing, it sounds like you are getting your reward for participating.

I'm not sure what you mean exactly. If I do most of the damage to a ship, taking shields down and 90% of it's hull, and then the cap ship turns it's attention to it on the last few percent so I don't get a combat bond, how is that being rewarded?

So is what you are all saying is that we should just enjoy the capital ship taking all the combat bonds and kills. No one should enter these high intensity conflict zones with capital ships to earn combat bonds? Is it truly the death of earning combat bonds in capital ship zones?

Surely there must be some compromise we can mostly agree on. Suggestions so far:

• Reducing the combat bond based on damage contributed, and reducing the combat rating received.
• Have the cap ship move around the zone.
• Have the cap ship warp out periodically.

 

[Anarky]

I'm not sure what you mean exactly. If I do most of the damage to a ship, taking shields down and 90% of it's hull, and then the cap ship turns it's attention to it on the last few percent so I don't get a combat bond, how is that being rewarded?

So is what you are all saying is that we should just enjoy the capital ship taking all the combat bonds and kills. No one should enter these high intensity conflict zones with capital ships to earn combat bonds? Is it truly the death of earning combat bonds in capital ship zones?

Surely there must be some compromise we can mostly agree on. Suggestions so far:

• Reducing the combat bond based on damage contributed, and reducing the combat rating received.
• Have the cap ship move around the zone.
• Have the cap ship warp out periodically.

You are totally correct and reasonable. The people against it are white knighting and don't have a leg to stand on. Don't let the die-hard fanboys bother you.

 

[PhazonAran]

I'm not sure what you mean exactly. If I do most of the damage to a ship, taking shields down and 90% of it's hull, and then the cap ship turns it's attention to it on the last few percent so I don't get a combat bond, how is that being rewarded?

So is what you are all saying is that we should just enjoy the capital ship taking all the combat bonds and kills. No one should enter these high intensity conflict zones with capital ships to earn combat bonds? Is it truly the death of earning combat bonds in capital ship zones?

Surely there must be some compromise we can mostly agree on. Suggestions so far:

• Reducing the combat bond based on damage contributed, and reducing the combat rating received.
• Have the cap ship move around the zone.
• Have the cap ship warp out periodically.

Introduce "you saved my life !" bonds ?